The Rohrbaugh Forum

Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: JoshA on October 22, 2014, 05:49:20 PM

Title: Tales From The Morgue~interesting read about ballistics ALSO: Greg Ellifaz data
Post by: JoshA on October 22, 2014, 05:49:20 PM
Well I happened onto another potentially controversial site that discusses in some detail the effects of lead overdoses in different calibers. I must admit that the character writing the said blog/forum is a little rough and  lacks a bit of couth (sorry if you are on this forum  ::) ) in a few questionable comments made, but what would you expect from a guy that works in a morgue in Atlanta (sorry if you work in a morgue in Atlanta  ::) ). He is probably gonna be a little different. That being said, he seems to be a very straight shooter and all in all a fairly experienced and intelligent fellow. I wouldn't mind meeting him (as long as I'm not laying on his table).

It has no graphic pics. It is generally about a mortician's opinion of the best calibers to defend your life (or another innocent parties life) in the event you were forced to do so. It holds great in-sites (literally) to what happens in the event that someone is shot by various calibers. Things that could help save our lives if ever engaged in a gun battle. We all know the dangers of a critically wounded BG who is still shooting and endangering you and your family. It would be good to narrow the odds of that happening if possible IMO. So, for what it's worth I highly recommend at least checking out some of what the fellow has to say.

I will say that he starts out anti .380/9 mm, and when cross examined close to the end he must ... Well I'll just let you check it out.

Please post your thoughts, positive or negative.


http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: tracker on October 22, 2014, 06:32:14 PM
Interesting source perspective but way too much information. However, I agree with his conclusions on the shotgun, rifle, and pistol priority of damage potential. The .357s are too loud to consider for unprotected hearing in self defense situations. Bigger is better is not a novel concept.

If I had to carry one pistol in a holster outside of the pocket it would be my Glock 36.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 22, 2014, 08:53:42 PM
Posted this initially in the wrong thread.  :-[


Wow. That is a lot.

I see several seeming logic problems, but what's the bottom line? He prefers .45 (presumably) ACP.

Fair enough, can't find fault with that.

Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 22, 2014, 09:19:26 PM
Interesting source perspective but way too much information. However, I agree with his conclusions on the shotgun, rifle, and pistol priority of damage potential. The .357s are too loud to consider for unprotected hearing in self defense situations. Bigger is better is not a novel concept.

If I had to carry one pistol in a holster outside of the pocket it would be my Glock 36.

I have a 36 Tracker. Do you feel the necessity to carry a spare mag?  I like my 36, but wrestle with whether or not I need a spare mag and I kinda hate a Glock mag in the pocket. Much prefer the 1911 style mags in the front pocket, but like the Glock platform.

Whatcha think? Extra mag or is 7 enough?

I agree that .357 is loud. I have been playing with the idea of carrying .357 sig, but it is so loud that even with protection on I feel stunned after shooting a box.

Currently hanging the G27 IWB and seriously looking into that grip reduction you mentioned.

One thing that does amaze me about the Austrian workhorse is how light it is when stacked up against the comp. I love the beauty of so many other gun makers, but just a quick comparison of rounds, height, weight, price, reliability, trigger reset, accessories (notice I didn't say width) and it's easy to see why they have become so popular.  I'm not really a fanboy, nor do I frequent their forum to drink the kool aid, but they have earned some respect.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 22, 2014, 09:29:26 PM
Posted this initially in the wrong thread.  :-[


Wow. That is a lot.

I see several seeming logic problems, but what's the bottom line? He prefers .45 (presumably) ACP.

Fair enough, can't find fault with that.

IMO he boils it down to that he thinks certain lighter calibers tend to glance off of bone that tend to protect the primary targets thus limiting their potential ability to stop a threat in a quick fashion. I will still carry 9 personally when the occasion arises, but the rounds will dumped if the threat doesn't stop and I think that is the point.

He said he found that the heavier bullets pierce the bones better, so I like your idea of a 147 gr if I'm carrying a 9 personally. It kinda flies in the face of the light and fast to expand theory. This is important, but not if it doesn't penetrate first according to this and the other excellent link you posted a few weeks ago.

I still don't feel as though I have arrived at a conclusive place, but rather feel like I understand the complexity of trying to stop the most complex creature on the face of the planet with a handgun a little more.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: tracker on October 22, 2014, 09:31:31 PM
You can carry an extra mag in a belt clip and not in your pocket. If you carry a Glock 36 on or inside your belt why not carry an extra mag. However, 6+1 will probably be enough with a Glock 36 and, if not, you're  in over your head anyway.

In all honesty I suggest you make a decision and stop screwing around with it.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 23, 2014, 11:21:55 PM
You can carry an extra mag in a belt clip and not in your pocket. If you carry a Glock 36 on or inside your belt why not carry an extra mag. However, 6+1 will probably be enough with a Glock 36 and, if not, you're  in over your head anyway.

In all honesty I suggest you make a decision and stop screwing around with it.

Ha! I agree. Now what to decide? Glock 27. That should do it for IWB. I can't find a better fit for me until January when Glock releases the single stack. I guess it may be offered in 9 and 40. I shoot 40 ok, so I guess I'll stick with 40 until I get reassurance on the 9mm cartridge. Honestly since I'm just a civilian I would probably be ok with 9mm. There I go again.

If I'm in summer months I am content with the solo.

Sunday's I tend to want the r9 sized gun so I will go with the Kahr 380 until my r9 is fixed. There. Are ya happy? Almost as bad as a women aren't i? Move the couch here. Move the picture there. 9mm is great. I think I'll carry my 45. Lol. Sorry fellas.

So what do you carry Tracker? Are you a one pistol, one caliber man? Never go back and forth about what's best?
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: tracker on October 23, 2014, 11:33:35 PM

Respectfully, no comment. There is no one answer for everyone and there are many factors in different locations and situations.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 24, 2014, 03:09:46 PM
Oh good I feel better then. I feel the same way, except I haven't had as long as some of you more seasoned gentlemen to sort some of this stuff out.

I'm getting there.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: tracker on October 24, 2014, 06:05:56 PM
I think you are; keep in mind that Bernie Goetz dropped four of them on the subway with five shots from an inexpensive Airweight .38 spl.. As noted here earlier I doubt that he had fired that gun more than a few times at the range, if any, because he lived in N.Y. City. He was just frustrated and took the law into his own hands to protect himself. The important thing is just pick something and go with it instead of paralysis by analysis.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 24, 2014, 08:03:00 PM
Sounds like great advice Tracker.

I'm settling in on my selection. I think I have finally looked at ALMOST all plausible options and like where I am. Feel like the 2 main carry pieces i use are very reliable. The pocket option Kahr 380 is a tad iffy, but I am working on the right ammo and seem to be getting confidence in it until I can get the R9 100%.

Thanks for the words of wisdom.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: tracker on October 24, 2014, 08:53:33 PM

The problem, as I see it, is that everything in the pocket carry option without the R9 is a compromise on weight, size, caliber, etc.. There is no good answer and maybe the Glock 43, if produced, will serve to fill the void. Many of the previously noted carry guns in the informal survey leaned toward the heavier caliber options which tells me that most of the owners fall into the professional ranks and are accustomed to strapping one on every day. The majority of us do not fit into that category.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 24, 2014, 08:59:54 PM
I agree about the compromise without the R9. Looking forward to hopefully getting it repaired soonish. The CW 380 shoots great, but I'm leery of the caliber and the the overall reliability.


Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: the_skunk on October 24, 2014, 09:24:07 PM
Ghee Whiz

Now I know that a 12 gauge is great, and will try and get one for pocket carry - maybe a derringer??

But back in the real world of Self Defense I prefer 'situational awareness', a pocket gun that is reliable, comes out fast, and I won't shoot myself. My present pick is a 32 seecamp based on size, and safety. The R9 is also a great gun. The plastic striker fired guns just don't pass the safety test for me.

As to a car gun, a 9mm or a 45 acp, in a glove compartment make sense
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: tracker on October 24, 2014, 09:36:18 PM

As I said earlier, to each his own, but a .32 is a very lightweight caliber for self defense; better than nothing. If you just love a Seecamp that is a different matter.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 24, 2014, 09:59:20 PM
I really agree that .32 is small.

I once read how LW Seecamp saved his life on the Russian front or something with his .32 in a hand to hand combat situation, but I think he used it on his foe in a head shot.

Not really where I want to have to be if I could help it through some "situational awareness". The recent hospital shooting involved 2 .32 caliber handguns in a small room and I think that's about all the Dr could smuggle undercover, but his attacker had to be subdued after taking 3 shots from a Seecamp.

I think that if I am aware of that situation I should avoid it just as a dark alley or a group of suspicious characters.

If I am doing what I can do and I am still outgunned I figure i did what I could. If I have no weapon or is really too small or a jambo special then I'm mad at me.

But to each his own is right. That's just my thought. I even own a .25 beretta jet fire. I don't know why, but it is a cool little gun. Not going into the jungle with me though.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: tracker on October 24, 2014, 10:13:09 PM

I agree completely, Josh. Why would anyone carry a .32 of any kind if they own a functional R9?
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 24, 2014, 11:43:15 PM
Josh,

I got a chuckle from Tracker's advice. I think I offered essentially the same in our PM chats, in re: your G27. Pick one and be done.

-That said, (as I did) I do get the "hobby" of it. As I know that you do too.

I enjoy reading, researching, and talking about this stuff. As I know that you do too.

We just always need to separate that from what we actually do every day. Every day we need to be properly prepared to act appropriately.

I saw a couple of cars today, at the evidence impound, riddled with bullet holes. I do not know what caliber they were. One looked like 9mm/.40 and one like .45 (they were bigger. :-\ )

The shooting (meaning the effectiveness) with the smaller shots (8, I think) was worse. The shooting with the bigger shots (6?) was better. There was blood on the driver's seat with the larger rounds. I don't think that says anything about caliber. The shooting just looked better. So that said to me, you need to be able to shoot as well (and as fast) as you can.

I have absolutely no idea what the circumstances were. I was only looking at sheet metal. I have ZERO facts.

Yesterday in one of the outer boros of NYC a nut hacked one kid with a hatchet and bashed in another kid's skull. Finally a couple of guys got there and put the nut down. The 9mm worked fine for that. A lot of rounds were fired. I don't know that it was because so many were specifically required to end the threat, or (more probably) because there were multiple officers firing so the round count goes up quickly. -If you fire three rounds, that doesn't seem crazy. If five officers are on scene and do the same (since there can be no established plan, prior to an event that no one can foresee) suddenly it sounds bad... but it's exactly the same.

That's a BIG part of the problem with any caliber-effectiveness research.

As I told you, in semis I'm a 9mm/.45 ACP guy. In revolvers I like .38 Special.

Beyond that, it's train oneself physically and (more importantly) mentally. I am a firm believer (based on my personal experience) that, if you do this, you will likely never be called upon to prove it. The predators very quickly size-up who they can take and who they can't.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 25, 2014, 12:07:15 AM
Thanks Douglas. You are right. I think you two are collaborating  8)

Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 25, 2014, 12:22:17 AM
I should be so lucky.

I am not in his class.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 25, 2014, 12:39:59 AM
I don't know what class Tracker is in, but he's a very nice guy like yourself IMO.  Thanks to both of ya for the helps and opinions.

Carrying the .38 yet Douglas?
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 25, 2014, 12:45:13 AM
Never mind the snubbie question. I just saw that you are on hight alert there and have gone to the G19 under the LCR heading.

What's this about taking out officers even off duty? ? ?

Who is behind that? Sorry don't listen to much news.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 25, 2014, 01:02:29 AM
Yeah, some of these outfits in the middle east produce very high quality digital information bulletins.

I mean sharp! Like, if you get People Magazine online, or the like.

They have been encouraging their followers and marginal sympathizers to attack military and law enforcement personnel and their families worldwide, most especially in Europe and North America. -Stuff like, "If you don't have explosives, shoot them. If you don't have a gun, stab them, or smash their heads with a rock. Run them down with your car."

I've read these publications.

Last week a couple of Canadian military members were run down with a car. A baby in Jerusalem was killed the same way.

Yesterday those uniformed NYPD officers were attacked on the street in broad daylight by a guy with a hand axe.

Canada has apparently directed their military personnel not to wear their uniforms off duty. I've received updates about public behavior (-as in, maybe I shouldn't eat lunch in public, etc.)

Just coming and going around town, things may have changed. A simple robbery is just one part of the equation these days.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Richard S on October 25, 2014, 11:40:04 AM
Douglas:

The hatchet attack on the uniformed NYPD officers by that idiot Islamic extremist shows once again the ever present dangers that you and your colleagues face each day in your service to our society.  My hat is off to you.

This ISIS (or ISIL) group of fanatics with their "wannabe converts" and their absurdly false claims to be acting in the name of religious faith bring to mind something once written by Eric Hoffer:

There are similarities between absolute power and absolute faith: a demand for absolute obedience, a readiness to attempt the impossible, a bias for simple solutions to cut the knot rather than unravel it, the viewing of compromise as surrender. Both absolute power and absolute faith are instruments of dehumanization. Hence, absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power.

     Eric Hoffer, The New York Times Magazine, April 25, 1971

Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: tracker on October 25, 2014, 12:28:17 PM

I recall this tragic incident with a British soldier in London last year. Certainly not a new tactic for the crazies but it was one of the first against targeted uniformed personnel in my recollection. This one in May of last year could have been ISIS related. Carry adequate weapons/ammo and always stay alert comes through loud and clear against these fanatics.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-murdered-london-terroism-suspected-article-1.1351640
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 25, 2014, 12:44:54 PM
Richard's erudite response sent me Googling Eric Hoffer. Sounds like an interesting guy, and these are certainly "interesting times."

Even still, often I feel like it's "same circus, different clowns." It was just about two years ago, in the same neighborhood as the hatchet guy, we had a nut walk up out of the blue and stab one of our guys in the face. Our guy handled it, DRT, but will never see out of that eye again.

No agenda, no organization, just spontaneously targeted a uniform. The more things change...  :-\
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: the_skunk on October 25, 2014, 04:06:11 PM

As I said earlier, to each his own, but a .32 is a very lightweight caliber for self defense; better than nothing. If you just love a Seecamp that is a different matter.

Nope - I don't love the Seecamp. Most seecamp owners just like the looks.

Myself - I carry everyday, and the gun just slips into my pocket. When I couldn't get the Silvertips, I used crap ammo, and the seecamp was too undependable, so I bought a SW 642, but it's clunker. Then I bought a Sig 232, which eventually became dependable. Next it was a Kimber Ultra 9mm.

The Seecamp pros:  --- It's safe, small, dependable, and comes into action fast.

The Seecamp cons: --- The ammo is impossible to find.

As far as a .32 cal, it's strictly a 5 ft shot to the head.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 25, 2014, 06:12:33 PM
Yeah, some of these outfits in the middle east produce very high quality digital information bulletins.

I mean sharp! Like, if you get People Magazine online, or the like.

They have been encouraging their followers and marginal sympathizers to attack military and law enforcement personnel and their families worldwide, most especially in Europe and North America. -Stuff like, "If you don't have explosives, shoot them. If you don't have a gun, stab them, or smash their heads with a rock. Run them down with your car."

I've read these publications.

Last week a couple of Canadian military members were run down with a car. A baby in Jerusalem was killed the same way.

Yesterday those uniformed NYPD officers were attacked on the street in broad daylight by a guy with a hand axe.

Canada has apparently directed their military personnel not to wear their uniforms off duty. I've received updates about public behavior (-as in, maybe I shouldn't eat lunch in public, etc.)

Just coming and going around town, things may have changed. A simple robbery is just one part of the equation these days.

This is absolutely insane. I'm sorry I hadn't heard of this stuff. I wouldn't doubt if more go undercover.

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty ~ TJ
 
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 25, 2014, 06:14:26 PM
Douglas:

The hatchet attack on the uniformed NYPD officers by that idiot Islamic extremist shows once again the ever present dangers that you and your colleagues face each day in your service to our society.  My hat is off to you.


+1
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Richard S on October 25, 2014, 09:06:26 PM
... Eric Hoffer. Sounds like an interesting guy, and these are certainly "interesting times."

Even still, often I feel like it's "same circus, different clowns." It was just about two years ago, in the same neighborhood as the hatchet guy, we had a nut walk up out of the blue and stab one of our guys in the face. Our guy handled it, DRT, but will never see out of that eye again.

No agenda, no organization, just spontaneously targeted a uniform. The more things change...  :-\

That is spot on the mark.  It is the "same circus, different clowns."  That is one message in Hoffer's book, The True Believer.  I first read that book in 1956 when I was a young Senate staffer working my way through GWU at night.  I learned that then President Eisenhower had given copies of the book to members of his Cabinet with instructions that they should read it.  I decided that I should read it as well.  It changed my entire outlook on the broad sweep of history and the religious and political mass movements that so often shape it.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 26, 2014, 06:19:02 PM
Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty ~ TJ

I wish he meant that about the "outside" threats we face currently.

But, we have a governor and a mayor here who are not believers in the fundamental principles of our nation about whom those words ring more true for me.  :(
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: tracker on October 26, 2014, 09:15:57 PM
Well said, Douglas, but New York is not the only state that is in a sad state of affairs and it starts in the District of Corruption.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 26, 2014, 10:37:49 PM
Well said, Douglas, but New York is not the only state that is in a sad state of affairs and it starts in the District of Corruption.

Yes but still, we often talk about finding a nice place, like we have here, on the river in Chattanooga or Knoxville so that we might be left alone in our later years. 8)
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Richard S on October 27, 2014, 08:55:28 AM
Well said, Douglas, but New York is not the only state that is in a sad state of affairs and it starts in the District of Corruption.

Yes but still, we often talk about finding a nice place, like we have here, on the river in Chattanooga or Knoxville so that we might be left alone in our later years. 8)

Come on down. Chattanooga and Knoxville are good but the Great Smoky Mountains are even better if you want to be left alone. 😎
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 27, 2014, 09:48:14 AM
Might be a little remote for us. We like to be able to take a stroll and get some dinner, or groceries, etc.

-And I think my days of getting out on the roof myself, or tending the lawn are over. I did that for many years and find that our current situation is much more to my liking.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 27, 2014, 11:56:14 AM
Compared to living in New York City I imagine being in Knoxville or Chattanooga would be the equivalent of most of us being left alone. Probably a relative thing. All about ratios I would imagine : )

I've been to Tennessee (actually had our honeymoon in gatlinburg and returned many times since) but I have not made it to New York City yet. It is definitely on my bucket list.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 27, 2014, 02:05:22 PM
We love it here. I grew up here and have no desire to leave, except for the politics. That, it seems, just gets worse and worse, more and more intrusive.

So when I say, "left alone" that's what I'm thinking about, not by people in general. People (in general) aren't a problem.

We like urban. We like the convenience, we the like services, we like the options. Looking ahead, access to medical care may (as to most) be important to us. That's why I look around at the types of places I mentioned. We've web-searched those downtowns, plus Louisville, Vicksburg, etc.

Who knows what the future will bring?
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Richard S on October 27, 2014, 02:41:27 PM
Well . . . we're certainly not urban around here at Critter Creek.

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/RichardS/Critter%20Creek%20Photographs/0ad2dcef-9f11-4088-93a2-90ad7bee6b5a_zpsd7b3186b.jpg)
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: JoshA on October 27, 2014, 03:37:17 PM
Ha. You could say that again Richard! Beautiful!!

I like Indy for the reasons you describe liking New York Douglas, but more conservative politics and the rural areas make for good escapes to live in.

If we want very suburban chicago is just 2.5 hrs away for a nice weekend getaway.

I have a feeling that once New York is in the blood it would be hard to leave though. Probably have family around too. That makes thing even more complicated I imagine.

Indy works for me and mine... For now : )
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 27, 2014, 03:39:07 PM
Holy cats Richard!

Looks like a long walk if I run out of tonic water!  ;D
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Richard S on October 27, 2014, 03:55:23 PM
Yes, it can be a long haul to the trading post for tonic water, but dinner can sometimes be found right outside the door.   ;)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/RichardS/40386ef8-1401-4961-90a7-863f85428837_zps47dd3c3d.jpg)



Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Douglas on October 27, 2014, 04:19:35 PM
...but dinner can sometimes be found right outside the door.   ;)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/RichardS/40386ef8-1401-4961-90a7-863f85428837_zps47dd3c3d.jpg)





Oh yeah, here too.







(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/tortoise/NYC_Hotdog_cart.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tortoise/media/NYC_Hotdog_cart.jpg.html)




 ;) ;D
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue ~from a SW forum in 2006~interesting read about ballistics
Post by: Richard S on October 27, 2014, 04:45:42 PM
Touché.   ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue~interesting read about ballistics ALSO: Greg Ellifaz data
Post by: JoshA on November 01, 2014, 11:32:00 PM
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Good read that seemingly somewhat contradicts the morgue data; however makes good points as to the effectiveness of the big 3 handgun cartridges.

I think when blended with the morgue data it makes for a well rounded view IMO.

One thing he says may give insight as to why the 9mm has so many hits per shooting. May be the key to balancing the two articles. I like the Elisa's data. Seems accurate.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue~interesting read about ballistics ALSO: Greg Ellifaz data
Post by: ddc on November 03, 2014, 11:53:21 PM
Going back to the extra mag issue: I think having a backup mag if the first is flakey is as important as it is to have the extra rounds.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue~interesting read about ballistics ALSO: Greg Ellifaz data
Post by: JoshA on November 04, 2014, 12:07:39 AM
Good point. That's something I really didn't consider.

I am a well driller and I will never forget one time I drilled this attorney that strangely resembled Abraham Lincoln due to the mustache-less beard look. Well anyway it didn't make hardly any water so he proceeded to pull what I recall a .25 or .32 beretta or the like from his pocket and attempted to shoot it into the well. Click, click and some fumbling with it etc. Well he never did get it to fire a round.

I doubt he was very serious about personal defense, but he would have likely been able to drop the mag and get to work had he a spare mag on his person. Maybe his ammo was as out of date as his beard, but that pistol was more of a detriment than a benefit IMO.

Don't worry if you wear that beard style by the way, it came back in style, but a defensive pistol going click is never in vogue. I like the second mag concept for this reason too. Thanks.
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue~interesting read about ballistics ALSO: Greg Ellifaz data
Post by: sslater on November 26, 2014, 10:19:28 PM
It took me a couple of weeks to plow thru that Tales From The Morgue article, then someone threw in the Greg Ellifaz article.  Whew!  The reason I stuck with it is I did a lot of digging on internal ballistics about ten years ago.  Why? Because I had gotten sick of all the misinformation being written by the familiar-name gun writers and published in the popular gun magazines of the day.  As a mechanical engineer with a pretty strong background in the sciences, terms like "hydrostatic shock", "hydrodynamic shock", "energy dump in the target" just didn't ring true. 

To keep a very long search short, the real story has been available in the literature since the mid-'90s:
1.) I found a number of articles by Dr. Martin Fackler, a retired U.S. Army Medical Corps Colonel.  He was a battlefield trauma surgeon and head of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory at the Letterman Army Medical Center.  It wasn't hard to find a good many articles authored by Dr. Fackler.  He debunked a lot of the popular writings on handguns inflicting hydraulic shock, and "energy dump".  Dr. Fackler eventually realized he needed the expertise of a physicist.
2.) Enter Duncan MacPherson and his seminal work, "Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma".  When I found the reference to this paper, it was out of print, and all of the copies distributed to the local universities had magically "disappeared".  After a couple of years of searching, a librarian I happened to know found a copy at a community college in Iowa.  It was worth the effort.  Amazon lists a Kindle version for about $40, and the real book in (second printing - 2005) hardcover (used) for $200!  I think the first edition was printed before 1995 by The International Wound Ballistics Association.

Bottom line:  The Morgue guys got it pretty much right with the exception of "energy dump" (saying it is best for a bullet to stay in the subject and expend all its energy inside; a bullet that goes thru and exits wastes wounding potential.)  MacPherson explains that what you really want is a bullet that goes all the way thru AND leaves a REAL BIG hole.
As for the hydro(whatever) shock - Fackler, MacPherson and the Morgue guys were in agreement that rifle velocities are needed for that phenomenon to occur.  Even 2,000 ft/sec velocity is on the low side, and there are only a few handguns that will do it.  Like the FN Five SeveN which that Major used in the Fort Hood shootings several years ago...
 
Title: Re: Tales From The Morgue~interesting read about ballistics ALSO: Greg Ellifaz data
Post by: JoshA on November 26, 2014, 11:04:51 PM
Thanks for sharing your info Sslater.

It's always helpful when very experience folks agree AND you can NOT follow it to $$$