The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Erich on August 16, 2005, 02:57:08 PM
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I just got off a ten-minute conference with Karl Rohrbaugh . . . I'd called the other day when trying to decide whether to buy a R9s to ask about the bullet stabilization issues I'd read about with the 147-grain bullets. Mr. Rohrbaugh graciously returned the call (I told him it was moot because I had already gone ahead and bought the gun anyway), and I got to hear some interesting stuff.
He's got over 800 guns built and out there now. Karl says they're getting better and better - Bill Wilson has wondered to Karl how Karl can sell the guns for the price that he does - the other folks building the guns are true technicians and some are former jewelers. He's had 10-15 returned, in total. Of those, half were due to owner reassembly errors or failure to clean. Karl stressed what he's said all along - this is a gun for experts - and told me that he has been able to diagnose limp-wristing problems by phone (bullets standing straight up in the mag).
Karl and I discussed the 147-grain bullet stabilization problems that I'd read about, and told me that they were due to freebore problems in that barrel. We discussed my desire to use that bullet - Karl wondered why I would want to use that heavy a bullet (I explained my thoughts - I've worked on over 100 handgun killings and find penetration to be second only to shot-placement in importance), since it would tend to batter the gun more than a lighter bullet and would recoil more heavily and therefore make follow-up shots more difficult. Karl recommended 115-gr Silvertips for the Rohrbaughs, and says that's what he carries.
Karl also said that he's amazed at folks who shoot their Rohrbaughs a lot (reporting that one man complained that his pistol was showing wear after being fired 500 times - though I've read reports by people who've fired several times that amount with no significant wear). He says you should shoot enough to be able to stay capable with it, but notes that his two-year-old gun has only had about 200 rounds through it. He said that he is capable nevertheless of 25-yd head shots with his gun on IPSC targets (I mentioned that I had seen the online video - he replied that his computer is a number two pencil), and that the gun is easy to use to hit human targets at the three-foot to seven-yard distances for which it is intended. Karl also mentioned how Larry Seecamp Sr. once said that if you need the sights at the distances for which his pistol was designed, you shouldn't be shooting it.
Here's something that might be of interest: Karl says he's got two new guns coming out in the SHOT show, "but that's all I'm going to say." I told him that the gun I bought was precisely the gun I've wanted for years, so I can't anticipate needing another - but that that was exciting news indeed. (It might not be news at all to forum members, but it's the first I've heard of it.)
Karl ended the conversation with a gracious parting wish that I'd never have to shoot anything but paper. Amen to that! What a nice man - as everyone has commented before, it's amazing to have the president of the company personally answer your call about a product, and then take so much time visiting with you and giving you advise. :)
By the way, I'm going crazy. In typical NM fashion, Fed Ex delivered my Rohrbaugh to my (older) FFL friend at 6:30 p.m. My friend goes to bed very early, so I couldn't pick the gun up last night. Tonight my wife and I have committed to going to a concert with some friends after work - that means I WON'T BE ABLE TO PICK UP MY ROHRBAUGH UNTIL TOMORROW! :'(
Fie! ;)
Anyway, I thought you might want to hear about my conversation with Karl.
cheers, erich
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Thanks for the phone summary - it was very interesting. First I heard of Karl using Silvertips. Maybe I missed it. I would assume then that they feed well. I would guess that the new guns would be a different caliber.
Let me give you my welcome Erich. Nice to have you aboard. Hope to hear how the R9 shoots for you. Hope to have mine delivered next month.
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Uh oh. I am already getting roasted on Glock Talk about the gun having a limited service life and Karl saying it is designed to "carry a lot and shoot a little"... This will add fuel to the fire.
To many "experts" on-line, if you can't put thousands of rounds through the gun in practice, it is irresponsible to carry it at all. ;)
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I should clarify my understanding of that part of the conversation, DDGator: I didn't understand that Karl meant that the gun wouldn't stand up to a lot of rounds, but rather "Why would anyone shoot this gun as if it was a race gun? It's meant for pocket carry and bottom line self defense." The complaints about wear at 500 rounds were, I believe, aesthetic complaints about markings on the barrel and such (which my Glocks certainly develop by that point in their lives).
I would also think the new models would be different caliber/s. .40? .45? We'll see, I guess.
Gents, thanks for the welcome! :)
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Duane:
I checked out that thread on Glock Talk. You're doing a fine job over there of "spreading the gospel." There are some people, however, who simply will not be "saved." ;)
To use an equine analogy, the Rohrbaugh is a Thoroughbred, not a Clydesdale.
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GT . . . what are you going to do?
I went ahead and added my understanding of what Mr. Rohrbaugh meant by the comment to the GT thread, based on what he told me yesterday. Hope it helps.
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Erich - excellent account of your contact with Karl. I have enjoyed one or two chats with him and many with Eric - two finer gentleman we will not find, in business anywhere.
I am one as most know - who in all honesty sees little benefit (or even great pleasure if truth be known) out of shooting huge amounts of ammo thru the pup.
Don't get me wrong I do enjoy shooting it - simply because I love the gun but let's face it - in the comfort zone it is not the kindest to the hand - and I'd not expect different, so that is no criticism at all.
I have many guns that are ''recreational'' - but the R9 is a very specific purpose piece - as we know - CCW, pocket - acceptable cal etc etc. That is why I have it - not a toy, but an honest to goodness effective very concealable piece of fine engineering.
Erich - are you EMS or similar? I know the subject of wounds etc seems morbid but I suspect we all have some fascination with relative effectiveness of ammo - so can you elaborate a shade more on your experience? Not trying to be pushy and understand if you prefer to avoid the subject.
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No, I'm an appellate criminal defense lawyer. I've been doing it for a while - I've seen a pile of OMI reports, and read piles and piles of expert testimony on specific bullet wounds. :P
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Thx Erich.
Maybe we could start a new thread but - seems like you are following the ''heavier bullet'' path from what you have seen.
Can you add to that with any correlation per shot placement - which in the end I always feel is the critical factor.
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I have a suspicion as to the calibers at least...
.380 ACP. This is almost a given based upon other info I have previously posted here. I fired a working prototype in .380 ACP well-over a year ago.
.45 ACP. I have no definite knowledge of this, but it is my suspicion that is based on at least a litte more than mere whimsy. ;)
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R9SCarry, I agree. Obviously, shot placement is essential.
But I've seen a lot of guys hit in the right place who didn't stop, because the bullets didn't go deep enough. It's odd, whether hit in the skull or the torso, even FMJs often don't penetrate very far. This to some extent depends on the caliber (.22s, .25s, 32s, 380s don't seem to be so hot - although I've worked on killings committed with all of them), but also is probably somewhat dependent upon simple physics: momentum and sectional density.
What really seems to do the trick in putting someone down right away is a hit to the brain (very rare), the upper spine (astonishingly rare), or the aorta (the most common stopper I see - comes up again and again). Interestingly, the heart itself doesn't seem to be hit nearly as often as the aorta (probably because it's pretty well protected under the sternum, etc.).
I certainly have seen people who have just flat bled out and died, but they don't tend to go down anywhere near quick.
I would also note that one-shot kills are pretty unusual. This fact was what led me to change from high-powered heavy-recoiling rounds like the .41 or .357 magnums carried in light guns like the Taurus 415Ti (21 oz) or the S&W 340 (c. 11 oz). I felt that the odds were good that I'd need a fast follow-up shot in a self-defense situation, and didn't feel that these little pocket rockets could provide it, regardless of how much I trained. This led me back to the good ol' 9mm, which is controllable in rapid fire and which penetrates adequately.
A note on what I've seen vis-á-vis penetration: it's pretty amazing how many times a person's arm or hand gets interposed between the pistol and the torso (must have to do with the reflexive defensive movement of throwing a hand up to ward off the bullet). But the upper arm is also often penetrated on shots coming in from the side. Based on the handgun killings that I've seen (a lot - I've been at this job for almost 11 years seeing reports on more than 10 a year, and I worked on quite a few other handgun killings before I took this particular job), I feel that I personally want my bullet to be able to traverse completely through a torso side-to-side . . . just to be sure it has enough oomph to get to "the good stuff" in any situation that might arise. I don't want to carry FMJ, though, because I've seen it go clean through a person and seriously injure another. I feel that decent hollow points should be moving pretty slow after exiting a body (if they do), so I feel they should be unlikely to do serious damage to anyone behind (although Rule #4 still applies: "Know your target and what is beyond it").
DDGator, interesting - the American Handgunner article from last year quotes Karl discussing the pre-9x19 .380 prototype . . . but the .45 sure sounds likely. Low pressure round . . . .
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Erich - mega thanks for the lengthy reply - much appreciate your trouble.
I guess it pretty much supports what I know and think. Always tho much more useful hearing info ''from horses mouth'' so to speak, because so much that is written seems either dreamed up or mere speculation.
Needless to say as goes I hope for most of us - I hope fervently to never have to put this stuff to the acid test myself :)
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Guys, Thanks for all the info. For my money, I prefer the .45acp. It was designed to put people DOWN. However, because of the sometimes problem of carrying a larger piece;enter the Rohrbaugh R9 in 9mm. The 9mm with a good bullet should do the job. In my mind it is a minium caliber. But much better than .25acp, .32acp, .380acp. and even the .38 special. Thats why I chose the R9.
Tom
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Maybe you'll be in luck come February, Tom! ;) A .45 Rohrbaugh the size of a Kel-Tec P11 . . . I could see it! :D
P9SCarry, "the horse's" . . . something, anyway! ;D You know, I regret that I didn't photocopy the OMI reports and testimony in all these cases (although that would be one huge mound of dead trees at this point), so I can't really give anything other than my sort of feeling based on the cases I remember. It's still a really limited number of cases, so I'm not sure how valid it is as a basis for any conclusions - I just thought it might be of interest after you asked. It's changed my behavior, but this is just what I've seen and what I think because of it.
Oh, and Tom . . . I've had a couple of cases in which it was testified that an OMI doc can't tell the difference between the wound channels left by a 9mm and a .45. A .40, either. Just FWIW.
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Sounds like the moral of the story is keep shooting until you're out of bullets unless theres a duel threat which you need the other half a mag for. ??? ::) ;D
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Is it Gabe Suarez who says, "Shoot them to the ground"?
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The reality is pull the trigger until it quits making noise!
Tom
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Is it Gabe Suarez who says, "Shoot them to the ground"?
Right.
http://www.pointshooting.com/move.htm
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>>Earlier this year when I visited Eric on Long Island he told me his personal interest in the next Rohrbaugh would be a full sized, hi cap 9mm R9-type gun. On the other hand, brother Karl who runs the show, has the interest in a .45 version. I too have shot the .380 Rohrbaugh protype and must say that it is one sweet gun to use...and I suspect it will be the next one out because it's already done. I'll buy one, for sure...sight unseen. Except...I guess I've already seen it...TW<<
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It's still a really limited number of cases, so I'm not sure how valid it is as a basis for any conclusions.
It is still more direct, or real if you will, info than the majority of us have I would bet. So, it is definitely a worthy perspective. Thanks for the info and insight.
I will buy a .45 Rohrbaugh if that is what is coming. Just imagining the details of such a prospect has got me salivating. Wonder if it will be full size or more concealable or what? (if at all considering this is all speculation) Regardless it will be fun watching this unfold. When is the next shot show anyway?
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It is nice to dream and think of what new models will come down the road. However, lets not get the cart before the horse. It looks to me, that their number one priority is to get the R9s out to the dealers and public.
The Shot Show is Feb 9-12, 2006 in Vegas.
Tom
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Truth is, they showed the R-9 at several SHOT shows before it started shipping...
The R-380 (if that is one of the models) could probably start production as soon as they are ready to commit the resources. Something else made from "scratch" would be a different story.
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;D
I just talked to the factory for a while, and I know what it iiiiii-iiiisss! Well, what they will be.
But I'm not allowed to say. :-X
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C'mon Erich you cannot make a post like that and leave us all hanging ¿
If I were to guess, I'd say it would be a R9 facsimile in .45 G.A.P. !
For me... I'll just keep my little ''Ole Pup'' charged up with my favorite Federal 147gr. Hydra - Shok JHP !!
God I love this gun!!!
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BTW, Karl's first gun had more than 2500 rounds through it by his own account. So it may be meant to be carried a lot and shot a little, but shooting a couple mags through it a week will add up over time. I've had mine for well over a year and this alone has brought the shot count up.. I think this IS "shot a little" compared to others that I'll put several times that ammo through in the same time. The important points are that wear seen on some guns (mine included) is reported as normal and not impacting the guns function/relaibility. Wear is seen more on the early guns due to the barrel lug contour - newer guns have a modified contour and wear isn't seen to the same degree. When I think of this gun as a shoot-a-little gun, I think of it that way due to the puishment on my hand vs. a wear consideration. I hope that the gun can be shot a lot and not wear out...
Also, the Silvertips have been tested by R9SCarry - check out his site for the results. Brian
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Ed told me the shop "torture gun" is up to 4700 rounds.
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;D
I just talked to the factory for a while, and I know what it iiiiii-iiiisss! Well, what they will be.
But I'm not allowed to say. :-X
Well, I'm fairly certain that one of them is a .380
Just tell me if the other one is a beefed up +P 9mm or if it's another caliber AND how does the size compare to the current model.
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I want one of each. :)
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;D
I just talked to the factory for a while, and I know what it iiiiii-iiiisss! Well, what they will be.
But I'm not allowed to say. :-X
So, the entire point of this post is "I know a Secret! I know a secret!" ?????
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Jim - what Erich forgot to add was -
''Nah-nah-nah-nahna'' :D ;D
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No, Jim, it was to let everyone know that Karl had said there are two new models coming out. It was only later, when I learned what the models were, that I went into "I know a secret" mode.
:P
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As mentioned earlier, one of them HAS TO BE a .380 version. Just tell me if the other one is a slightly larger, "beefed up" version capable of handling +p 9mm ammo. If it is, I'll save my money for it. If not, I'm off to buy another Colt Pocket Nine that I see is being sold at a decent price.