The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: 9mil.mouse on August 19, 2004, 07:27:36 PM
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How many of you carry your Rohrbaugh with an empty chamber, as recommended in the manual? I'll start off by admitting that I don't. I use holsters which cover the trigger, and I carry the little gem with a round already in the chamber. 8)
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Well, first off, I don't even HAVE a Rohrbaugh !! :'( :P ::)
But if I did, it would be in a damn good pocket holster and have a round chambered.. ;D
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An empty chamber = one less round I can use in an emergency......not to mention the extra second or so to chamber a round.
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That is ridiculous lawyer crap... (no offense intended). All gun manuals say never to carry a gun loaded. The Glock manual says that different procedures may be employed by highly trained law enforcement or military personnel or something similar.
The gun is designed to be carried with a round in the chamber. No other method makes a whole lot of sense to me. I am sure the Rohrbaughs would tell you the same thing -- especially if their lawyer wasn't looking... ::)
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I'm bad too, I keep a round in the chamber and when I carry a revolver I keep a round ready in the cylinder.
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I'm with DDGator on this one. And I'm a lawyer -- a Second Amendment lawyer, but still and all a lawyer.
As for my personal opinion, if you carry a defensive DAO pistol without a round up the spout, you might as well have a rock in your pocket. In such a weapon, the effort required to pull the trigger and a quality holster covering the trigger and its guard are the safeties -- coupled, of course, with the good judgment and training of the person carrying the weapon.
RS
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Honestly, I wasn't encouraging flames toward lawyers, I should have seen that coming. I know we have several fine members of that profession on this forum. I'm just interested to see if anyone actually does carry with an empty chamber.
It's too bad the standard wording can't be something more appropriate and useful, like "carry in a suitable holster that covers the trigger so the firearm won't discharge accidentally" or something similar that reflects what is really needed for safe carry for whatever the particular weapon is.
I like the rock in the pocket analogy, RS. ;D
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Well, first off, I don't even HAVE a Rohrbaugh !! :'( :P ::)
But if I did, it would be in a damn good pocket holster and have a round chambered.. ;D
Any holster maker you care to reccomend?
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Just agreeing with the ''choir'' here but yeah ..... in-very-deed ..... one ''up the spout'' for diddly sure.
This lil pup is about as safe as an auto gets .... with that long but smooth 7 lb trigger pull .... heck, to achieve ''blast-off'' really does require a whole lot more than some accidental pressure exerted.
I also carry ''chambered and ready'' with revo ... no empty chamber ... and IMO the pup is every bit as safe as any revo in this respect. Totally.
My only concession to empty chamber is with S/A's .. my 1911 and BHP .. I carry those condition #2 .. purely because I came to S/A carry so late that I have not the degree of self confidence for cocked and locked. OTOH - if have my P97 or P95 on board then - condition #1 ... they are D/A-S/A and decockers ... and as safe as the pup.
The ''empty chamber'' in manuals is purely to satisfy the legal dept as far as I have ever been aware.!
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9mil.mouse:
No flames were perceived. Besides, there are "lawyers," and then there are "Lawyers."
RS
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9milMouse is not to blame for any lawyer bashing -- that was me that started it. :P
The lawyers here on the forum know that I meant no disrespect. In fact -- I think the will agree that language is crazy lawyer talk. ;D Its hard to define, but I know it when I see it!
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DDgator - heretofore and henceforth known as the ''administrator'' of this forum ... herewith doth decree that you - ''the membership'' ... all torts excepted - be hereunto and henceforth .... under said administrator's first phalanx ... otherwise to be known as ''thumb''. Retribution shall be extracted should members step out of line or transgress in an excessive and unseemly fashion, not withstanding mediating circumstances and exceptions. Should excesses leed to banning proceedures, a lien will be taken on private ownership of pistol R9 (Rohrbaugh manufacture).
A poor attempt at ''legaleze'' :D ;D :D ;D
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Chris:
Not bad. Not bad at all. Do you have time to enroll in law school at night? There is an excellent one in your area. I suspect that our cause is going to need every good "Lawyer" we can get in the coming years -- and I'm becoming old, my friend. I'm becoming old.
RS
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[size=13] Do you have time to enroll in law school at night?[/size]
No way Jose!!!! ;D ;D
I too Richard am becoming old .. which is of course all relative .. but I know my limitations (I think!). :P
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Chris:
Oh, well, then . . . we're just going to have to circle the wagons and depend on some of the Young Turks of the Forum to carry on when we're gone.
However, in the words of Dylan Thomas, I do not intend to "go gentle into that good night." I intend to "rage, rage at the dying of the light."
Enough. I'm out of here for today.
RS
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Richard - indeed - circle the wagons! :) ''Go gentle'' .. haha .... no way - rage all the way!
Sleep well Sir - later.
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Remember the Lawyer Calhoon, on the "Amos and Andy Show"?
"What we has here, Andy, is a case of "Korpus Delitti"
or something like that. :-[
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[size=13] a case of "Korpus Delitti"[/size]
Wasn't that ''flagrante delecto'' RJ? ..... Oops no - maybe not!! ;D ;D
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It has always grated on me when actors in the movies chamber a round in their automatics for dramatic effect. No professional would ever carry a modern, high quality automatic without a round in the chamber. Every automatic I carry has a chambered round when I carry it.
With that said, many of the automatics, pocket and otherwise, made in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, before this modern age of litigation, were, due to their design and the materials used in their construction, unsafe to carry with a round in the chamber. I still have a couple, that are in my safe for sentimental reasons, that belonged to my Grandfather. One of them is a striker fired Ortgies .32 that, due to a poorly designed striker and sear mechanism, could go full automatic in your pocket.
Just a thought on the subject.
Frank
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I routinely hear the sound of a Glock's hammer being cocked in the movies when the actor gets serious about shooting someone... Give me a break.
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[size=13] could go full automatic in your pocket.
[/size]
Shooter - the mind boggles!! What if the ''jewels'' got in the way .... ouch!! ;D
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This lawyer has a different take on the "warning" issue.
By not structuring the warnings to correspond to the actual way that the gun is designed to be used, aren't they encouraging users to ignore the other, better thought out warnings as well?
If someone were killed because they didn't have time to chamber a round, would their relatives have a claim for causing the death by providing improper instructions.
Haven't they therefore actually increased their potential liability by not recommending carrying the gun with a loaded chamber and covered trigger area?
::)
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Bill .... this almost seems a ''catch 22'' .... the gun maker is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't!!
I guess - perhaps - the manual couold cover both aspects. Viz .....
''It is recommended for maximum safety to keep the chamber empty. However to maximize self protection a chambered round is desirable, at the discretion of the owner''!!!
Some way to cover all bases???
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First, there are enough lawyers on this board to make up a fairly large mob.
Second, from Rohrbaugh's lawyer's point of view, you cannot have an AD if the firearm isn't loaded. That is why that stupid language is in there. It is simple CYA boilerplate. From a practical point of view, the language makes no sense. It is like buying a car with the recommendation that people remove the engine to avoid traffic accidents. If people wanted a horse they would buy a horse.
As to legal language--if you want to write as a lawyer, you need to capitalize everything. Something happens to people when they go to law school. They forget how to write, or at minimum, forget third grade grammer rules. It drives me nuts.
Another bit of trivia, lawyers consume more highlighters than any other group of people in the world, and not just in one color either. We need a rainbow. Even with multiple colors, lawyers will then underscore the highlighted text in ink as well, just to be certain nothing is missed. As a result, the only text that is "highlighted" is the text not highlighted.
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It's a good thing Gun-Tests didn't bother to read the Rohrbaugh manual. Imagine the added criticism they could have come up with.
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My firearms are always loaded. One in the tube.
On and off duty.
Firearm in pocket or right hip in a Fobus paddle holster.
Under a one pocket T-shirt. Yes, my wife doesn't like it.
Because they always have little holes in them.
I do not know it she even likes me after 39 years?
I can wait to get the R-9 s. The longer I wait on my order the better it will be. I have faith. Rohrbaugh said I may have in in Oct. and I will be happy when I get it No rush.
I plan on it being in uniform shirt pocket or left front pants pocket.
Everything in its time.
And Just purchased a 2003 motor bike V-Star 1100 cc.
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Bill .... this almost seems a ''catch 22'' .... the gun maker is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't!!
I guess - perhaps - the manual couold cover both aspects. Viz .....
''It is recommended for maximum safety to keep the chamber empty. However to maximize self protection a chambered round is desirable, at the discretion of the owner''!!!
Some way to cover all bases???
If I were writing the manual, I would start with the idea that the gun is intended for people who are properly trained in its use, and encouraging any untrained purchasers to seek proper training.
I would then list the basic rules of firearms safety, saying that it should be unloaded unless being kept in a high state of readiness.
Then I would list the proper precautions for a high state of readiness (covered trigger when holstered, never sotred in any manner that could possibly permit anything to enter the trigger area, locking the gun up when not in your immediate control).
I would then throw in a complete and nasty-sounding list of the potential consequences if the above precautions aren't followed (serious injury or death, liability for anything or anyone your bullet hits, liability for a child getting hold of the gun, liability if the gun is stolen and used in a crime, etc.).
I think that would cover them as well as anything.
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Chambered and ready to "Rock & Roll". 8) I do have a .22mag NAA Mini I also carry in which I leave the hammer on an empty chamber because there is no trigger guard and they are single action only anyways. I just dont trust the half cocked safety in my pocket.
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Gunner930
The current NAA Mini's have a safety notch between the charge holes. The hammer can be safely lowered into this notch, and be between two of the five live rounds. If your Mini is not this configuration, NAA will convert it free of charge.. :)
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Duane, Gunner ....... can either of you give me a weight on the NAA Mini?? Never even seen one close up - and wondering what the ''pocket burden'' actually is.
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Specifications:
Caliber: .22 Magnum
Capacity: 5
Material: 17-4 pH stainless steel
Barrel Length: 1 1/8"
Overall Length: 4 3/4"
Overall Height: 2 7/8"
Width: 7/8"
Weight: 5.9 oz. unloaded
Suggested Retail Price: $208.00
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Caliber: .22 Magnum
Capacity: 5
Material: 17-4 pH stainless steel
Barrel Length: 1 5/8"
Overall Length: 5 1/4"
Overall Height: 2 7/8"
Width: 7/8"
Weight: 6.2 oz. unloaded
Suggested Retail Price: $208.00
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RJ .. excellent and thx.
Wow, that is one lightweight lil' fella. Almost tempted to aquire one for ''the stable''. :)
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I recommend the 1- 1/8" bbl length.
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The NAAs minis are super-high quality pieces -- almost like jewlery. You get a lot of value for the money. A new .22 Mag will cost you around $175. And -- they shoot amazingly well.
I agree with RJ. There gun is 100% safe with all five rounds when you place the hammer into the safety slot between the cylinders. If your gun is really too old for that -- NAA will convert it. No reason to carry with a round down.
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RJ, you are right! I have a regular 22lr version that isn't. I have owned it for a few years. The .22 mag I purchased about a month ago and I assumed it was the same. duhhhhhh :-[ Just goes to show one should always read the manual on every gun you buy even if you think you already know all about them. Again, duhhhh ::)
Chris, I too recommend them. You can also get an optional .22lr cylinder for the magnums. There are several grips from NAA and other makers you can dress them up with. Note: it is recomended not to fire with the genuine mother-of-pearl grips installed. I have the fake ones on my .22lr and they really sets it off.
I have killed many a copperhead with CCI snake shot in my .22lr . I am getting the conversion cyl. for my magnum soon.
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I am not so slowly being talked into aquiring one! ( Hi Honey!!) .... :P
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Hi Folks,
Just wanted to jump in here and add a tidbit of info on the NAA 22s. I bought a Mag 1 5/8” barrel. I was pleased with the operation but never quite got the hang of the sight picture (front blade, no rear notch). I hesitated buying a Black Widow because the grips are so big, making quite a lump in the pocket. Though I have never read this in articles or advertising, the handle under the big grips is exactly the same handle as the 22 Mag. I bought one and put the wood grips from the 22 Mag onto the Black Widow. The BW is about 3/8” longer than the 22 Mag (1 5/8” barrel). In short pockets the handle can be easy to spot if not careful but better sights. Always a trade-off.
I would really like to see a fair and objective study of the effectiveness of the 22 Mag as well as all the smaller rounds.
Anxiously waiting for my R9s.
Craig T.
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A photo of a BW w/ the small grips, in a Hedley holster ::)
http://hedleyholsters.com/naamini.html
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Very nice. Makes me want to start carrying the BS again.
CraigT
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Carry the BS? Ha Ha Ha Ha. ;D
I think you mean carry the BW? :o
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I hoped that was what he meant.. :o
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Oops.
BS not good to carry. (Though many would say the BW is BS.)
Sorry folks.
Craig T.