The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Skyhook on October 27, 2005, 06:32:41 PM
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Serious failure occurred :o and details will follow once Deer Park reports back.
I am so disappointed I could------------------
(I'll be in my study and not to be disturbed.)
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Well, OK, but what KIND of failure?
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I'm sorry to hear about the disappointing failure, Skyhook.
I am confident they will resolve the problem quickly and to your satisfaction.
Please keep us posted with the latest news.
Bill
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You have my sympathies, Skyhook.
I know it's a hassle to have to send a gun back, but I'm confident that our friends at Rohrbaugh will do what it takes to make it right. :) Hang in there, and try look at this as an opportunity to get reacquainted with guns that you may have abandoned when you moved to the R9s! I'll have a good thought for you that it's resolved quickly.
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No one was hurt, no property was destroyed, but as a NRA certified pistol instructor of thirty years, I have never owned or operated a firearm that did what this one did.
I will wait for Rohrbaugh's evaluation before I say more.
This will take some time.
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...don a tutu, pirouette, and then drink all your bourbon??? (Just thinking of something no gun has ever done to me...)
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Don't you mean drink the bourbon, put on a tutu and THEN see if you can pirouette?
Eric
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...while juggling two dwarves and singing the national anthem?
Eric
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Skyhook:
Why all the mystery? We're supposed to be friends sitting around a campfire here. What in Hades happened?
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Yeah, Skyhook, now some of us are getting nervous and worried.
Could you let out the secret?
We are just one big happy family.
Bill
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Skyhook, your own words for self comfort: "these things happen.. what's important is how they are handled" - But what the heck happen?
Cheers!
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Skyhook,
You sure have my undivided attention.
Should I put my pup in his crate until you can tell us "The Rest of the Story"?
My Michigan CPL covers handguns but not hand grenades!! ???
Seriously, I hope you weren't injured when TSHTF.
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I sure hope there was no injury, too.
I'm thinking about giving my R9S a rest, until we know more.
Skyhook sure has my undivided attention, just like friend Steve.
Bill
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I'm an old counter-intelligence type. I'll wait for the specifics. In the meantime, my early-isssue R9 was flawless last week.
What happened, Skyhook?
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why even post 1/2 of a story? Just gets people aggravated!
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ok here is my cc # 333765339299 exp 3/08 I will pay anything to know more
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One thing we do know is something occured that really shook Skyhook up. He was having constant problems with the first round jamming into the feed ramp when trying to chamber it by hand. Hopefully this didn't cause a round to fire before it was chambered - saw that happen to a colt once. Then of course we can guess all we want, but until Skyhook lets us know there is nothing we can do but picture all kind of possibities in our minds - as I just have done.
Maybe it would have been best not to have know about it until an answer can be given from the factory. Now the cats out and of course some will worry about their own piece until details are given.
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I hope someone will step forward and put the troops at ease.
It had to be pretty big and important for Skyhook to mention it.
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>>Generally speaking I am one to look at things and make up my own mind about them but it is hard not to give attentions to Skyhook given his announcement/pronouncement. I too wish he would say what is on his mind...or rather that he might have held his tongue until he was ready to say something. **sigh**
Of course I am now curious as to what Karl will have to say about this issue ...whatever that issue might be.
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Can't wait to hear this one...
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Sorry all, I was not trying to irritate anyone, I just thought I'd not say much until the factory guys got a good look.
Remember my problem with the feeding in the past? Well, after six rnds of GD 124, the gun jammed (FTF) a few times showing a definite hard bumping of the rim of the case around the seated bullet. On fired cases, there were some indentations about 1/2 way down the length of the cases.. then upon ejection of maybe the tenth round, the gun locked up solidly about 1/4th the way back. This lock-up had to happen as the gun tried to go into battery for the breech is empty.
I have no idea what happened.. none. The gun was clean and lubricated according to specs, etc. Those GDs were standard velocity rnds. ???
Now I have a different problem-- my old friend & dealer who facilitated the receiving of the gun has retired from business for health reasons and I am having to contact a post office which will handle the item. Two neighboring post masters have told me they don't 'do' guns. ::)
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Skyhook:
Thanks for the explanation. I feared that you might have expierienced some catastrophic failure causing personal injury.
As I recall the USPS regulations, only a licen sed dealer (FFL) can ship a pistol through the mail. The rest of us have to use a contract carrier such as FedEx or UPS.
Good luck. I'm confident that the factory will take care of the problem. Please keep us informed.
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Skyhook, thanks for sharing the story. I know you are upset, but as you and all of us here have stated, no one got hurt.
Just to clarify though, does this situation leave the firearm in a somewhat loaded condition?
Is that what you are saying? The slide is locked up, yet the breech is empty, but were you able to pull the magazine out, and unload the firearm?
You can leaglly ship you firearm to and from the factory through either FED-Ex, or UPS.
It must be shipped next day.
I always write on a seperate piece of paper that a gun is in the box if the counter person asks.
Normally, I don't write in on the packing slip, and neither do they, but insure that it is adult signature required.
Usually if any one notices the address the package is going to they realize a gun is in there, or at least question it.
The reason I write it down on a piece of paper is not to offend any non gun person in line behind me.
Buy the insurance, and track the package.
They other alternative is to drive yourself to the factory.
You're in the same state.
Good luck with the outcome.
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Skyhook, I'm glad you told the story. Thanks, we needed that.
I would be absolutely disgusted. Congratulations to you for your great restraint. I know you must have said "Dadgumit", carefully avoiding coarse language.
They will correct the problem and you will enjoy a new beginning!
I'm sorry about this bad start.
Bill
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Thanks guys. I used those old lyrics from the old C&W show; "Gloom, despair, agony on me".. to kind of unload an otherwise bad situation and to convey the thought I belong to the "It's Just a Thing" club.
"Things" go Tango Uniform every now and then and there's no use getting all worked up over them.
I know the factory will set it straight once I get it in the mail to them(Monday).
I spent an afternoon with Roy Clark a few years back as both of our airplanes were fogged in in Saratoga, NY-- I think he'd be chiming in with, "Deep, dark despair excessive misery."(Remember?) ;D
Gotta go, Jr. Samples just pulled up in his Ford PU.
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WOE!
If it wer'n't fer bad luck, I'd have no luck at all . . .
WOE!
(Pretty neat about getting to hang with Roy Clark! :) )
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Skyhook
I too want to thank you for sharing - and I also wish to say as bad as it was it wasn't as bad as some of us were thinking. Even the Rolex watch company at times lets a "lemon" slip through. I am sure your lemon will become a sweet peach. Keep us informed. Thanks again.
Dave
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Speaking of Rolex...I wouldn't encourage any of ya'll to buy one -- I sent my father's back to be serviced, and they informed me that they no longer support that model, and asked which MAJOR modifications I'd like done to have it fixed...I'm pretty sure that most other high-end watch companies continue to support all their models.
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Rolex?
Buddy of mine has a solid gold Rolex President. It never has the right time.
Says he: "It's not important that it have the right time. It's only important to be a Rolex!" My Citizen (a plebian name if there ever was one) Titanium Skyhawk keeps time to the second.
Substitute BMW for Rolex and you get the idea. Good V6 Accord just lacks the propellers! ;D
The R9S, on the other hand, is a functional item.
-- Chuck
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Skyhook, just ship it UPS back to the "factory for repair" next day, insured.
Tom
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I'm back to carrying my R9S because I've had no feeding issues. But I'm anxious to hear the explanation Rohrbaugh gives Skyhook for the lock-up. :P
Skyhook, I may have missed it, but how many rounds total did you have on your R9 when it quit working?
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Total rounds would be fewer than twenty.
The first twelve went off fine, then I could not get the mag to strip off the first rnd from the mag.
This second range experience lasted, I think, about seven rnds and the jam happened as the last rnd was ejected. I can see the take-down link pin- barely- but I am not into doing what someone will have to do to move that slide.
Between the first shooting and the second, I had taken the gun apart, cleaned it, and reassembled it (making sure the 'unfinished' end of the spring went into the little recoil spring retainer). For lube, I used Super Lube applied with a small paint brush as per instructions on this BBS.
I am perplexed.
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Tom,
It's leaving in Monday's mail (USPS). I have a FFL who will take it to the PO and get-R-done.
The nearest UPS facility is about 45 min away on a good day and the personnel there are not friendly when handguns are discussed. You see, about fifteen years back, my 10" bbl Ruger silhouette comp .22 was stolen while in their care and between myself, the NYSP, and the feds, I guess we made quite an impression. ;D
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Less than twenty rounds.....that's definitely what we used to call "infant mortality". Either something wasn't fitted right from the git-go, or more likely a burr or 'dingleberry' has been stood up by functioning under firing pressure.
I'm sure the Rohrbaugh hospital will make it better than new. ;D
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Skyhook,
I remember when Roy Clark had a Mitsubishi twin turbo-prop. I don't know him, of course, but was impressed when reading an article in Flying.
He probably has a jet now.
Do you know if he always had a co-pilot on that twin, or did he go it alone?
Bill
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Bill, this was just before his twin days and he was flying a decked-out Bonanza.
He had played at the Saratoga Performing Arts Center and was looking to heading southwest.
He was/is a really great guy, easy to talk with and funny as anything you can imagine. Quick-witted barely covers it. ;)
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:'( My baby left for Deer Park this morning @ 10 a.m.
Shipping and insurance was near $35.00 USD.
*Everybody, altogether now: "Since my baby left me....."
(Fingers crossed.....)
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How about the Spanish version . . . ?
Desde que conozco . . . :)
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sslater
'dingleberry'.......... Now, that's a word you don't see every day. It may has passed without notice, but for my coarse ''un- PC '' manner. ;)
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How about the Spanish version . . . ?
Desde que conozco . . . :)
There are times I prefer that. ;)
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Skyhook, I hope that pistol gets an extra fast turn around.
You deserve better luck than this.
Bill
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Thanks, Bill, but I do not really know what to expect.
I always give the company the benefit of the doubt and time to make necessary corrections. Having had my own business, I am familiar with both sides.
We'll see.
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Skyhook,
I'm really sorry to hear about you continued Failure to Feed problems. I've had a number of other problems with my pup, but I've never had a failure to feed (knock on my wooden head). As you well know that's usally caused by feed ramp or magazine problems. I know you have checked and polished your feed ramp. The odds of geting two bad magazines are slim, but possible. I hope it's as simple as that. What ever it is I believe the Rohrbaughs will take care of it for you.
EdMan
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Thanks, EdMan, I cannot imagine Rohrbaugh doing anything other than making the little beast right.
I should get a phone call this afternoon or, maybe, tomorrow some time. Good things are worth waiting for, so I'll be as patient as I can be under the circumstances. I think that if the R9s was my only small piece, I'd be more deeply troubled.
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SKYHOOK,
I am happy that the R9 is on its way to the clinic. I am sure that all the problems will be addressed and corrected.
I am sorry that you have to live without the R9 for a while.
Side note, I sent you a PM.
Art
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Skyhook,
I remember when Roy Clark had a Mitsubishi twin turbo-prop.
Would it have been a MU-2, the worlds most unsafe plane?;^)
I hope not...
Jr. Samples
Jess call BR-549
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That BR-549 shickles the tit out of me to this day.
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Yes, I'm pretty sure it was an MU-2. I didn't know about the safety record.
It was pretty impressive to me that an entertainer was flying a high performance twin, and also surviving.
Several people in show business have lost their lives, but Mr. Clark obviously knows what he is doing.
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I would still watch that program today if it was on the air.
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I would still watch that program today if it was on the air.
So would I, Bill, so would I.
Grampa Jones... that's me!
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??? This post is about no word.
I mailed the gun in Monday morning... Maria said they received it Tuesday afternoon....
It's way past shop closing (Fri 6:15pm) and I have heard nada.
Oh, me; oh my, of what shall I make of this??
I got it-- They're busy! 8)
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I forgot to mention I had phoned the company twice today and left messages on their "We're on the other line" line.
Yup, they are busy.
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Hang in there Skyhook.
I called the "R" factory once a while ago to order springs and magazines, and they were closed for inventory.
That's the kind of timing I have.
Never ordered the springs or the Mags after that.
Its going to be a looong weekend for you.
we all know what waiting is like.
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Geez, I dunno--- after seeing numerous "I sent my gun in yeaterday and Mr. R. called me today" kinds of postings here, I'm starting to wonder how come I have heard nothing for a week?
I have made a total of four phone calls to them, placed three messages on their recorded answering device, and have received this many return calls--0-- That's ZERO.
Something is not smelling right.... I am resolved to remain calm and patient for another, say, couple of days.
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Skyhook, 8) patience is a virtue!!! :-*
Tom
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I'm sorry that you didn't get to enjoy the new pistol from the very beginning.
Here's hoping for a fast resolution.
Bill
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My sweet mum taught me about patience, working a lifetime with the many ways weather can do whatever it wishes whenever helped.
It would have been nice of the R Co. to let me know something of what is going on, though.
::)
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When I had to send mine back, it took several days before they called me, after they received it. But Karl did call and I expect he'll call you as well.
I feel your pain though!
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1:48 P.M., Monday...
Still awaiting word one.....
Now I must leave for some pending business appointments and maybe Karl will call whilst I'm scooting down the freeway... ::)
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>>Hi Skyhook...
You probably don't want to hear this, but my suggestion is that Karl may not contact you until he has at least figured out the problem(s) with your gun - unless he specifically promised to call you when he received the gun to assure it did arrive (??).
I say this as I too have several guns out - recently returned to their manufacturers requesting examination and repair, as might be appropriate. And of course I provided my contact points and asked to be called if they had any questions or concerns...but I don't realistically expect to hear from them until the guns are fixed - unless there are questions they may have to help solve the problems.
You probably won't want to hear this either...but I said many months ago and believe it is worth saying again now...
I feel some folks have put Eric & Karl up on an unrealistic pedestal as every R9 holder's best friend...partially through the magic of this forum, but also from the early ease of access Eric allowed himself through e-mail and phones.
For us it was GREAT...! We all know how personable, helpful, and responsive Eric was up until six or eight months ago through these media. Thing is... Eric eventually got overwhelmed and stressed out to the point it was not good for his personal health, or the business..!!
For one thing... All it took was one or two very unreasonable/offensive people to ruin a good thing for all of us, and Eric - because he IS such a genuine person, and folks like that tend to be taken advantage of.
This also leads into a different but related issue...of what happens often times when you are successful at something. Like the R9...!
I doubt Eric would ever have come out and put things this way, in part because he is such the gentileman...and because the easy access direct contact with MOST of us, the end users, was enjoyable for him...to a point.
But eventually with the very quick success of the R9 Eric was more needed at the factory making guns than he was being on the front lines with us, sad (for Eric and us), but true...so I believe. Now Maria is manning the front desk, and Eric and Karl are mostly back scenes working on guns...as things need to be. Occasionally Karl or Eric may come out of the caves to take a special issue question or address a need in fixing a gun (like Skyhook?), when appropriate.
My point in bringing this up today is that I think for one... We need to be careful when encouraging folks here on the forum...especially if they are new to the R9...about how fast and wonderful Rohrbaugh is (mostly true) because they are the R-Bros...etc., etc. Yes - they will take care of us - but lets present things reasonably.
And for two... I beleive those of us WAITING to have our guns or questions addressed by the R-Bros (TW raises his hand here too) need to expect no more from them than we would any other well run and successful (but small) business. They are not magic...just two brothers (and team) running a growing business as best they can. Anything more is gravy.
And thats all I have to say about that. Anyone... Feel free to have at me if you do not agree with what I'v said. Just remember...I too am waiting to have various guns fixed...in a timely way...TW<<
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Eric,
I take to heart what you said to skyhook. However his problem is no simple matter or routine broken gun. Yes success is a two edged sword. But I think that that more is going on. From reading these boards and learning all of the experiences that fellow rohrbaugh owners are complaining about is frankly becoming distressing. It's starting to seem to me that we have gone from "breaking the gun in" learning to hold it" "how to maintain and lube it properly" to what seems to me more of an "Engineering Problem or Production Problem". Frankly I'm concern and have thus cancelled my order on my 2nd Rohrbaugh R9s pistol. Read the post carefully you find them rare that the gun goes 50 rounds plus problem free. Where are the owners with 1500 rounds plus through their guns? The "hey good buddy you know that this thing is only ment to shot a magazine full with out failure " is well ...... Not cutting it!
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Here I sit reading and nodding in agreement.
I have witnessed similar failures before... just not with a $1K gun.
I am doing my best to be upbeat and positive even though the factory has not contacted me (I had to call them to see if they even got the gun) in a week's time. Yup, it was one week ago today I sent it in, guys.
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I think many of us wish there were no problems. We shouldn't even have to be talking about this. $900 - $1000 should get a completely reliable pistol. There should be zero defects, and it should look good, too.
Still, it is guaranteed for life. That says a lot.
I certainly agree with TW. It takes time to do things correctly. I know they will be trying their best to bring this to a happy conclusion.
Skyhook has been a model of restraint, considering that he paid all that money for a pistol which didn't work correctly.
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We have all tried to be positive and protective. We have made a circle around the wagon, so to speak.
That said, I sure would like to see these problems solved and this whole episode brought to a quick end.
Once word gets out, then we may have bigger problems. I felt like we were all sitting at the top of the totum pole as owners of the wonderful new R9S. Now the pole may have bent slightly.
Soon, there will be people snipping at our heels.
I want the value of my pistol to increase with time.
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OK, I see and have read about the problems. We have to remember that it involves just a few pistols out of a 1000 or so.
None of my customers have had a problem!!
A new customer picked up his gun on Saturday and shot 70 rounds thru it with out a problem!!!
Tom
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Tom,
You have given us the answer; you have all the trouble-
free guns sent to you.
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tracker, I am sure happy you and other customers of mine have trouble free pups.
I still think only a small % of the guns made are having problems. Also I think the R bros will take care of things.
Tom
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I would be 'ok' if a company owner did not call me regarding warrenty service of my pistol. However I would be in contact with the company making sure they received it and the status of repairs.
Remember a lifetime warranty is only valid for your lifetime “or the Rohrbaugh company’s lifetime”.
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The Forum is looking bad right now ...
It looks all doom and gloom. I think these problem posts should stop.
Get on the telephone, and work this out in private..
Fire away,.......
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>>Skyhook...
I did not mention before but will now... Two of the three guns I recently shipped back to their respective factories were my R9s...!!
I don't want to go into a whole lot of detail now, but I will say the following about the problems with my two R9s...
Both of my guns suddenly started doing the FTF thing, on either the first or third shots (go figure??), and only with the regular diet of Hollow Points (.115g GDHP)...round ball ammo still fed fine...! I have cleaned and lubed the guns religiously, as per instructions. I have and have used seven different magazines. Then strangely...after sitting in my safe for almost four months un touched - I tried GDHP in both guns one more time before shipping...and now they seem to cycle better, although not perfectly = not enough confidence that I would carry them to save my life.
One of my guns was a very early version purchased used now having about 500 rounds through it. The other is a new gun built this past Spring and has less than 100 rounds through it.
I don't know if the FTF problem is related or not but my older gun has developed a gouge in the frame (where the back of barrel hits during cycle?) and some wear on the rails. The newer gun has just the beginnings of such wear.
I spoke to Karl about this many weeks ago and he seemed to think the frames needed some modification (going from memory) and would be fine (no more FTF). Quite frankly, although I was glad to hear that Karl thought he could fix the guns, I was quite depressed to hear this news (guns broke/need fixing), which is why I haven't dealt with them until just recently. And being depressed about my R9s is one reason why I haven't been so active on this forum for some months = all my problems, not Rohrbaughs.
So now I too begin waiting, and in time I guess I'll see if the R9 is a gun I will keep for self defense, or not. I hope so, and I have no reason to expect otherwise based on my prior experience with the company. And as someone already pointed out today - $1000 is a lot to spend on a gun, and as a self defense tool you EXPECT it to work just fine.
So you see, Skyhook...it seems I DO have the same/similar issues as you on my two, $1000 guns. I have no idea when I will see or hear from Karl, Eric, or Maria next, but certainly not until Karl gets a chance to look at and work on the two problems I described - FTF and frame wear...and probably not until he has already fixed your gun! I may not hear anything until they are repaired and sent back to me...and I expect nothing more. Granted, if in a month or so I haven't heard anything I will probably give Maria a call...but a week...?? I just don't see that being necessarily a reasonable expectation.
If our R9s were Colts - would you expect to be hearing from the company within a week or seeing it fixed by then? Much less hearing back from the company president? I wouldn't/don't. As much as I too WISH that was how things worked everywhere...I just can't see/expect that from folks - not even the R-Bros...TW<<
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Judging by the way the Rohbaugh Factory works, they're not about to jump to conclusions. Someone said the same thing earlier. Give them some time to disect the gun, and look at the problem.
They're not about to just forget about the gun. It will get repaired, or replaced.
Go with the odds here, not every R9 is broken from the factory.
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The Forum is looking bad right now ...
It looks all doom and gloom. I think these problem posts should stop.
Get on the telephone, and work this out in private..
Fire away,.......
**TW gives RJ a Nose Tweak just on principle because he said to "Fire away" at him**
Good points though, RJ...these or any problems should be worked out one on one via phone rather in mass over the internet...which was one of the points I hoped to get across.
Yeah, this forum has become a valuable tool for identifying and addressing certain problems and issues - as well as all the perks. And in many cases we have been able to help one another through our experiences. But right now the forum sort of reminds me of the news media going after George Bush = trial and conviction through the media, not elected officials...which in our case is allowing/encouraging individuals to address thngs directly with Rorhbaugh...TW<<
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I will have to take issue with stopping the bad news in an
open forum. One of the dictionary's definitions of a forum
is, "a medium of of open discussion or voicing of ideas".
When I took Latin, a "Forum Romanorum" was a public
place for open discussion, not that Nero paid attention to it
but we should today. Some R-9 owners are upset and they
should be able to voice their discontent here in addition
to contacting Rohrbaugh.
Could it be that these problems were not envisioned before
this forum was founded? This could be a great voice for the
customer if we will let it flow.
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Honestly reporting our experiences, good and bad, as is done here, will make Rohrbaugh a better company and help them make better pistols. If this or any other forum becomes a propaganda outlet or a place where the bad news is squelched then people won't trust what information is here and they won't buy pistols based upon what is read.
I would not have spent nearly $1,000 on a pistol without reading lots and lots of honest reviews first.
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+1
I would not have spent nearly $1,000 on a pistol without reading lots and lots of honest reviews first.
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"Lots and lots of honest reviews.."
And where would these have come from? The only place for reviews I trust are from those indiviuals who actually own and use whatever it is I am thinking of buying. That's what this forum allowed and I am grateful.
I really do not put a lot of trust in magazine reviews, for instance.
As for alarming anyone with the truth, ie: teething problems of a new product, no adult should become all that disturbed learning some machine actually had some flaws.
As for the $1K, humph. That's only a figure I used for comparison. I do not fear losing $1000 for that much and more is stolen from each and every one of us each year.
Naw, I just want the factory to work this ything out and I also know that whether or not that happens is totally the responsibility of that company. We're doing the responsible consumer thing, aren't we?
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>>Skyhook...
You make some good points, I just don't like to see the board go into what might look like an unwarranted feeding frenzy. Already there is one guy saying he will not make an R9 purchase based on what he is now reading...which reminds me of the same kind of knee jerk reaction you might see based on newspaper reports now-a-days. However, I agree 100% about getting real facts about the R9 HERE vs. the news rags. I have yet to meet anyone able to get ~ 3" groups with an R9 at 25 yards as claimed early on - LOL.
My other point has to do with allowing Rohrbaugh a reasonable amount of time to look at/work on a gun before an owner should expect return of a gun and/or communications about it - this based on some of the early response some of us had back when Eric would comb this forum daily and respond to everyone's queries personably ASAP. By and large those days are gone, and some of us old timers (of less than a year ago) still promote such activity as if still current.
So... Let's hope our guns receive the treatment they need and deserve in a timely way so we can report back here with confidence what has been going on with them, and relate the continued good service that we rightfully expect - within reason...TW<<
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I think it is urgent that we discuss R9 problems here on the forum. Otherwise, we would think there were no defects. Our main business has been to praise the pistol, but we must also provide critical reviews.
I understand RJ's point. If he ever had a holster fail, he wants the customer to tell him, and he would fix it. He would fix it faster than we could talk about it. It's not worth making a federal case out of nothing.
But now there are reports of steel frames cracking, and pistols that do not function. This is potentially a life or death situation.
If Charles Lindbergh takes us for an airplane ride, and a big crack appears across the wing, and the fuel is not flowing normally, we need to discuss this on the Ryan aircraft forum. I think the reasons are self-evident.
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With all respect, to all, the point has been made, I"M sure.
The problem has been documented by many, I might be leading the group if mine was affected ! But mine is not seeing too much action,
This thread should shown a liile restraint from this point, give the Brothers a little time....
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I have stayed out of this for a while, to let other speak. I feel like I should address a few points.
This forum was founded by me and only me. (I have since had a lot of help from you guys -- no doubt about that -- and all appreciated). I didn't even have an R-9 yet, but I ordered one. I then contacted Eric and told him I would like to start a Rohrbaugh Forum. They thought it was a great idea, but made it clear that it could not (for legal reasons) have any connection to the company. I don't have permission to use their logo, and they have no control over the content. Rohrbaugh has never given me a dime toward this effort for the same reasons. This is an open internet forum -- an unofficial forum -- with no connection to Rohrbaugh Firearms.
There is no mandate on my part to censor "bad" information. Even when there are questionable posts, I tend to close them rather than delete them so there is no cry of censorship. I have deleted a post or maybe two in the history of this forum -- and that had to do with personal attacks rather than R-9 info. I believe that the credibility of this forum requires the open sharing of information.
That being said, I do try to maintain some fairness and objectivity. I won't let people trash Rohrbaugh unfairly -- nor will I let people trash other people unfairly.
I think this forum has done a slight disservice to the R-Brothers by making them seem too accessible and raising expectations too much. Internet forums draw the extremes -- people complaining about a broken gun and people whose socks have been blown off by good service. The two opposing camps are thrown together and the guys on the short end of the stick feel even worse!
If I send a gun to S&W or Glock or Springfield I would expect a 6-8 week turn around time. Sorry -- but it's true. When sending a gun to a small shop you might even expect more. To expect an assessment of a gun in a week or less seems unrealistic to me for any company.
The problems on the 'net are magnified to the nth degree. All Glocks kaboom in .40 cal or have Phase III malfunctions in G19s, all S&W revolvers have inadvertent lock engagements, all Kahrs have magazine catch failures, all Kimbers have MIM parts failures, etc. People don't get on a website to report their gun just fired another 100 trouble free rounds. Most of those people don't even find the forums in the first place.
Face it folks -- we are early adopters. Rohrbaugh may have shipped 1,000 guns. How many Glock 19s have been made, and they still had a frame recall? The most important thing is that the factory is committed to fixing any issues and making them right. I have yet to hear anything otherwise.
I am not censoring anyone, I am just asking everyone to be reasonable and give this a chance to work itself out. Last year people were panicked about a pin failure that ultimatley affected a couple of guns and was fixed. These things happen. It will all work out.
Anyone who reads this forum and decides not to buy an R-9 probably shouldn't buy one. I am not sure that you would buy any pocket gun if you read all the forums.
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To reiterate, the point is made.. Just how many cracked slides are there out there?? I come up with four, do you see more?
I just called to inquire of this problem, it has been identified and corrected. There were a few slides that got out. It seems most have been caught. But I'm sure there may be others, maybe mine. But, the point is, they will be taken care of...
Just calm down, or make a call, it's toll free.... :)
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>>Duane...
Well stated...! Now why couldn't I come out and say things so clearly...?...!
Now you have me concerned about my brand new G-19. What's this about phase III maufunctions...?...lol...TW<<
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Perfectly said, Duane.
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Duane,
I also agree with your 10:16am post. As a retired engine design engineer for one of the Big Three, I can assure everyone that Murphy's Law holds true for anything that has parts. That's EVERYTHING!!
40 years ago in engine production, a failure rate below 3 repairs per 100 per year in service was acceptable. Today, 3 repairs per 1,000 lifetime is more the norm.
Still, there is a statisical failure rate for each part in each assembly in each subsystem that goes into a car. Something like 15,000 parts in a mid-range car. (An engine counts as one part. That engine may have 1,300 parts. And so on.) Even a very good car will have more than 1,000 repairs per 1,000 cars produced over three years in service.) But chances are your individual car will need only a small handful of repairs.
Bottom line: 4 cracked slides out of 1,000 guns in service isn't a surprise.
BTW: I remember reading about Beretta M9's in military service having a rash of crack slides. And some of those puppies flew off backwards into the faces of the shooters. :P
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Daune and RJ, thanks for your coments. Lets all let the dust settle, they will take carer of the problems.
Tom
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It's easy to forget that other handguns have suffered from problems.
My new Beretta 92FS Inox failed to feed constantly during the first shooting. The best it would do was two good ones in a row.
The extractor had a burr which was removed, but I was so disgusted I traded it back to the dealer at a loss, and got a Sig.
I'm glad that Duane stepped in. I'm able to put my concerns aside while problems are worked out.
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Let me add my little bit.
Duane is right on the mark. There is no real problem here. We few owners of the R9 series, of which there are not many more than 1,000 to date, are fortunate. I have owned Rohrbaugh # 132 for more than a year. I've lost track of the rounds fired through it. I rang it out with 57 or so on the first outing. Since then, I have limited my use to maintaining familiarization -- a magazine or two at a time. As Karl Rohrbaugh has advised, this is a weapon designed to be carried a lot and shot a little. The same concept applies to the new Seecamp .380, which also pushes the size-envelope for its caliber.
If I want to run 200 rounds or more through a handgun at a single range session, I will use my customized Colt 1911 .45. [Does anyone here what to see yet another picture of my pride and joy? . . . I didn't think so.]
The only complaint I have with my R9s is that I have not been able to get a set of sterling silver grips for the little masterpiece. In the meantime, it is my "Ace in the Hole."
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The forum has not been a fun place to visit lately. I agree - lets sit back and breath for awhile and let the process work itself out. It took me months to get results for a malfunctioning colt. Yes discuss the good, and concerns, but without the panic. I have always enjoyed coming here because this forum is more than the gun itself.
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I'm one of the members that had a cracked R-9 slide, but I've maintained a positive attitude. Karl R replaced my R-9 slide with a R-9S slide and had it back to me in less than a week. So it was actually a positive experience. For me this was I very good example of a cloud with a silver lining. :)
Ed
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Duane,
You're right about other gun companies taking a lot longer to repair guns than Rohrbaugh. I've had to send my Taurus PT145 back to Taurus 3 times to repair a broken frame. Each time they said they knew what caused it and that it was finally fixed, it wasn't. Also each time it took three weeks or more to gets the gun back. I've sent a couple Kel Tecs back for repair, again about 2 to 6 weeks to get it back.
I do disagree with what you said about Glocks though. You wrote (typed), "All Glocks kaboom in .40 cal or have Phase III malfunctions in G19s." I have had my Glock 19 since 1986 and have thousands of rounds fired through it with no problems or failures of any kind. My Glock 22, 23, and 27 (all .40S&W) have had thousands of factory jacketed rounds fired through them with no kabooms or any other failures. Every confirmed incident of a kaboom, that I've been able to find information on, involved reloads and/or unjacketed lead bullets. Glock strongly recomends against using lead bullets in their barrels.
Thanks again for doing such a great job with this forum. :)
Ed
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Ed,
Of course you are right -- I was exagerating to make the point. If you read Glock Talk at the right times, you would think every .40 Glock was an explosion waiting to happen. That clearly is not the case and it was a few very isolated incidents, some probably related to user error (like improper handloads). I was just drawing the analogy to the slide cracks.
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Duane,
Ok. I understand. I thought it might have been someting like that. I have had such great shooting enjoyment and reliability with all of my Glocks that I felt I had to dedend them. ;)
I've read many posts on GlockTalk, but I've never become a member of that forum as it is not as civilized as your forum here.
Ed
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Still haven't shot the little bear yet. I plan on being intimate with her soon though. I'm thinking 50-60 rounds with a good cleaning afterwards is all I'll need to trust her.
If I have any issues with the little gem, I'm not gonna worry too much.
I've had several quality handguns over the years and each one had some sort of issue I had to work out.(i.e. bad extractor, barrel not perfectly aligned w/ cylinder, tritium sight gone bad) Each time I got it fixed either by the local gunsmith or by sending it back to the manufacturer. I paid between $700-$1000 new for each of them. It's just part of having a gun "come into its own". If you happen to have gotten one(any gun) that requires no further maintenence, consider yourself lucky.
My point is: Break it in and get it tweaked before you make a final judgement on the piece.
Anyway, that's my little opinion.
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Buz, now I wish I were more patient with a new Beretta 92FS Inox (stainless) which came with a burr on the extractor.
It probably would have shot 10,000 rounds between failures, but I traded it in. Too bad. It was a beautiful pistol.
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I've had several quality handguns over the years and each one had some sort of issue I had to work out.(i.e. bad extractor, barrel not perfectly aligned w/ cylinder, tritium sight gone bad) Each time I got it fixed either by the local gunsmith or by sending it back to the manufacturer. I paid between $700-$1000 new for each of them. It's just part of having a gun "come into its own". If you happen to have gotten one(any gun) that requires no further maintenence, consider yourself lucky.
That hasn't been my experience at all. All most all of the pistols I've owned have been utterly reliable from day one.
Glock 17, 19 & 23, HK USP9, USP45 Tactical, HK P7M8, Wilson 1911, Springfield Pro 1911, Liebenberg 1911, Kahr K9, Sig 220.
All of them perfectly flawless in terms of function. If I get a gun that malfunctions consistantly, it's history.
I'm giving the R9 a chance because I realize it's the miniature size that makes it a real challange to get things right. I hope things work out because I really want a 9mm pistol of this size.
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OK, I never had a problem w/ my Glock either. Never really felt safe w/ one in the tube though so I sold it.
Anyhow I agree with you in that I really want a 9mm in this size too, and I'm willing to send it back if need be to get it right.
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Anyhow I agree with you in that I really want a 9mm in this size too, and I'm willing to send it back if need be to get it right.
Welcome to our list, Buz. You can consider it your own as well. We all have ownership of some kind here and we all want the 'pup' to fulfill our dreams. I can't begin to count the number of mechanical items I've purchased over the years that failed me utterly and completely. I'm almost ashamed I was so stupid to believe the hype.
My R9 had some early hiccups, but has been flawless since. I too really really NEED a pocket gun this size, as we all do. So, that's our investment. It gives many psychic and real returns and getting to flawless operation is a frustrating task, sometimes, but a worthy one.
I liken the gun world to my guitar world. We are always looking for that guitar with "something more", that will finally be the perfect (and last) guitar I'll ever need. But perfection, although attainable, is rarely acheived, but is always being sought by guys like us who need to be on the forefront. Or back nine;^)
Hayword N. Edgewise
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Hayward,
I too have a guitar addiction. It's very similar to my handgun addiction. I've tried many, and sold most only to keep a few of my real favorites. I don't like excess ones lying around(guns or guitars)
Thanks for the welcome. Everyone is really friendly here and it's a nice place to "hang out".
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OK Calvin and Buz, what kind of guiters do you guys like?
Tom
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I've been thinking about buying an inexpensive classic guitar.
Does anyone have an idea which is a best economy buy?
It would be just lightly used.
I bought a wonderful book about building your own guitar, but decided it might be beyond my skill level. It is a very interesting subject. The book name is probably:
Classic Guitar Construction
by Irving Sloane
You had to build your own mold to form the sides.
Bill
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On the subject of building something, there is a terrific book which shows you how to make a telescope.
I ground the 8 inch mirror down to the finest abrasive, but have not completed the final polish and submission to a lab for metal plating to make the mirror.
The astonishing thing for the layman is that you can see and remove bumps on the mirror that are about one ten millions of an inch. If you touch it, it raises a bump, so you let is sit for thirty minutes to calm down so you wont be removing the bump from touching.
http://willbell.com/tm/tm3.htm
Bill
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As long as this has veered off topic....
I have a friend who worked at Martin Guitar many years ago. They were allowed to build themselves any Guitar they wanted, on their own time. He was really good at that stuff. I remember he also built himself a harpsichord - a painstakingly long process.
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As long as this has veered off topic....
I have a friend who worked at Martin Guitar many years ago. They were allowed to build themselves any Guitar they wanted, on their own time. He was really good at that stuff. I remember he also built himself a harpsichord - a painstakingly long process.
Ironically, I go to Allentown, PA every Christmas, which isn't too far from the Martin factory, but they are closed for the holidays, so I can never go on their tour.
I am an old rock n' roller from way back ('60s), when I had a small band and did a few performances, including a school talent show, in which all the girls screamed, like we were the Beatles, or something. That was it for me; I needed to be a rock star. Since I'm NOT a rock star, and don't even know anyone who plays one on TV, I assuage my lack of star power with the guitars of the stars. And amps. And I quest for tone. It may be elusive, but I keep looking and hearing. It doesn't hurt that my son is in Rock n' Roll college in Boston. He has the perfect dad to indulge him in my, um, his fantasy.
My tastes in guitars are eclectic and electric. I have American guitars, Korean guitars, Mexican guitars, Chinese guitars (yes, they are making some great stuff over there!). Same with amps. I do not gig and never plan to, so all my amps are small, studio type things. But they all have killer tone. I'm not a great player; I can play all the notes, just not in order;^) But I love it. The dogs, now THEY have to leave the house whenever I'm playing because it hurts their ears (and mine;^)
Sorry for that really obscure Subject:line. I'm famous for them...
Hayword N. Edgewise
Director
Home for the Terminally Obscure
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Karl phoned last Friday, said they were working on the gun.
Knowing of no new machine development which did not require 'tuning' and adjustment periods, I have reason to believe the problems I have experienced are being addressed.
I am hoping all difficulties will be taken care of and the R9 will function to the levels expected.
When the gun returns, I'll run it through some range work and let youse all know.. :)
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Waiting... Waiting... Waiting...
"...time has stood still, since we're apart...."
Everybody, now: "I cain't stop loving you so I've made up my mind...."
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They fitted my gun with a new upper last Friday (the 18th), but Karl wasn't totally happy with it and wanted to play with it more.
I'd told Maria that "I'd rather have a good job than a fast job," so I'm just as happy that he's taking the extra time.
Hang in there - I'm sure we'll get our guns back soon. :)
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Well, Erich, as you can tell I have no immediate action plans RE this little gun.
Just sittin' and a-waitin'. Thet's me. 8)
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Can't resist the "guitar" sub-thread in here. I've been in one kind of band or another since the early '60s: folk, rock, country, even jazz. My current acoustics are a Martin SP00-16RST (only 75 made) and a J40. The J40 is a masterpiece of balanced tone, volume, and beauty and is a close to the "perfect" guitar that I've ever played. It's a high-end piece (MSRP about $4K); you can get one from Musician's Friend (www.musiciansfriend.com) a lot cheaper. Now in my early 60s, I'm moving toward acoustic bluegrass and back to folk (I've got an 18 wheeler in my left ear from too many years of loud amps). If you're interested in building your own guitar, Martin (www.martinguitar.com) sells complete kits: you can build your own Martin, but they don't sell the Martin decal to put on it. Guitars and guns: I think they go together nicely.
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Musician
Wish I had learned to play the strings. Since you mentioned folk - the sweet memories of folk in the 60's - now there was a special time in history. At work I leave an internet radio station playing most days that features the start of folk though the 60's. There was some good early 70's folk also.
Dave
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Musician
Wish I had learned to play the strings. Since you mentioned folk - the sweet memories of folk in the 60's - now there was a special time in history. At work I leave an internet radio station playing most days that features the start of folk though the 60's. There was some good early 70's folk also.
Dave
I saw a GREAT folk fest on PBS recently with Barry Maguire singing Eve of Destruction (STILL a great song!!) and Roger McGuin singing all the famous Byrds/Dylan hits. Ahhh. Dylan. The good ole days... Rickenbacker guitars. Hand wired tube amps. And for a price you could afford. At least back then...
Sigh!
Steve
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As much as I HATE to break up the discussion on guitars, I will just to let those who still follow R-9 topics know my gun has returned home. It's been gone just about a month.
UPS dropped it off yesterday afternoon and I'll be taking it to the backyard range later today.
I have my fingers crossed and will try a couple of different loads to see what happens.
From the note enclosed with the gun, the slide was replaced and Karl & Co. put several mags of various makes of ammo through it w/o a hiccough.
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Same here! :)
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Skyhook,
I'm glad it's back home.
Please tell how it is working as soon as you can.
As far as I'm concerned, this is important enough to deserve:
"Flash.......Interupt all services........Bulletin follows....".
Bill
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The facts, mam, just the facts..
Today, 12/02/05, I went to my backdoor range (temp 35deg F, wind WSW@ 5kts gusting to 10, humidity 50%), and fired 19 rnds of ammo from four different makers. I would have fired twenty, but my gun will not feed the Speer GD 124s w/o misfeeding. I had two FTF out of five on the very first mag load of five.
Here's a summary:
Make--------------- Ammo---------Results---------Mag----
Magtech 124Gr 2FTF/10rnds 1 each
Aguila 124Gr 1ftf/10 rnds 1good 5,
2nd 1ftf
Speer Lawman 124Gr 10 good/10
Speer Gold Dot 124Gr 2FTF/five--- 1 mag
only
Conclusions: 1) This particular gun does not like the Gold Dot.
2) It seems to like the Speer Lawman.
Notes: I will obtain some 115Gr ammo and try that before making any changes or further conclusions.
IF I can shoot the rest of the box of Lawman 124s w/o problems, I'll keep the gun and use it just with that load.
What is of interest is with all the 100s of shots fired with my Glock 27, Glock 36, and Glock 30, I have had not one FTF. And I have fired numerous of my handloads in the -36 and -30.
Until I get more reliability I will not even think of carrying the R-9 as primary defense weapon.
(Insert 'disappointed' smiley here)
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Well, it's discouraging to see any failures after the pistol received all that attention at the factory.
Because the pistol is so tiny, with a unique holding relationship between the hand and gun, would you consider installing some abrasive tape on the front and back of the grip?
It has already been well established that the tape makes a big difference. Chris even used the word "profound", and I heartily agree. I cannot even use the pistol without tape. It may work OK, but the pain is overwhelming.
If this is a case of your pistol trying to have a personality clash with its owner, then tape should put a stop to that, right away.
In addition, it would be interesting to see if a friend has any problems shooting the gun.
Meanwhile, like you said, that one brand seems to be doing fine.
Bill
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Skyhook,
My guns have fired very well with the WWB and the STHPs-both 115s of course..
Also the GDHPs-115s..Even the "reclassifieds"
I have not shot anything but 115 grainers in any of them.That's just me-I like the way they feed and the way I can keep em on a "plate" ;)
Please try the Winnie STHP 115s,If your results are anything like mine,I think you'll be pleased.. :)
Good shooting..
Brenden
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>>Hi Skyhook...
I really don't think it's fair to compare the results of your R9 to that of your Glocks. I have five Glocks, and like yourself - I've never experienced a feed problem. However, if I were to compare the function of my Glocks to every other gun I own...I would probably have surplused half of the guns I own before fully understanding them.
This is NOT to say you shouldn't expect reliability with your R9...just that the R9 is a different critter, as in one of those guns which can require some work to find the right ammo for...can take some re-think/focus in shooting technique...can benefit from mods - like abrasive tape on the grips...AND, I now firmly believe where as before it was a notion - is NOT for everyone = some few folks just canNOT get the things to work for them. I hope this is not the case for you, and that with a bit more trial and error work it will come to serve you like a faithful Hound.
Now before you lay into me for being nuts, I would like to share with you some of my R9 thoughts and experiences...
As mentioned a while back I own two R9s, one from early production, the other new. Up until last Summer I have been fortunate to enjoy/trust both guns with hardly a hitch after a bit of tinkering finding the right ammo and technique.
Catching up a bit from my earlier posts, this thread... Mid-Summer all of a sudden…just after a successful outing/both guns, and a good clean and re-lube BOTH guns started experiencing Failures to Feed with favorite defensive rounds (.115gr GDHP)…this being from the same batch of ammo they had been fine with...used seven different magazines with varying but not acceptable results. Simultaneously, both guns continued to cycle round nosed practice ammo just fine (.115gr Winchester White Box, .115gr Blazer in copper case).
I spoke to the factory about my probs and was asked to send the guns back ASAP. Instead, because I was so discouraged, I let them sit in my safe for several months before returning them around the time you sent yours back.
I Recently got my guns back along with a call from Karl and notes on repair (don't have them in front of me.) Going from memory here…there were no big smoking gun(s) to report, although they did remove some metal I think from the back of the barrels, and I believe they also did a good polish on the feed ramps…perhaps a bit more but I don't remember. Since the guns were there they replaced all the springs, although the large mainsprings had been replaced by me not all that long ago. A variety of ammo was run through both guns with no probs before sending them back to me. Interestingly, Karl said he is using .115gr Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Points in his gun…although I got the feeling it was more a matter of convenience than trial and error.
Before testing the guns myself, which I did only yesterday, I made some mods of my own just to make the guns more user friendly. First off a while back I got some pinky extension base plates from Pearce which were made for the Kahr Mk 9…with a little bit of whittling to fit the R9 I had a perfect fit. Next I tried to attach some grip tape I found in a hardware store (meant for deck use on boats), but could not get the stuff to stay on even after careful attachment – in black it looked pretty cool though…!…might have worked with another type tape. Also mentioned and used by Karl I added Pachmayr Rubber Grips, size #4 to both guns…these added two finger knobs (what else do you call them?), which in conjunction with the pinky extensions gave me a rock solid full two finger hold (might be three for other users) that was enhanced on the back of the grips by the rubber = niiiiiiice feel. So yesterday I finally made it to the range…
Admittedly I did not run extensive tests to both guns this time out, but I did run one mag each of four different types of ammo…two practice (.115gr Winchester White Box and .115 Blazer, this time with aluminium cases as used by the factory) and two defensive (.115gr Speer GDHP…same batch that failed last summer, and .115gr Winchester Silver Tips…as used by Karl). Guys…all I can say is every round cycled and fired perfectly…and with the grip mods the guns were almost pleasant to shoot…!!…at least this time my fat knuckles were not racked when shooting, which is a big improvement, and after firing 48 rounds total there was no fatigue…!! I can add that this control of the guns improved my accuracy dramatically (at five yards).
**See next post as this is deemed too long**
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** This is the is the follow up ending of my last post, which was deemed too long**
So now what…? Do I now trust these guns for my personal carry…?? I'm really not sure what to think long term just now. Call me stupid, but I'm going out of the house in a few minutes with an R9 in my pocket (and a Glock 26 in the car). Still, I plan to do more testing although not by blowing through 500 rounds…! One thing I'll do is find a safe place to cycle a bunch of rounds by hand. I'll also probably shoot only one gun for now…keeping the other in the safe until further notice. So unless something new causes me to loose confidence, again, I will do as Karl suggests…shoot a little, carry a lot…put a mag or two through it at the range every month or so, in part just to keep ammo fresh….although the R9 may just serve as a BUG to something else until I determine long term if this gun is really for me. And that’s all I have to say about that, for now.
Meanwhile, like so many others I see value in the Rohrbaugh Forum, not only as a vehicle to enhance old friendships and make new ones, but to share and learn more about the R9...and other stuff...TW<<
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Well, TW and Bill, it is a simple world from my point of view as I am a very simple country kid. Either something works for me or it doesn't.
If it works, I keep and cherish it (I've been married 43 years!)
If it does not work for me, I just get rid of it and will not let one of my friends invest in that same item without warnings.
See? It's that simple. Period.
When I invest in a machine, and want with all my heart for it to be a good machine, that machine either performs or I trash it. I have neither the inclination nor the personality to become a cheerleader for some failure-- mine or someone else's. I did not get where I am by wasting time and energy on junk.
Do (did) I want the R-9 to be a success-- JHC!, I invested about $1K into it-- would anyone with an ounce of good, American, conservative judgment suspect me of wanting a failure??
I am left with a smallish firearm which is providing me with numerous incidents which seriously cast a pall upon its reliability. Now, that has been absolutely established as fact.
My only hope- and it is a small one at that- is that the R-9 will digest the Speer Lawman with some dependability.
As to being "unfair" in my mentioning other, similar, firearms' reliability-- you've gotta be kidding. At least I hope you are.
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As to being "unfair" in my mentioning other, similar, firearms' reliability-- you've gotta be kidding. At least I hope you are.
It is unfair to compare a Rohrbaugh to a Glock. The R9 cost more than twice as much, is made from higher quality materials and gets more attention by the people who make it than the Glock.
So yes, it's an unfair comparison. Unfair ro Glock. The Rohrbaugh should win hands down in every way. It should be more reliable, more robust and more accurate.
But I think Skyhook has the correct standard in mind. Does it work? That's the bottom line.
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No person is a bigger fan of the R9S than me. Everything about it has been wonderful.
The only exception is painful recoil caused by the gun squirming in my hand. That was completely cured by using abrasive tape.
I set out to purchase the finest gun on the market, paid the money, and therefore expect nothing but stellar performance. The Rohrbaugh R9 has to always work perfectly, each and every time. I don't think we should bury our head in the sand, and pretend otherwise.
The first time mine fails, I will ask the factory to please help solve the problem, and will do everything possible to take corrective action. If a reliable solution could not be achieved, then it will be sold immediately. I would disclose everything to the buyer, of course.
I do concede that there seems to be a developing idea that the R9 works for some shooters, and fails for others.
I sincerely hope Jim will quickly find specific ammunition which will always function perfectly , absolutely each and every time.
Bill
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I suspect the "silent majority" will echo my sentiments: the R9s has fired without flaw for most of us. It has a powerful kick. Its a small concealment weapon. That's its advantage. Its designed for a specific purpose. Its not designed for target practice. How many times does one have to fire it in order to confirm that it is reliable? For improving my shooting skills I prefer my Glock 17 or my HK P7M8. In my pocket, happily concealed rests the R9s, hopefully never to be used in anger. Yes, I do believe that due to its size,and its kick, one's individual grip and hand control may affect its firing in quick succession. Again, was it designed for that? IMO it was realistically designed for self defense and firing at short distances and probably not more than 2-3 shots at a time. Those who claim FTF, let me ask: has it misfired on first firing? Has it failed to feed on the second or even the third shot? Or after four or five shots when your hand is in agony and your grip and technique are faltering?
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I'm not a big fan of recoil in a gun -- I avoid guns that kick too much. Yet I haven't found the recoil in my R9 to be bad at all. After 50 rounds (without skateboard tape on the grips, just the factory ones) I felt like I could easily do another 50.
Then I put the skateboard tape on the gun, and another range session of 35 rounds was also fine.
Both sessions were flawless. I'll go out for a third session this weekend, I think, if it isn't snowing too hard here.
I don't know how much grip has to do with the R9's performance... I don't know how limp a limp wrist has to be to affect the performance of a gun, or if it matters what brand or color of panties I am wearing. My Kel-tec has always been flawless. My 340 PD has always been flawless. My 1911 fails to chamber rounds regularly, but the spring is clearly tired and needs to be replaced. My NAA Guardian .380 had some serious problems, but after I sent it back to the factory, it was flawless after that. Every .22 I've ever fired has had problems, but they are unquestionably tied to the cheap bulk .22 ammo I plink with.
I agree that if I am struggling with someone, and have to fire the R9 with a 2 finger grip, it had better go bang that first time. But if I have to keep shooting in that position without being able to get a better grip, I may have worse problems than a limp wrist or questionable fashion sense. If I fired my 340PD with a two fingered grip while bent over backwards, I'd have to pick it up afterwards to fire it again, since THAT sucker has a kick to make Rambo whine, and I am a overweight-middle-aged schoolteacher and NOT a Special Forces Drill Instructor.
I certainly agree that if my R9 starts having failures, I will expect to fix it or sell it, and I sincerely doubt my grip, posture, excessive nose hair or terminal halitosis will have much to do with it. But, like I said, I'm a couch potato with a carry permit, not a firearms expert, so I probably shouldn't have jumped in here at all.
Peace
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For what it's worth, I believe the great majority of pistols are working fine. There only seems to be a tiny handful of reports here about defects.
I remember that Tom has reported that his customers are all satisfied and have no problems.
Mine works great. No sweat.
You just get a little uneasy when pistols are returned from the factory and they still misbehave.
This is not Skyhook's first cruise. He knows guns.
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>>Skyhook, et al…
I had a feeling I might receive the type of response I seem to be getting from my posts here. I would like to think I'm being mis-read, at least in part, but maybe not.
To begin with - I NEVER said anything about grip being critical to whether or not the gun works. What I SAID was that both the aftermarket pinky extension and slip on rubber grip provide me with better CONTROL, accuracy, and enjoyment of my R9s.
I did not insinuate nor do I support the idea that it's ok for the R9 to fail in any way. Neither am I a “cheerleader” for failure or junk. As matter of fact – since we seem to be getting personal here…by nature I tend to be rather critical about things, and people…probably more so than I should at times. I also have a short fuse and can have a really bad temper, with an attitude and physique to back it up, as needed – not that this has anything to do with the function of the R9, and is probably considered by some to be just another case of “stealing a thread”. No apologies offered.
What I DID intend to say is that for some people more than others and in the minority at this point, the R9 may require some experimentation, tinkering, and patience in order to prove reliable for them. For some people, like myself, this may mean sending your gun back to the factory, or it could mean re-training to become proficient with it – such as following through with the special clean and lubing protocol of the R9, which you would never need with a Glock. Or it could mean searching for and trying a wide variety of ammo in order to find just the one that works for you and spells reliability in your R9, like Speer Lawman or Silver Tips.
Just as certain people may have shorter fuses than others when it comes to tolerance…some people may get bored and tired of the effort just because their Lawman HP won’t work in their R9, while they have been feeding their Glocks a steady diet of the stuff for years. As far as I’m concerned – that’s ok. I’m sorry to say the R9 or any other such specialty gun, may not have been the right choice for you in the first place, period. That is exactly the reason why I have repeatedly gone out of my way in the past to invite folks considering this gun to join me at my range for a test drive – even offering some individuals a place to stay if traveling to do so. Because there are still relatively few R9s out there I believe this type of opportunity is so important that I have taken my R9s to out of state shoots where individuals have expressed such interest in trying them out. Do you really think I would go out of my way to do these things if I thought the R9 was a failure…?…does this make me a cheerleader for junk…? For what it’s worth - to this day none of the people who have tried my R9s have experienced one failure of any kind, but maybe that’s just luck.
Not that it is my responsibility, but for those folks who have not found their R9s to be reliable, I am sorry to hear it and hope you are able to get to the bottom of the problem with satisfactory resolve as I have (seemingly). And I’m sorry if you had to spend nearly a grand to find this out, often on top of a long wait to get it in the first place...TW<<
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All I can say is that I have two R9s (5##, 9##) - both have been absolutely perfect.
I have a Kal Tec - it is junk - can't do a mag without a FTF.
Have a Colt 1911 that can only shoot FMJ without misfeeds.
I am sure there are those who have Kal Tec and Colts that have been flawless and would take offense on this.
Only have use winchester silvertips and speer 115 GDHP. Have no desire to try all different brands of ammo if I have found someting that works.
Two R9s. No grip tape - although I can see how it may make shooting more comfortable. And once again absolutely perfect.
If your R9 is not working for you and sending it back to the factory did not work - then get rid of it. The R9 is not for you, as the Kel Tec and the 1911 seems to not for me. Get on with your life and get a gun that works for you and makes you happy.
I have no problem what-so-ever trusting my life to the R9 or the Seecamp.
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This thread has certainly drifted far from where it began, so I'm undecided whether to begin a new one or answer here. But I'd prefer to post here because it is where the current discussion is. My question is for Zamboni: I guess I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.
If your first gun experienced so many problems, why haven't you sent it back to have it looked at?
And if you've already spent the $1,000 on the second one, why not take it home and try it out to see if it works?
Clearly you were willing to risk $2,000 to buy guns that you expected to be worth trusting your life to. I guarantee you that there is not a gun model made by any manufacturer that is 100% perfect without anyone having problems. Guns are like cars, refrigerators, or any other mechanical device -- some are outright lemons, some need some repair and some are perfect.
I'm not "making excuses" or saying that mechanical problems are acceptible -- on the contrary, I expect a gun to work, and I'll take whatever steps necessary to get one that does -- fix it, or sell it and buy another. Unless I'm reading your post wrong, you haven't tried to fix the first one (by sending it back), yet you still bought another, but you won't try the other to see if it is better? I'm not flaming you or even attacking you, I just don't understand your reasoning.
Peace
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Since this thread has 'drifted' back to its original issue and since the topic is of a sensitive nature to some ($1K/a whack can make one a bit alert), I will try to tone down this some.
Remember, my experience with the Speer Lawman was 10 shots-- perfect.. no FTF, no jamming. THAT's all I expect from my guns. I like keeping my expectations simple.
As for 'limp wristing' as a probable explanation... I can't imagine that. I'll keep more alert to the possibility, however, since I have rerad of that being a factor in other semis malfunctioning.
Another factor which makes me doubt the 'limp wristing' is that I fire my .454SRH frequently-- mostly with .45LC, but every session ends with 15rnds of full-house 300gr going downrange. If I was prone to 'limp wristing' I think that piece would have split my scalp by now. Not only that, but I have large hands and wire houses-- just finished a 3-story job downstate.
Anyhow, all emotion out and denied, I still have a clear problem with reliability and it would be foolish and disingenuous of me to say otherwise.
One of my 'other jobs' involved being an arbitrator (15 yrs) and I do know the steps to take and the requirements needed if an issue is in need of resolution. I am no stranger to conflict, even though I really prefer a simple life. ;)
All I can say is I am really envious of you lucky guys with all those perfect R-9s... that's exactly what I wanted.
Too bad I don't believe in Santa any more... :-/
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Zamboni and Skyhook - let me first say that I feel your pain. I just read all of Zamboni's posts and read his excitment of getting the gun. Then after a few hundred rounds there was a slide crack and it was sent back. Then Zamboni disappeared from the forum. There was no mentions of FTF until now. That was SS# 531. One of my two R9s was built the same time - numbers are two apart - and it has been perfect. Would I be upset if I had continuous FTF - yes.
This gun just doesn't work for some people. I know it is hard for someone to admit this that has many years of shooting experience, but that seems to be the case.
I really look up to Erich. He has had several problems but he loved the gun so much he kept at it until he found a solution. Erich finally realized that even though he is what I consider a handgun expert he just couldn't get the the gun to work for him without getting FTF. Then he found that others shooting his gun didn't have problems. So he found a solution that works for him and is one of the R9s biggest fans.
I just read recently that one of the Rohbaugh brothers said that a friend who is a competition handgun shooter just could not get the R9 to work. When someone is having FTF problems and they send it back - and it is returned - I would assume that enough rounds was put through it on testing to list it as working well. Then the person gets it back and can't put a mag through it without a FTF. This tells me it is the ammo, shooter, or a combination of both.
I don't have the patience and expertise of Erich. I would have sold the gun and gotten a PM9 or something else to try. The same for Skyhook and Zamboni. Yes it may be the gun - then again it may be the gun just doesn't work for you. Either way the conculsion is the same.
You are unhappy - so get rid of it, and as I said in the above post, get on with your life and try another gun. I would do exactly that.
Whenever I use either of my two R9s they work fine. Then again if they didn't I would first try different ammo and check my shooting methods. If there was still a problem I would send them back for an evaluation. When returned and I still had problems they would be history. I suggest doing the same. A few guns with problems have gotten a lot of press here - the vast majority have worked fine.
Glocks have been praised up and down. Don't talk to me about Glocks. A malfuntioning Glock caused my bother to be shoot through the chest. The only thing that saved him was the bullet glanced off his metal cross pen and missed his heart. Didn't stop him having a quarter size exit hole in his back. Are all Glocks bad - I am sure not but this one almost killed him.
So in conclusion I'm saying that you are not happy with the R9. It has clearly been discussed in detail. I still think that most misfeeds are because the gun is not suited to that shooter. Sometimes that is hard to swallow if you are an experienced shooter. I am happy with my two R9s. If I were not I would just voice my reget and move on to another gun brand. The way that Sawbones handled his dissapointment was a class act.
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I'm another of the "unlucky" ones who has had FTF problems with my R9. After speaking with Karl R. I'm going to give it another try using his suggestions and if the problem persists, I'll probably send it to him to go over personally.
The only problem with that is, others have still had problems with their guns even after they were returned to the factory.
Karl admitted to me that the R9 is just not for everyone, and that is proving to be more true than he ever thought it would when he first said it. For example, he knows a guy who has Master status in IPSC and the guy can not fire a full mag through the R9 without a FTF. But Karl and others at the factory could not get the same gun to malfunction even when they tried. Go figure.
Karl and Eric are absolutely great guys who will go out of their way to make things right for you. That's rare these days. I'd love to be able to have complete confidence in my R9's reliability, but that's just not the case so far. I'm willing to give it some more time but if the gun requires a particular grip or shooting technique that is not natural for me, I don't think I could depend on it in a stressful situation, and stressful situations are when the gun would actually be put to use.
If I can't get it to work well for me, I'll sell it and regretfully move on.
What would be interesting to know, is if anyone who has had a FTF problem with their R9 has shot other R9s and had the same problem.
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I was just introduced into the world of 1911s of late and found out that even a $2000 to $5000 semi-custom-made gun cannot reliably feed all popular factory ammo, even some FMJs. This was the welcomed shock for me for my expectations were very high. But they were also unrealistic. What comforting, however, was that this specific custom gun manufacturer listed the recommended ammo by name & type known for reliable feeding. They even listed the ones they do not recommend. I liked that. It gives me a more realistic expectation for nothing man-made is perfect. And I am still a very happy camper and excited like a silly kid.
I also reported a FTF issue on this forum back in July and resolved it on my own. Since then, my R9 shoots reliably with GD124gr ammo and I will stick with this ammo for it works. I find that is very acceptable. And no need for any skateboard tape either:
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1122326096;start=
Consumers of anything newly designed are usually excited for being the 1st buyers. What they hardly realize is that leading-edged is, at times, bleeding-edged! Growing pain is expected. And I am glad that this forum allows our beloved gun grow together.
But then again, 1911 designs aren't that new either; it's darn old!
Cheers!
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MountainMan, thanks ever so much for the kind words. :)
Skyhook, again, I'm sorry to hear of your difficulties.
Zamboni, you should do whatever makes you comfortable. Myself, I'm fine with my R9s as a pocket gun for those situations when I otherwise wouldn't be able to carry due to mode of dress. I know it'll work once regardless of how I hold it (the only problems I've ever experienced with my odd-shaped hands are failure to feed) - and "bent over a car" (as you say), once would be enough. (And I might keep playing with my pistol to see if I can develop a one-hand hold that works for me. But that's up to me.) And my R9s has worked 100% for all my regular-handed gun friends so far.
I have to say, Zamboni, that I have found your tone to be a little strident on this page. I feel like you're acting frustrated with us but I don't understand why - certainly no one forced you to go buy TWO $1k guns that don't work for you. I don't think you should keep any product that doesn't make you comfortable - Rohrbaughs don't last a week in the stores here in New Mexico, so I suspect you'll be able to sell yours quickly.
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Really no need to add much - it has all been said very well by several in the last few posts.
I will emphasize what Cuteo said re some 1911's - even the real ''high end'' ones sometimes - a few guys have 100% success - and are all praise - then another has the exact opposite, with problems out the box. These cost mega bucks too very often.
I do think also, and darned hard to really quantify this - it does seem with very small semi's that on occasions a gun just does not suit a shooter. Again thinking 1911's - the Springer Micro has been loved and hated - a 3" version of JMB's masterpiece does seem potentially prone to problems sometimes - then, sometimes not!!
I think the R9 is ''on the edge'' somewhat as a platform - highly refined, exquisitely engineered but - in some ways pushing the envelope. Add to that with its diminutive size - I really do not think there is any way it can perforce and automatically ''fit'' everyone - thus grip tape for some and not others etc - it is no failing of the gun and its design - these are personal preferences, just the same as we add Hogues to one gun and Pachmayrs to another. Erich has well described his personal way of helping him with grip.
Each time I hear of someone's problem I sympathize greatly - made all the worse by knowing mine are just dandy! I do empathize with Zamboni even tho his recent writings have been rather acerbic towards us here it seems.
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Zamboni:
Do you want to sell yours? If so, I'm interested. In case my "early bird" (No. 132) goes lame, I would like to have some spare parts.
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Zamboni,
Well said; I think we all feel your frustration because
we are somewhat in this together. If some thought you
were a bit rough in tone you redeemed yourself very
well.
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Zamboni - yes - indeed I hope I was not too nasty with my criticism of your tone. ;) It was a spur of moment assessment!
I do honestly share your frustration and angst - it is understandable. I appreciate your acknowledgement of this and the apology - I guess we prickle sometimes :)
I really would like to see your #1 pup go back for a full appraisal. If as you say you had several LEO buddies go shoot it - AND find problems then almost for sure, something ain't right. However much I laud the Bros R and the gun - I (and they too I'll bet) would concede that a ''problem child'' just could escape the system! Look at it this way - if it goes back and gets returned with the seal of approval then a) you may find all is well for you or b) you can sell in the firm knowledge that it has passed with flying colors.
I really would like you to come out of this, not being out of pocket and also - with hopefully not bitter memories of your experiences. We here (me for sure anyways and I think I speak for others) - genuinely wish for you to find satisfaction - by one route or another. We are a tight knit group - one guy's problems affect us all - and we wish only success to everyone - whatever that may finally mean. :)
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One of the underlying bottom lines is that none of of us
wants a paper-weight that isn't worth a "Grover". That
will work itself out one way or the other and, I suspect, that
the problem will be resolved. What is frustrating is the
random characteristics of the FTF's.
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I was remiss in not stating a cause for hope and high expectations.
Please note: One of the crippling characteristics which my gun possessed before I sent it back was the failure- using all kinds of various rnds- to hand feed from the magazine. The rnd would just nose into the front of the mag or the edge of the bbl and stop.
Karl's crew fixed that completely-- every time I inserted the mag and cycled the slide, a rnd was fed into battery.
Progress.
Now, if only the FTF can be addressed and mullified, I'll have the gun I always wanted. I haven't quit, yet.
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This thread must be getting to championship length!
I've lost track of some of the terms:
FTF
FTFire - I intiially had a few with Remington economy box practice rounds. Very hard primers was my conclusion
FTFeed - I've had a few of these with 124 gr. GDHPs since changing recoil springs. And they're the bad kind where a round doesn't fully chamber while the magazine tries to feed another round, jamming the gun solid. It takes a shove with my StopStick on the round in the mag to get things working again. Makes me wish for a slide lock, because you really need three hands to clear the jam.
Next range session (08-Dec), I'm going to put the old spring back. If I continue to have FTFeed malfunctions I'll be contacting the Rohrbaugh people.
Interesting that the first 200 rounds were troublefree & my troubles began after I changed the recoil spring because it had shortened by two full coils. What's that old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" ;)
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Interesting that the first 200 rounds were troublefree & my troubles began after I changed the recoil spring because it had shortened by two full coils. What's that old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" ;)
Interesting you say that. Mine was failing to feed as well, until I let it sit for several months. The spring is noticably weaker now and it feeds and fires just fine. I'm not anxious to change the spring at all.
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When the time comes, I also will be very reluctant to make a spring change.
I bet we will learn more about this in the future, and possibly see a revision in the instructions.
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I plan when I do a spring change - a while to go yet - to leave pup with slide held back for some good while - to sorta ''pre-load'' the new spring.
As we have all found, there is quite some change over time and use with a spring - but I wonder tho if when a spring gets significantly shortened and ''tired'' whether, despite better functioning, there is also a chance with the weaker effective rate, of ''beating up the gun''.
Seems there is a middle ground with this recoil spring as we see it so far - new is possibly too strong. Old is maybe allowing excessive stress on the gun. Somewhere between is the ideal. I wonder what Wolff would say on this and whether despite all the R&D done - there is some scope remaining for useful change.
I look at the spring on my SIG's - this is a triple spiral wind of smaller gauge wire, to make up the whole - this is similar to what we see in AK's. I wonder if this confers greater durability. As time goes on I link problems more and more to spring matters.
Oh and BTW - folks may be interested to know that my SIG springs have ends which are not actual ''closed ends'' - many people make comments on the R9 spring having one open end!
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Please note: One of the crippling characteristics which my gun possessed before I sent it back was the failure- using all kinds of various rnds- to hand feed from the magazine. The rnd would just nose into the front of the mag or the edge of the bbl and stop.
Karl's crew fixed that completely-- every time I inserted the mag and cycled the slide, a rnd was fed into battery.
Progress.
Now, if only the FTF can be addressed and mullified, I'll have the gun I always wanted. I haven't quit, yet.
>>Hi Skyhook...
I'm a little confused here by what you said... I'm hearing that Karl fixed the FTFeed problem...but then you say the gun still needs to have the FTF problem addressed...? Do you mean FTFire...??
When my guns both started to experience FTFeed it was after their routine clean & lube jobs. BTW...both guns were "cold" when I did this, having done my most recent shooting two days prior. I mention this because Karl asked me about it...speculating that a "hot" gun, as in just come off the range, might be more prone to FTFeed.
Regarding springs...#1 gun experienced FTFeed after 20 shots on the large mainspring, #2 gun had 89 shots on it...so in my case I kinda doubt the new spring/old spring thing was an issue. However of interest...as mentioned by SSLater - my guns both started to feed better after sitting in the safe untouched for several months. Out of curiosity - does anyone know of a way to test the strength of the recoil springs...?...as in poundage when fully compressed, I guess. This could prove useful information - if not with fixing the FTFeed issues, may be of help in determining scientifically when to change out springs.
My focus on FTFeed probs and fix is currently centered on the condition of the feed ramp attached to the barrel. I base this in part on what Cuteo100 told us about treating his feed ramp to a polish and treatment with Miltec-1 oil...and the fact Karl spoke about having cleaned and polished mine while back in the shop...he might have said something about modifying them during our phone chat, but I don't have that in my notes (he did speak about modifying the back of the barrels, although I have yet to look and see what that is about). But then there was no mention of modifying either the barrels or ramps in the written report - only mention of a "Barrel tune"...what ever that is...and it may be worth asking again. Thoughts, anyone...?
Oh, and Skyhook... I'm glad to hear you haven't given up on your R9 just yet. To me,thus far, the headaches and delays have been worth it to have my R9s seemingly back to specks and in my pocket. Notice I am using terms like "seemingly", because I too will have a limit as to what it's worth to keep them going. I know you will have your limit as well. I just that if you do get frustrated again that you don't take it out on the rest of us here...or at least not me...lol...! Good luck with your gun and please keep us posted on things...maybe consider some of the issues and ideas folks have brought up this thread.
Later...TW<<
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My personal experience with dual-recoil spring guns (my H&K USP .40 has one) is that when the outer spring starts to get too weak for the job you can actually feel the slide slamming back. Change the spring and that "slamming" sensation goes away. That's why I made the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
remark. 8)
When a spring takes a set, the spring rate doesn't change much but it generally loses the load specification at the spring installed height. In an engine valve spring that means the spring can't hold the valve shut tightly enough. On a recoil operated semi auto handgun I guess it would mean the spring can no longer supply enough muscle to make the slide reliably strip the next round from the magazine and go fully into battery.
I like R9SCarry's plan to leave the slide back for a good long time. Think I'll do that for two nights before my next range session.
If the pup wasn't so hard to field strip, I'd like to change springs in the middle of my range session. But I can just picture that recoil spring cap zipping down the range. I think I'll buy a spare cap before trying a for-real field strip.
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TW, there are two distinct FTF (failures to feed) which the R-9 presented me. One was the FTF while the gun was firing and trying to strip the next rnd from the mag.. the second was the FTF as I was attempting to rack the slide and get the empty gun into battery.
The former is the ongoing problem, the latter is that which the factory's team eradicated.
It is too dark to attempt a range session at present or I would attempt a run of those Speer Lawman rnds. through the gun.. maybe tomorrow.
As for giving up on the R-9, I'll do that only if I feel my options have been exhausted. That has not yet occurred..
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I apologize for any confusion as to my use of FTF as it seems to mean 'failure-to-feed' AND, to some, 'failure-to-fire'.
My fault.
FTF has always, to me, meant failure to feed while MF meant 'misfire', ie, failure to fire.
These terms need to be defined and set apart one from the other. (What do the Marines use??) ???
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Semper Fi!
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Every activity seems to have its own language, doesn't it?
I can live with FTF meaning only failure to feed, & Misfire meaning failure to fire. Now if we can get the rest of the gun world to agree.....
Some years back I was going nuts trying to pin down objectively what the various trigger-related terms meant. My first resource was the NRA Fact Book. Not much help there. I wrote to the NRA (never got an answer) as well as a few of the technical type gunwriters like Dick Metcalf and Ross Seyfried (no answers from them either.) Finally, Metcalf and Seyfried both authored articles on computerized trigger function analysis. With graphs. Now terms like take-up, let-off, stacking make as much sense to me as the obvious ones like grittiness, & overtravel.
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Ok, I'll go along with theFTF = Failure to Fire
And MF = Misfire..
Thankfully we do not seem to be concerned with that 'KB!' thang.. ;)
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>>Hi Skyhook...
Regarding springs...#1 gun experienced FTFeed after 20 shots on the large mainspring, #2 gun had 89 shots on it...so in my case I kinda doubt the new spring/old spring thing was an issue. However of interest...as mentioned by SSLater - my guns both started to feed better after sitting in the safe untouched for several months.
Later...TW<<
As I've said before, I've just cleaned, lubed and installed a new spring* in my R9S, but have yet to test it. I've saved the old spring, just in case. I'm really, really interested in this recoil spring topic. My curiosity is getting me to think that in an extremely small gun, like ours, the springs may be the single most important contributor to the function of it. I will go to the range soon, and see what happens. Now only if I had that shooting can...
Steve
*the one sent with the gun originally
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Speaking of springs, I have noted my gun came with an extra - I have not seen that before with any of my other numerous purchases.
I wonder if Wolf Springs would be able to retro-fit for the R-9?
I think its Wolf which makes all kinds of springs for various firearms.. (?)
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Wolff is generally regarded as one of the highest quality spring manufacturers.
In fact, the factory springs are made by Wolff. Wolff was actively involved in the R-9 development and helping Karl to get to the smallest possible size.
I keep telling everyone -- all the component parts are of the highest quality... :)
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Speaking of springs, I have noted my gun came with an extra - I have not seen that before with any of my other numerous purchases.
I wonder if Wolf Springs would be able to retro-fit for the R-9?
I think its Wolf which makes all kinds of springs for various firearms.. (?)
You can get them at the Rohrbaugh site, if that's what you mean. I'm thinking I better buy some spares, too!
Steve
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Zamboni:
Reply PM sent.
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Well, ok, I have attached the 'skate bd.' friction tape to the front and back straps of the grip.
I hope to take the gun out this afternoon... we'll see.
(Still haven't quit trying...)