The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh Range Reports => Topic started by: Kayaker on January 31, 2010, 09:51:49 PM
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So I received my new Special Forces R9 a couple of weeks ago and finally found time to get to the range. Beautiful looking little black gun. Before heading out, I took it apart and lubed it(oil). Thanks to the info I found here, disassembly and reassembly was not very challenging and I could do it without any pliers or jigs.
I did my homework on this forum and after failing to find suitable ammo at my local gun shops, I searched around on the web and ended up buying 500 Rds of 124 grain Hydrashocks and some WWB. No plans on messing about with something unproven or that might work in only some R9's My thought about buying so much ammo at once was: 1. Good price , 2. I wouldn't feel happy carrying without 200 rds of my carry ammo through the gun.
I got to the range and put 2 magazines of WWB though the gun. No problem. A little snappy and a second shot takes longer to get off than when I am shooting my HK P7M9, but really quite manageable for the planned application. For the third magazine full , Hydrashock. First round FTF. Cleared that round. Tried again, FTF. Cleared that round(set both aside), tried again, FTF. Repeated that entire sequence with the other mag and the same exact thing happened. Then I thought that putting some more WWB through might "loosen things up" One more mag WWB, no problem. Fourth magfull, FTF but it looked like the round would feed if I pushed on the slide a little and it did. Part way through that mag, FTE! Cleared it and shot the rest of that mag no problem. Next mag, FTF on the first round, had to be cleared. Another FTE in that mag! By then I decided to stop being frustrated and put that gun away and spent the rest of the time with my P7 and Seecamp .32.
After the first FTF, I made sure that the magazine was well seated at each exchange. I shot all the suspect rounds through my P7 ( which will eat anything, but I only feed it good stuff). The Hydrashocks measure to be between 27.96 and 28.06 mm with a mean of 28.01mm. The FTE's were not due to fatigue because clearing all those FTF's took time and I shot my P7 in between mags of the R9.
I understand the Rohrbaugh povides excellent customer service, but this experience so far has been quite disappointing. It just seems to me that at this price point quality assurance should be tighter. I understand that a gun with these close tolerances can be challenging.
If anyone has any suggestions before I send this gun back for servicing, I would appreciate them. Please do not suggest that I try different ammo as I have no other use for the Hydrashock. They are not my preferred carry ammo in my HK.
I do suspect that Rohrbaugh will make this right, but I also think everyone should know that all is not rosy with these little guns out of the box. I never had a gun that was this bad out of the box, though my purchases have been skewed to guns with reported reliability out of the box ( Ruger Mk II, Secamp .32(two), Beretta 92, HK P7M8, Colt Kodiak).
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I know you are disappointed, but everything will likely be figured out.
Since you said do not recommend other ammo, I will suggest selling your Hydrashok. I am sure others will chime in as well with other recommendations.
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Kayaker. Sorry you are having problems with your new Special Forces R9. I can't recommend anything other than what you're doing. I'm sure Rohrbaugh will fix anything that is wrong.
Wishing you the best, for sure.
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I don't want to come across as unsympathetic, but it seems you bought the ammo strictly on price; knowing that it's not the recommended ammo. Furthermore, from what I read, Hydrashocks are not even your ammo of choice in your other weapon platform.
That said, as I posted earlier today, people have been quite successful with: Gold Dot, HST, Silvertip, and Hornady TAP.
Try buying two boxes of these, see if they cycle and THEN go buy a huge batch to get your 200 rounds in - that would seem to be a better approach in my opinion.
Also, after 50 rounds or so, the gun may be getting dry and need some lubrication.
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Since your first two mags functioned well it is possible that you have some metal filings that have stuck someplace like the firing pin recess and is causing your failures. In addition to what Bytor said, disassemble it, blow it out with compressed air, clean and relube it. If you do this and go with the short list of recommended ammo it may work itself out.
I can feel your pain.
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I guess I didn't think about it, but FTF could be Failure To Feed or Failure to Fire. I meant failure to feed. No failure to fires.
Though price was a consideration when buying ammo, not a big one. When searching this forum using"Hydrashock", I found that most people thought they worked reliably. It seems to me that for this gun reliability trumps ballistics. Whatever the ballistics of a bullet coming from this gun trumps the ballistics of the silvertip coming out of my Seecamp .32, which is my personal competitor with my R9 ( e.g. pocket or really discreet carry)
I certainly agree with Bytor, that the Hydrashock is not a preferred cartridge for a 9 mm pistol that will eat anything. There are cartridges with both better ballistics and expansion.
I don't think that the problem was my gun being dry or dirty as I started having problems on the third mag, including FTF with the WWB. Note that FTF occurred even on the first round of the mag, when I was manually racking the slide.
Maybe we should have a survey of everyones most reliable ammo for the R9 and then score the brands(and bullet weights). Seems like the answer will be Gold Dots. What is second, third and fourth? This would be useful info to have in times of limited availability.
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Certainly, I'd be highly disappointed too; please understand that. These are expensive guns and for them not to work out of the box is going to deflate you a bit - understandably!!!!
However, I've had good luck with Gold Dot, TAP, and HST. Never shot Silvertip.
Since you have a Seecamp, you're probably aware of being slightly picky. Try those 4 I mentioned and I bet you'll have a winner. Don't give up yet.
I hadn't even thought about metal shavings; that's possible too. Give her a good scrub and try that other ammo.
BTW...if you find my take-down tool...give it back. :)
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Yes, the failure to feeds happened with both mags.
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So I've just cleaned and lubed my R9 and experimented a bit. A few brass shavings were present on the frame rail and the nice black finish in those areas looked a bit gouged. I lubed everything on the wet side and then played with the hydrashocks without firing. They would feed fine just manually racking the slide, which they didn't do after the first dozen rounds of WWB.
Looks like the pup will get another chance at the range before going back to Deer Park. I am still a bit uncomfortable with the thought that if my gun is a bit dry (carry alot, shoot little remember), I am toting a single shot. Range time will tell.
Thanks for the suggestions!!
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Kayaker. Since your first two mag functioned OK, did you let the R9 cool down before shooting the 3rd mag? You should let it cool down between each mag, as the tolerances are so tight.
You may have already tried this. Just a thought.
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I didn't consciously let it cool down, but I was shooting fairly slowly, most of the time alternating one mag each shooting my HK and R9. I also spent a fair amount of time clearing FTF's. I also spent time examining rounds that didn't feed and on the first FTF had to get a refresher in clearing the gun as I don't think I have had a failure to feed in over 10 years.
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Try doing it consciously. The first two mags you fired, worked like they supposed to; did you alternate shooting the HK between the 1st and 2nd mags of the R9? Sounds like you did. Just checking; and if you did, just give it a little more time. Couldn't hurt.
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Yes, the failure to feeds happened with both mags.
From another post: I guess I didn't think about it, but FTF could be Failure To Feed or Failure to Fire. I meant failure to feed. No failure to fires.
I've shot a couple of boxes of Fed HS 147 grain with no difficulty in my relatively new R9.
That being so, let me make an odd suggestion:
When I bought my first really small automatic (a Beretta Tomcat) a couple of years ago, I experienced all sorts of Failures to Feed. They stopped cold when I began to use an UpLula universal magazine loader instead of hand loading the magazines. I'm not sure what's going on, but I intend to keep doing it. (Perhaps the UpLula ensures a more uniform stack or more even spring pressure. Or maybe rounds are scratched and damaged more -- at least by me -- when hand loaded.)
I've subsequently used the UpLula for every R9 load. I've shot WWB, Fed HS, Fiocchi, Blazer Brass, and (most recently) Gold Dots -- all without FTFs.
I also have a Seecamp 32. (The UpLula "just" fits the short mags.) Also, no FTFs, even with less-than-highly-recommended ammo.
Ron
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That sounds like an excellent suggestion that eliminates another variable. It certainly takes the strain out of high capacity mag loading, also.
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Ron. That definitely puts a new twist, so to speak, on the feeding problem. Interesting to see if it would help the R9.
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Ron. That definitely puts a new twist, so to speak, on the feeding problem. Interesting to see if it would help the R9.
I hope I haven't misunderstood you.
I've loaded perhaps 120 rounds with the UpLula for my R9s. I intend to keep using it, because I think it does help the R9. Although, ther folks' mileage may vary. At the very least, the gadget is lots easier on the fingers ... and possibly the cartridges.
I originally bought it to load Browning HP mags and hesitantly gave it a try for the Beretta 32 (the UpLula is designed for 9 mm and 45 ACP). I was surprised that it worked well on Beretta mags and astonished that I could use it to load Seecamp mags (which become tough to load after four rounds, and super tough after five).
Ron
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Ron. I should have been more specific. Interesting to see if it helps Kayakers' Special Forces. I've been calling his, the R9.
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I'm shocked an UpLula would work on an R9 mag, and a Seecamp...WOW....I may just have to cough up some dough and get one of those things.
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If I had an Uplula, I would try it out of curiosity, but I am a low tech kind of guy. I just want to push cartridges into the magazine, put the magazine in the gun and have it go bang many times. I imagine if I shot more than a couple of hundred rounds in one session this would be more attractive. I really don't need another item in my range bag, plus there really is something wrong if the magazines need to be loaded this precisely.
This really does look like a nice gizmo for a high volume shooter though.
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Kayaker. That's a good goal for the Special Forces to go bang. That is what it is supposed to do, so I'm wishing you the best, again, and hope the problem gets worked out.
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Kayaker,
+1 (and +2, +3, +4.....) on the Uplula. I have developed an arthritic thumb and really suffer the next day if I load too many mags without some sort of assist device. The Uplula is far superior to any other loader I've tried, and fits almost all center fire magazines. I never leave home without it in my range bag.
Regarding FTFeed, I think the R9, like most little guns, is sensitive to effective cartridge length. So it's important to get those shells tucked all the way back in the magazine. The Uplula helps to eliminate one more variable.
The advice on cleaning / lubing after 50 rounds is important. I haven't looked at the newest version of the Rohrbaugh manual, but the manufacturer used to recommend clean / lube in the 50 to 80 round count range.
I have experienced jamming problems due to brass or copper shavings that I traced to the gilding metal on the cheap practice ammo. The premium stuff has much thicker jacket metal and doesn't seem to cause any problems.
Finally, the scarring you're seeing is "normal" for the R9. It eventually stabilizes. My R9s has almost 2,000 rounds thru it, and actually looks better now than it did at 300 rounds. Compared to my aluminum frame Sig P239 at 3,500 rounds, the R9s looks like a worn-out piece of junk, but it works fine. 100% reliable. So I tell the retired mechanical engineer in me to shut up and shoot the darn thing! That little R9 is my constant companion. 8)
Steve
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Kayaker,
+1 (and +2, +3, +4.....) on the Uplula.
The Uplula is far superior to any other loader I've tried, and fits almost all center fire magazines. I never leave home without it in my range bag.
Regarding FTFeed, I think the R9, like most little guns, is sensitive to effective cartridge length. So it's important to get those shells tucked all the way back in the magazine. The Uplula helps to eliminate one more variable.
Steve
As it happens ... Midway just announced a sale on the UpLula. Here's the link:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=952670
Ron
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Ron. Thanks for the link. This item looks like it really does the job; also has a five star rating out of 122 reviews. Ordering one, thanks!
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Even though I had a Lula for ARs I also ordered this one; makes good sense.
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Sure does. They say, shipping today! Should have it by the Georgia trip next week.
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Thanks everybody for the advice. I spoke with Maria and she recommended I try a new recoil spring( eventhough this is a "new" gun R36XX), so I ordered a few and if they come before the end of this weekend I will post a followup soon. If not I'll have to wait a few weeks.
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A new recoil spring for a new gun. Now that's one I would not have thought of. Hope that does it.
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Sure does. They say, shipping today! Should have it by the Georgia trip next week.
Maglula arrived today! Fast shipping, indeed.
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Kjtrains,
It looks like the Maglula hijacked this thread a little bit.
But you're gonna love that Maglula. After you use a few times, you will wonder how the heck you ever got along without it - and why did you wait so long to buy one! :D
I can picture that SHAMWOW pitchman selling those things on TV....
Back to Kayaker's original issue: I hope the new recoil spring does the job. All I can say from my own experience is that the Second Generation recoil spring and latest magazine springs made my early-production R9s 100% reliable. (Springs + following the 50-80 round maximum between cleaning / lube.)
Steve
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Steve. You're right! The Maglula works, and great!
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More precisely, the UpLULA; mine hasn't arrived yet.
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The tempermental nature of this "Safe Queen" and its short life spring caused me to go with the Kahr P380. After about 400 rounds, I can honestly say, it was the best move I ever did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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More precisely, the UpLULA; mine hasn't arrived yet.
Even more precisely, the packaging has it labeled the Maglula
UpLULU. :) ;)
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Some one must on the line must have had a sense of humor and an ex named Lulu. A friend of mine bought a new Pontiac Bonneville and the chrome letters across the trunk said, "Pootiac." He kept and cherished the car.
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I had wondered where that name came from! ;D ;D
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A friend of mine bought a new Pontiac Bonneville and the chrome letters across the trunk said, "Pootiac." He kept and cherished the car.
Your friend, definitely, had a unique car.
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The tempermental nature of this "Safe Queen" and its short life spring caused me to go with the Kahr P380. After about 400 rounds, I can honestly say, it was the best move I ever did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rob. To each his own. We can't all like the same things and that's good. Glad you are happy with the Kahr.
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So second day at the range with the Special Forces R9. Maria had recommended th t I replace the recoil spring even though my gun was reported to have had only 5 rounds fired through it when I purchased it. The replacement spring was indeed 3/8" longer than the existing spring and it also felt slightly stiffer, but otherwise apparently identical.
The first mag of Hydrashocks, no problem. The second mag of Hydroshocks, failure to feed with the first round after manually racking the slide. Couldn't get this first round to feed even with different Hydroshock cartridges. Same problem using the other magazine. THen shot one mag of WWB fine. Shot one mag with first round WWB, rest of mag Hydrashocks no problem.
So now I have fired only 3 mags and things start getting uglier. I continued with my combo of first round WWB, rest of mag Hshocks. I would get about 3 failure to feeds per mag, though these could all be remedied by pushing on the slide. I shot about 5 mags like this with FTF's at random times, sometimes the WWB and sometimes the Hshocks. On the next mag, last round I had a FTE and called it quits as I fugrued I was over 50 rounds.
I allowed the gun to cool between mags, started with a well oiled and clean gun, shot with two hands with solid grip( no limp wristing). Sounds to me like I still have a problem gun. I'll have to see what Maria recommends next.
To my eye, it looks as if the first round is lined up properly towards the ramp, but when I release the slide the round ends up moving parallel to the barrel and jamming below the ramp rather than moving up the ramp. Magazine spring problem?
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Kayaker. I would only be guessing. Could be the mag spring. You're right in calling Maria for the next step. Sorry you are having all these problems.
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After talking to MAria for a couple of minutes, she took my number and said that one of the guys would call me back. In a few minutes, I got a call back from Karl R who talked to me afor a few minutes and then suggested that I return the gun for him to inspect.
He also confirmed that most R9's have a particular appetite. His likes 115 gr SIlvertips. A well known gun writer( whose name I missed) says that his prefers 147 gr bullets. But then again, you guys knwo this alrady.
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I agree with the Silvertips, for sure! Yes!
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After talking to MAria for a couple of minutes, she took my number and said that one of the guys would call me back. In a few minutes, I got a call back from Karl R who talked to me afor a few minutes and then suggested that I return the gun for him to inspect.
He also confirmed that most R9's have a particular appetite. His likes 115 gr SIlvertips. A well known gun writer( whose name I missed) says that his prefers 147 gr bullets. But then again, you guys knwo this alrady.
Kayaker. What's the status of your Special Forces R9? Just curious.
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Kayaker. I guess you got your Special Forces R9 problem resolved. Still curious. I thought I would ask again as I saw you were signed in at the time.
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I too would like to know how things turned out!!
My guess would be OAL of the Hydros..
BTW,I love my Lula loaders,I have a couple different ones!!
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For some reason he will not answer. :(
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If Kayaker bought the R9 used, he may not have the warranty for it.
After reading all the posts, I still think it may be ammunition related.
I think I remember Karl stating that his preferred ammunition was 115gr. Gold Dots, not Silvertips.
At any rate, both above work in my R9.
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I just wish Kayaker would give us an update. Would like to know.
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Unfortunately the smaller the shooting platform the more sensitive it is to variations in ammunition. I've not read the instruction manual on this little pistol, but you might want to start out using standard (non +P) velocity round nose (I think WWB is a flat point bullet) and see how things function.
If that makes your weapon function with fewer FTF's, then I'd say that the solution to your problem would involve finding a duty ammo that very closely mirrors standard velocity round nose ammo. While it is listed as +P Corbon makes a very decent ammo (PowRBall) that functions almost as reliably as Round Nose standard velocity. It's not cheap, but then how much are you worth?
Hope everything works out.
Me? I carry a Walther PPK charged with Buffalo Bore 90 Grain JHP's. Not all that far back from your weapon and it definitely is not all that ammo sensitive.
Good luck
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Well, SARGE, welcome to the Forum.
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Welcome to the forum SARGE7402. No +P ammo in the Rohrbaugh guns.
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Thanks for the welcome. I've been looking for a small full time weapon (double action only with restrike capability) in a caliber larger than 380. Unfortuantely carrying it off duty, I've got to be able to reliably hit a mansized target out to 25 yards. I've owned several keltecs and a couple of walthers. The Pocket Nine I had I foolishly let my son have. Changes the subject every time I bring it up.
This little fella looks like it might just be the ticket. But I'm worried that extensive use and it may not hold up. The KelTec P3AT's are like that. Shoot one course of fire each year and carry it the rest of the time
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SARGE. The R9 was made to carry a lot and shoot little. It's a defensive weapon. There are some reports of 5000 rds being fired and the little wonder keeps on working.
I believe that fits into the catagory of extensive use. I really think you would like one.
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SARGE7402,
Welcome to the forum..
I believe if you give the pup a chance,feed it the food it likes,treat it right,it will take care of you!!
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Sarge - a welcome from me as well.
Brenden stated it quite simply.
Reinz
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SARGE, welcome to the forum, OAL is the key in ammo used. Tom
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SARGE, welcome to the forum, OAL is the key in ammo used. Tom
That's especially true when ejecting live ammo!
Those long noses won't come out the ejection port.
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I had the exact same problem (failure to feed) when I first took my NIB r9 stealth to the range. I was mortified I had spent that much money on a carry gun that was so undependable.
When I asked here on the forum for advice it was spot on.
Believe it or not it's over heating.
I bet the first two mags are perfect then the last of the fifty rounds are like pulling teeth, no?
Here's how to check:
from a cold gun, load and fire two mags then sit it off to the side and start a timer for fifteen minuets.
(take something else to the range to shoot while your waiting)
let it cool, repeat.
I bet you'll have no problems.
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Some good advice! :)
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Sarge,
A welcome from me as well.
John
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SARGE. Come on back. Been awhile since July 14, 2010. You're welcome anytime.
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My new R9(s) have about a 15% FTFeed. Cleaned oiled, graphite, cooled down.
Disheartening to say the least.
Federal, WW, Rem
What Gold Dot grain size seems to work best?
The discussion on this thread has been great
Gives me hope
First time poster
CC
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Hmmm, 15% FTFeed from a cool pistol.
My problem was FTFeed only after the third magazine bang bang bang with no cooling period. Once I let it cool for fifteen minutes between every two magazines it's flawless each and every time 100%.
I carry 115grn Hornady FTX Critical Defense but have tested it with 115grn Gold Dot HP and 115grn Win Silvertip HP.
I shoot a mag or two of a mix of all of the above and WWB all 115grn and have yet to experience a problem since I followed the advice here on the forum about letting it cool fully between magazine changes. (my theory on CCW grain is highest muzzel velocity I can get unless it's a 45ACP then it's a 230grn JHP)
My feeling is I'm never going to reload this in a fight so as long as I can get two mags worth of rounds off without a hitch at the range I'm good for what the weapon was intended.
If you are using quality ammo and it jams at all on the first two mags at the range I would think it's a mechanical problem not heat dissapation.
I know how frustrating it is to spend that much money for a pistol and not have it function flawlessly as my first trip to the range with my R9 Stealth was a nightmare. Stick with it, try and work the problem change one variable at a time keep written records, read the forum and contact the manufacturer. My R9 goes almost everywhere I go now and I trust it with my life.
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Don't use Remington; but you didn't say which Remington you tried to fire at the range.
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CC, welcome to the Forum. You'll find lots of good advice and civil discourse here!
First, is your R9s brand new or new-to-you? The reason I ask is the early R9 guns needed a recoil spring and magazine spring change before they ran reliably. (Second gen recoil spring has a closed coil at both ends. The first springs had one closed and one open end.) The current magazine springs are much longer - and stronger - than the original springs.
Little guns shooting high pressure cartridges have a lot of things going on in a small distance, so timing is really critical.
Next, there's the old song about technique. The R9 requires a strong hand, and it still wants to move around. You really have to dominate this gun.
Third, I've had good success with WWB for practice but recently read in American Rifleman magazine that Winchester is moving its center-fire ammo operation from IL to the South. Union problems. So, I'm staying away from Winchester ammo until they get their operation moved. I don't want to accuse the about-to-be-unemployed workers of sabotage, but people losing their jobs aren't going to be as careful...
For carry I've settled on Speer Gold Dot 115 and 124 grain. Mostly 115 grain due to availability. Some Forum members like 147 grain, and I've used it successfully, but feel that's a very heavy bullet for the short R9 barrel.
Finally, if all else fails, your pup will have to go back to Rohrbaugh for some TLC. I understand Karl Rohrbaugh still personally works on all repairs. You will be made whole, it's just the inconvenience factor.
Hope this helps,
Steve
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Thank you to all for the suggestions. I'll keep at it.
I bought the two R9s new. My doctor who is also a LEO, and on the SWAT Team here suggested the weapon. He wears his under his scrubs with no printing.
IMO it is the only small frame 9MM that feels like a real pistol.
Again, thanks for the help.
CC
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cc. Welcome to the Forum. You'll certainly get all kinds of advice here, all mostly good. I use Winchester 115 gr. Silvertips and have not had a problem. Wishing you the best in getting your problem solved.
As slater states the TLC Rohrbaugh gives, if it comes to that, will definitely cure whatever is wrong.
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The R9 requires a strong hand, and it still wants to move around. You really have to dominate this gun.
A nice way of putting it Steve but very true; I've never had a problem with my R9 but I have seen others shoot my pistol and have problems. Because of its small size and light weight, your grip and wrist are more a part of the "system" than with other larger and heavier firearms. A firm wrist and good grip give it something to work against.
It doesn't require Cesar Millan's skills but you probably do want to be the pack leader when you fire it. ;D
And CC - if there IS a problem with your R9 the factory will definitely make it right.
JR
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crazychicken, Welcome from me as well.
I believe most use the 115gr GDs, I shoot the 147gr GDs and like them. I was blessed with one of the pups that will eat anything and ask for more.
Keep us posted on the progress.
John
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Ceasar millan... jajaja funny i dont think many got it lol
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I think any you who's a dog person or has seen his show did. ;D
John