Range Report part 1

[wiles]

I bought a new R-9s a couple of weeks ago and had my third visit to the range today. After my first box of ammo, I was a little concerned about reliability, but willing to feed it another hundred rounds to break it in and give it a fair chance. After my second visit to the range, I was convinced it wasn't just my grip, and even more frustrated with the reliability of the pistol. Now after my third time out I'm absolutely furious about the performance -- and a little shaken from the SLAM FIRE that scared the $&@% out of me.

So, to start at the beginning, I picked up the R-9s because reviews of the Kel-Tecs were so mixed and because I wasn't impressed enough by the Kahr PM9 to make up for the extra size. I really love the trigger on the R-9 and it seems to be a very well made pistol that nestles nicely into my hand. Of course, the proof is in the pudding, so I took it to the range.

My first time out was with a box of 100 115 grain Winchester white box FMJ. I've never had a problem feeding WWB in .45 to 1911s and figured hard ball would be the best bet for breaking in this gun since I had heard that it might be a little on the picky side. Being the cautious type, I loaded a single round into the magazine and gave it a shot. WOW! Didn't I read somewhere that the designer was an orthopedic surgeon? Trying to break a few hands to drum up business for his industry? Seriously though, I had done my research and expected the kick and really didn't mind it that much. I've got a good grip and wasn't too worried about controlling the pistol. I proceeded to run 14 6 round magazines through it, then maxed it out for 2 6+1 runs, then sent the lonely 100th bullet to catch up with his friends. I'm more used to a single action 1911, so I had to take my time to adapt to the longer trigger, but again, that was to be expected and something I definitely don't consider to be a problem for a pocket gun. When I squeezed the shots off slowly, I easily hit the IDPA target center at 7 yards. The couple of times that I tried to pick up the pace a little I often shot low and to the left -- but this again was my fault, not the gun's.

The first 3 full magazines shot without a hitch, but then the very first round in the 4th magazine failed to eject. I fed it two more good magazines, then the 5th and 6th rounds in the next magazine double fed in an interesting manner -- both were pointing straight up out of the magazine through the chamber. I worked them loose, reloaded them, and fired them off. One more failure-free magazine then another failure to feed the fourth round in the 9th full magazine. This time it was just one bullet peeking up at me through the ejection port. Four more flawless magazines then a failure in the third round of the final 6 round mag. Then, with the last two magazines, loaded all 6+1 into the gun and both times the very first round failed to eject... and the fourth round in the final full mag failed to feed. This put the tally up to 4 FTFs and 4 FTEs out of 100 rounds. 92% is definitely not great, but not horrible either considering I had been expecting some kinks in the breaking in process. Half of the problems were in the final quarter of the test, which could lead one to blame them on the expected fickleness of a hot, tight, and dirty gun.

[wiles]

I took it home and had the expected adventure of popping that pin out. It had come out nicely immediately after purchasing the gun, but now that it was dirty it was a real wrestling match. Cleaned it up and lubed it as instructed.  Was happy to find another use for my small vise-grip locking pliers in getting the spring compressed just right.  Definitely no more hassle than I'm willing to deal with.

My second trip to the range started to open my eyes a little. I had a gunsmith friend and two firearms instructors eagerly try out the Rohrbaugh. Even after I warned them about the kick and the bite and the sensitivity to limp-wristing, two of them got a FTE and the third tester got two FTEs. I was happy to know it wasn't just me. But I was quite unhappy to realize that 4 FTEs in the first 18 rounds wasn't a very good start. I'm not likely to carry a pistol with a 22% failure rate in its first three magazines. So to shorten a long story just a bit, the second box had a total of 12 failures at rounds 3, 8, 15, 16, 28, 30, 47, 49, 71, 73, 79, and 98. 7 ofthese were failures to eject and 5 were failures to feed. This time 2/3rds of the failures were in the first half of the test, so less blame can be placed on dirt.  

How many rounds does it take to break this thing in?  For a gun that's geared toward practical carry and not weekly pleasure shooting, how many rounds is too many?  Where is the line between broken in and simply broken?  At this point I was pretty disappointed, but still optimistic enough to order a couple of expensive holsters for the gun and locate some grip tape to help tame the gun some so I could attempt some more somewhat-rapid fire exercises. All this in the hopes that the gun would either straighten itself out in the third trip to the range or as a last resort it might run nicer after a trip to its maker for some tweaks.

So my third trip to the range started out nicely. I filled the chamber plus the magazine and realized in just a couple of rounds that the grip tape really does help. But then, to my surprise, I got a double burp on rounds 6 and 7. I was a little amazed -- this hadn't happened to me with any gun before. Definitely one squeeze and two bullets. After counting the holes on the target I concluded that the seventh round definitely missed the paper but probably wasn't much more than one or two feet high at seven yards. I definitely didn't shoot the ceiling or the range lights. I probably should have set the gun down then and shipped it back to Rohrbaugh, but I suppose I was still in a state of disbelief. I pulled back the slide, noted that the firing pin wasn't protruding and nothing seemed to be gummed up. I loaded only 2 rounds into a magazine, popped it into the handle, and carefully chambered a round. Nothing unusual happened so I carefully fired the first round. Nothing. Then the second. Nothing. So I got even stupider and loaded 6 rounds into a magazine and popped it in. The first 4 rounds were very carefully squeezed off with no problem, then the 5th and 6th rounds left the gun in full auto. At this point I got smart and called it a day. While a few of the crazier fellows I know would love to have a full-auto "even cooler than a Glock 18" pocket pistol, lack of control definitely isn't my style. Maybe if I aim the first round at an attacker's feet, the full-auto kick might place the 7th round square between the eyes.  Maybe not.  This has got to be fixed. When I stripped the gun at home, I noted that the pin wasn't gummed up with grease or any of the usual suspects for causing slam fire. I really didn't want to disassemble it even further to inspect the sear, so I plan to leave the gun exactly as it is, dirt and all, and ship it back for inspection. As much as it has disappointed and scared me, I really do love the craftsmanship of the gun and would still love to have one that works correctly. I've heard tales of misbehaving guns being shipped back to their builders for some TLC to be returned to their owners completely reborn.  I'm still holding out hope that I'll experience some nice customer service and end up thrilled and happy with this gun.  But if I can't get a gun that is reliable AND SAFE for $1000, my second choice would be a refund.

[Michigunner]

wiles,

Welcome to the forum.  I'm sorry that you got off to a bad start.

I've been around the board for a long time now, and see that most folks have no problems.

Unfortunately, there is a report sometimes like yours.  If it does not clear up right away, I know the factory will fix it right away.

Bill

[theirishguard]

wiles, welcome to the forum. My thoughts are this: why not try and shoot Speer Gold Dot, Federal or Winchester silver tips?
Also you shot alot of ammo in one session, which makes the gun dirty and your hand sore. The full auto part should be addressed by the factory. Send it back and it will be taken care of.
Tom

[GSlinger]

Let me start off by saying that I have had my gun now for over a year with no hicups...  I have a couple of buddies who told me about this post on the forum and couldn't resist to reply.  There were a couple of things that I read in your post that concerned me.  You mentioned putting through 3 full magazines without a hitch (will you need more than that in an emergency!!!).  Anyway you go on to talk about putting 100's of rounds through it.  This gun was just not made for that.  The tollerances are tight and the dirt and the heating up of the metals probably caused your failures which you had even mentioned yourself.  Part two:  you talk about at first the pin popping out easily but after your shoot out at the OK corral it was so dirty you had a wrestling match to get it out, again dirty gun failures not a surprise.  I'm not trying to start any fires just maybe put some out because of my success with the gun, but it sounds like you are diagnosing your own problem.  Call the factory ... I have had some questions and ordered accessories and as you say expierienced some nice customer service.  I was even lucky enough to talk to the Man himself Mr. Rohrbaugh which by the way is not a ortho surgeon.  He is a straight up guy which is why I say give them a call.....  As the guard said sorry you got off to such a bad start...

[wiles]

I've gotten quite a few e-mails regarding this post, so instead of updating each of you individually, I figured it's time to send in a report.

Life got a little busy for a couple of weeks so it took me a while to call it in and box it up, but the pistol is now at the factory and I'm awaiting word on their diagnosis.  Service over the phone was very nice and left me with a positive first impression.

I'd like to thank all of you for your concern and well wishes.  I'll update this post when the issue gets resolved.

To address the follow-up posts:

1) ammo:  Yes!  I will definitely try feeding the pistol self-defense rounds!  I would never want to inadvertently harm a bystander with over-penetrating ammo.  Hardball is only for the range.  There are lots of good posts here about the best defense rounds to use, and I'll likely test feed several of them before choosing one to carry.  But I have to be confident in a pistol before I choose to carry it.  I've always used hardball for breaking in a new gun -- it usually feeds the best -- only after adequately breaking a pistol in do I start testing the hollow points.  If I'm completely mistaken in the case of breaking in the Rohrbaugh, somebody please post me upside the head with a clue-by-four.  Otherwise, I'll stick to my old habits that have worked best for me.  :-)

2) dirt:  Yes!  Right again!  If I ever need a fourth magazine to protect myself and my family then I've got an invading army chasing after me and I'll need prayer more than a working firearm.  I concede that every FTF and FTE after the first 18 rounds is not a fair test of a realistic scenario.  On my first trip to the range with a cold and clean R-9s, my first three magazines fed smoothly.  On my second trip to the range with a cold and clean pistol, there were 4 FTEs in the first three magazines.  On my third test with a cold and clean gun, it malfunctioned in the very first magazine in a manner far worse than a simple FTE.  Any notes I made about failures after the gun was obviously dirty were simple matters of observation.  I believe I did a good job of explaining that these were excusable.  But not all of the failures I saw can be attributed to dirt.

3) dirt again:  Yes!  It was more difficult to disassemble after it had been used.  I simply stated this as an observation.  Since I had read hundreds of posts about the gun before buying it, I expected this and did not mind.

4) orthopedic surgeons:  Yes!  I believe you that Mr. Rohrbaugh is not a surgeon.  I don't recall exactly at this point, but maybe I read somewhere that ONE of the designers was an orthopedic surgeon?  Maybe it was his VP of Marketing?  Maybe he didn't contribute to the design of the gun.  If it matters, I apologize, but it was only a question.  Besides, the question I asked was only intended to be a little bit of humor in an otherwise sad post.

5) putting out fires:  My post was an attempt to present an objective report of my first visits to the range with my new gun.  This was solely for the purpose of giving back to the community of current and future owners.  I'm in no way trying to insult the gun or its makers or the other owners of the gun.  In fact, the Rohrbaugh owners on this forum have been tremendously supportive.  It was this community that made me decide to go with a Rohrbaugh instead of a Kel-Tec, Seecamp, Kahr, Tomcat, Pony, or Guardian.  And despite my first experiences, I don't regret that decision yet.  I haven't ruled out all possibility of repair and I haven't given up on the pistol yet.  There are over a thousand of these pistols out there, right?  And the majority of their owners would stake their lives on them, right?  I just want to be part of that community of people who are confident in what they have in their pocket.  There is no need to rush to Rohrbaugh's defense because this isn't that kind of post.

[theirishguard]

Wiles, thanks for your lengthy range report. It was well written. I hope and am sure your problems will be taken care by Rohrbaugh. Also welcome to the forum.
Tom

[R9SCarry]

Wiles - shucks, talk about belated but hey - welcome to the board  I had meant to write ages ago but then it slipped my mind.  

Thx for your writing - very detailed and pretty darned objective - and can't fault that.  I'll be interested to hear of the results from the gun's return - any explanations and any changes etc.  The 'orthopod' IIRC is Ed, a valued member of the team.  

GSlinger - thx too for your addition and a welcome also due to you

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One thing I meant to post, somewhere.  I quizzed Eric during a phone chat not so long ago - asking him for some definitive ''from the horse's mouth'' quote to try and explain to folks why this is such a costly gun.  Many ask this question.

Well - I know myself of all the immense costs involved with machinery, in fact overall capital investment - it is mind blowing.  Then costs on materials etc too and bottom line - these guys are in business also to earn a crust!!!

Anyway's Erics answer was in fact not only elegantly simple but probably the best. ''This is a custom gun''!!!

True enough - it is hand assembled and tuned and tested - and when viewed this way, hey, forget its diminutive size - just remember all the custom 1911's out there for big bucks - some of which also do not perform flawlessly for all folks all the time.

No gun maker will intentionally I am sure, wish to let something out the door with problems but - thorobreds with tight tolerances can indeed still present their problems now and again.  I cringe when anyone posts that they have problems - because I feel for them - plus I, like so many have seemingly got an R9 (2 actually) that does everything I want and expect.

[theirishguard]

Chris, thanks for your thoughts.
Tom

[Richard S]

I second the comments of Chris and Tom.

[glioma]

I just returned from the range with a brand new R9s. I fired about 15 rounds with a 50% failure to fire rate. Then after firing a round, the round was not ejected. I removed the magazine. The slide will not move back to eject the expended round. I guess this will require a factory visit as I don't know how to clear the expended round without damaging the R9s.

[R9SCarry]

Glioma - welcome

I am not happy to hear of your first range visit tho - that is not good.  Wondering what the ammo was.

To have the lock-up condition now tho is odd indeed and I am wondering if just perhaps there is some issue with the extractor.

Guns are always test fired before they go out so, this is right now something of a mystery - it's not a minor problem but a major one and so I shall be more than keen to know what is what and yes, regrettably does sound like it will have to go back to be looked at.

[Calvin Cooledge]

I bought a new R-9s a couple of weeks ago and had my third visit to the range today. After my first box of ammo, I was a little concerned about reliability, but willing to feed it another hundred rounds to break it in and give it a fair chance...

Hi Wiles,
We all welcome you to the forum. Your post was very well written; lucid, controlled, and easy to understand. Just the kind of people we like here;^)

I too had a few problems with my early R9, but a combination of a trip back to the factory, and my improved grip purchase, I have had NO pro blem with my R9S since. I too had a worried look about me, not so much about the money, but I really really wanted this gun to work! I didn't want my money back.  I got to know the Brothers R at the SHOT Show last year (2005) and they are just superb individuals. Believe me, NO manufacturer wants to ever see their product again, in terms of returned merchandise for repair or replacement. BUT, the reality of business dictates certain laws of economic, ie, test firing hundreds of rounds through your gun to assure absolute reliability. That said, only a few rounds can be fired as tests, then the gun has to be cleaned again before shipping. Well, the enormity of the process is staggering. So, what do I do when I encounter a problem? I let the maker fix it.

The factory made my R9S right, and it's totally reliable. I can and do stake my life on it. There are no sure things in life, but one thing is sure, I'd rather have my R9S with me than not...

More on that in the next post...

Steve
(Really, I'm so glad you joined our club. Do not be deterred. You will be happy. Trust me...;^)

[glioma]

Glioma - welcome

I am not happy to hear of your first range visit tho - that is not good.  Wondering what the ammo was.

To have the lock-up condition now tho is odd indeed and I am wondering if just perhaps there is some issue with the extractor.

Guns are always test fired before they go out so, this is right now something of a mystery - it's not a minor problem but a major one and so I shall be more than keen to know what is what and yes, regrettably does sound like it will have to go back to be looked at.

Thank you for your comments. The ammo was Sellier & Bellot 115GR, Full Metal Jacket, 9 mm Luger.

[sslater]

Glioma,
Welcome to the forum.  Sorry to hear of your early troubles.

FTF ISSUE:
Your 50% FTF rate is obviously unacceptable.  I'd make sure to use either Speer GDHP 115 or 124 grain ammo or Winchester Silver Tips for the rest of the break-in period (maybe 100 rounds.) These R9's are fitted very tightly and are somewhat ammo-sensitive.  They also require a firm grip - not a Vulcan death pinch - but a good solid hold.  

JAMMED SLIDE:
I reported a jam-up several months ago (as did Erich - another senior forum member).  My gun was well broken in with about 400 rounds thru it.  I had fired one magazine of GDHP's  with no problem.  Dropped out the empty, inserted a fresh mag, and found the slide jammed tight.  The range I patronize gets nervous about shooters fiddling with firearms on the line.  So I packed it up, took it home, made sure there was nothing in the chamber, and gave the slide a very hearty shove.  It came loose.  On disassembly, I found a tiny sliver of metal lying in the grease on the frame rail.  Erich reported the same thing with his R9.
I think the sliver was cartridge case plating material.  It wasn't aluminum and wasn't steel.
Anyway, if you don't feel comfortable "brute forcing"  your brand new gun, the factory will make good on it.  There's just the hassle of shipping it off