The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: MikeInTexas on September 14, 2017, 03:33:24 PM
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Pretty sure this new documentary on PBS will interest some of you.
http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/home/
The 10 part series premiers this Sunday, Sept. 17 at 8/7c on your local PBS station.
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A tough time for many of us and our country and the world. Should be an interesting view.
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He USUALLY does pretty good job of research whatever he does but tends to lean a bit to the left.
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He USUALLY does pretty good job of research whatever he does but tends to lean a bit to the left.
Yeah I agree Kevin. Pretty sure he will use footage and stories that makes a lot of folks uncomfortable (probably more than necessary to push a biased view).
I just hope it is not as revisionist as we are experiencing in our society today regarding other times in our history.
My feelings will go out to those that served and see this, I know many are still deeply haunted by their experiences. Dredging up this king of thing can bring past issues to the present that have been successfully suppressed for years.
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For PBS it has, so far, been pretty factual and non bias.
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I am good with what I have seen so far.Tonight's the episode that I was there.1967-1968.
It haunts me along with i am sure others but still need to watch.Go figure.
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tracker
I was watching the jets flying off carriers last night. I do not know your age so I was wondering when you served and if you were there?
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Yes, I flew in the combat zone off the USS Hornet, CVS-12, in 1965-66. We did coastal surveillance and lost one aircraft and crew, probably due to hostile fire. I transitioned to the A-4 Skyhawk in late '66 and made a Med Cruise on the USS Saratoga, CVA-60, flying the A-4 in 1967. I resigned my commission and left the Navy in June of 1968. Needless to say, I lost a lot of outstanding close friends, and exceptional pilots all the way to 1973. It has been said that one of the most dangerous occupations in the world in 1967 was a Navy carrier-based A-4 pilot flying over North Vietnam. In my 7 year career I made 300 carrier landings, 100 at night. I will be watching tonight.
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That is what I thought I remembered from a post Richard had years ago.
I read one time, and it may have been you, when a carrier pilot was asked what was the most frightening moment of his career he answered,
" My first night time landing on the carrier."
I am finding the series quite interesting. I really did not remember the history that the first two parts told, part 4 is what where I start remembering the facts.
I guess it starts up Sunday night again.
Added later:
One thing I find interesting is the enemy body count. I remember the news casters always giving the number of Americans killed in action and the number of enemy casualties, but I do not remember that as the gauge of success of the war.
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The first night landing is indeed scary but after that thrill night catapult shots are even more frightening. The reason is that there is only a split second to make an eject decision if it is a cold cat shot. Not to diminish Ken Burns' series but he doesn't devote much of it to the air war. For example, there were over 100 planes and pilots lost trying to take out the Thanh Hoa bridge with bombs. It stood there until 1973 when it was brought down with a laser guided bomb, which is very common now. Today, that bridge is back and functioning better than ever. It reminds me of the comment made last night about Hill 875; no one has been to that hill since the useless fierce battle where so many men were killed.
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The first night landing is indeed scary but after that thrill night catapult shots are even more frightening. The reason is that there is only a split second to make an eject decision if it is a cold cat shot. Not to diminish Ken Burns' series but he doesn't devote much of it to the air war. For example, there were over 100 planes and pilots lost trying to take out the Thanh Hoa bridge with bombs. It stood there until 1973 when it was brought down with a laser guided bomb, which is very common now. Today, that bridge is back and functioning better than ever. It reminds me of the comment made last night about Hill 185; no one has been to that hill since the useless fierce battle where so many men were killed.
That is truly amazing!
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I really did not remember the history that the first two parts told, part 4 is what where I start remembering the facts.
I guess it starts up Sunday night again.
Added later:
One thing I find interesting is the enemy body count. I remember the news casters always giving the number of Americans killed in action and the number of enemy casualties, but I do not remember that as the gauge of success of the war.
For those of you that know the history raised in the first few episodes, when did you learn it? Was it during the war or after?
If you were deployed to Viet Nam, how much of this did you get before or during your time there?
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Most of the background and history was not learned until much later except for the French involvement and defeat in the 1950s. I didn't receive any of this history before because my first cruise to Westpac was in 1963-64 and little was known except that we had "advisors" there. Certainly, the deliberations and decisions made at the highest level were not known to me until years after. For example, the recommendation of George Ball and later Robert McNamara to leave Vietnam were not known to the public at the time. Also, the admission of JFK that he made a mistake by allowing an under secretary of state to draft and issue a major policy shift on the South Vietnam hierarchy while he was on vacation in Hyannisport was not known to me at least until this series. I was only aware after the war that a presidential council appointed by LBJ advised him to leave Vietnam and he rejected it. I was particularly interested in the history in the '60s of the various steps that put us in the position where we couldn't stay and wouldn't leave. That is the real lesson for the future: always have an exit strategy before boots are on the ground.
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Mike,
I knew absolutely nothing about that country,except,it was a bad thing to get orders to go there,it was nothing but jungle,and they shoot at you.That's all that I knew when I was out at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in February 1967 for my AIT.(Just more training)
Well,I did get orders along with some others.We were then,those of us with orders to Vietnam,were given some extra training and a couple of real bullshit classes about the culture.However,what I distinctly remember is going over in a bus to Fort Dix,New Jersey to become familiar with the M16. Truly,when we were each given one for the day,our first impression was,this is a model of the real thing, because it's plastic.
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Most of the background and history was not learned until much later except for the French involvement and defeat in the 1950s. I didn't receive any of this history before because my first cruise to Westpac was in 1963-64 and little was known except that we had "advisors" there. Certainly, the deliberations and decisions made at the highest level were not known to me until years after. For example, the recommendation of George Ball and later Robert McNamara to leave Vietnam were not known to the public at the time. Also, the admission of JFK that he made a mistake by allowing an under secretary of state to draft and issue a major policy shift on the South Vietnam hierarchy while he was on vacation in Hyannisport was not known to me at least until this series. I was only aware after the war that a presidential council appointed by LBJ advised him to leave Vietnam and he rejected it. I was particularly interested in the history in the '60s of the various steps that put us in the position where we couldn't stay and wouldn't leave. That is the real lesson for the future: always have an exit strategy before boots are on the ground.
I really question this, Sounds like JFK is shifting some blame for something he knew about and knew was wrong.
The trouble here is as Napoleon said,
" The whole battle plan gets thrown out the window shortly after the first bullet is fired."
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He took the blame for it later. A lot of this history that has come to light recently was classified for many years.
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Well PBS FINALLY got to it as I KNEW they would. I wasn't everywhere, nor saw everything BUT the crap about shooting unarmed civilians and rape is taking that old stereotype out, dusting it off, and calling it facts.
In the 2 years I was in I Corp, along the 'Dead Marine Zone' we went from Qua Viet, a village on the coast, to Khe Sanh next to Laos. I never saw, nor even heard of that happening. We were told on the FIRST DAY in Country that either would get us 25 to life in Fort Leavenworth. Even mutilating bodies would get you a Court Martial.
I am sure they saved the 'best mud' for Fridays program.
p.s. There was a case on operation Main Crag where a Marine unit fought for 3 days to take a hill, with many killed and wounded, Once the battle was over they sent a Army unit to replace them AFTER the fighting was over. A few grunts even fired on the choppers. I BELIEVE it was 1/9, 'The Walking Dead.'
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Jason Daley
SMITHSONIAN.COM
JANUARY 2, 2017
3.1K31023.5K
"In October 1968, during the Paris Peace Talks, the U.S. was ready to agree to cease bombing Hanoi, the capital of North Vietnam, in exchange for concessions that would halt the decades-long conflict which eventually killed an estmiated 58,000 American soldiers, 2 million Vietnamese civilians and 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong combatants. But suddenly, the day before the 1968 presidential election, a close race between Hubert Humphrey and Richard Nixon, South Vietnam inexplicably walked away from the negotiating table. Direct U.S. military involvement in the war lasted another five years.
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For decades, rumors have swirled that Richard Nixon’s presidential campaign had interfered in the Vietnam peace negotiations by sending a messages through Nixon aide Anna Chennault to the South Vietnamese embassy and on to President Nguyen van Thieu. The Nixon campaign, it was rumored, promised the South Vietnamese bigger concessions if they waited to negotiate peace until after Nixon was elected. The idea was to not give President Lyndon Johnson and Humphrey a PR victory by suspending the war before the election.
Now, political biographer John Farrell, writing in The New York Times' opinion section this weekend, reports that handwritten notes from Nixon’s future White House Chief of Staff, H.R. Haldeman show evidence that the 36th president tried to secretly influence the peace talks while still a presidential candidate and a private citizen.
Throughout his lifetime Nixon and his aids vociferously denied that he would do any such thing. “My God. I would never do anything to encourage” South Vietnam “not to come to the table,” Nixon is heard telling Johnson in a conversation taped in the White House, reports Farrell.
But over the years, more information about the incident leaked out. According to David Taylor at the BBC, in 2013 declassified tapes from Johnson’s White House show that the FBI had intercepted Chennault’s calls to the South Vietnamese ambassador telling them to “just hang through the election.” Johnson also ordered the FBI to surveil the Nixon campaign and to figure out if Nixon was personally involved in the back channel operation.
Taylor reports that Johnson became convinced that Nixon knew about the ploy and even sent the candidate a message through Senator Everett Dirksen telling him to back down and that he was engaging in treason.
Though the Johnson administration debated going public with the information before the election, they decided against it because they lacked “absolute proof” that Nixon was personally involved, writes Farrell. Taylor reports they were also afraid of revealing that the FBI was intercepting calls from the South Vietnamese ambassador and Chennault, a U.S. citizen, and that NSA was also monitoring communications.
The handwritten notes from Haldeman, however, seem to corroborate the idea that Nixon knew about the plan and personally ordered Chennault to communicate with South Vietnam. The notes were taken by Haldeman on October 22, 1968, during a phone conversation with Nixon. The include Nixon’s orders to “Keep Anna Chennault working on” South Vietnam, and also say: “Any other way to monkey wrench it? Anything RN [Richard Nixon] can do.” The notes also show Nixon wanted to have nationalist Chinese businessman Louis Kung also pressure president Thieu not to accept a truce. The notes indicate Nixon wanted his running mate Spiro Agnew to pressure C.I.A. director Richard Helms and that they campaign sought to get Taiwanese president Chiang Kai-Shek involved.
Farrell reports that the notes have actually been available since the Nixon Presidential Library release them in 2007. But Farrell only realized the content of the handwritten notes about what has become known as The Chennault Affair while researching a new biography of Nixon.
While it’s likely that the revelation of Nixon’s involvement might have influenced the outcome of the 1968 American election, Jack Torry reports for Politico that the Paris Peace Talks were likely on the ropes before November 1968, and that the North Vietnamese were not serious about ending the way. Transcripts from the time show that South Vietnamese President Thieu was not willing to participate in talks that included the National Liberation Front, the communist party trying to overthrow the South Vietnam government."
This story about Nixon using Anna Chenault to convince the South Vietnamese to abandon the peace talks in 1968 so that Nixon could get credit for ending the war after the election is the one that really grabs me.
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Wow Kevin, I find it harder to believe that US forces would intentionally fire upon other US forces over that than the well documented claims of the other stuff you seem to deny. Even a presidential candidate talked about his killing innocent civilians and how common it was.
Personally I was not there, my time in the infantry came later, but I have talked to many Viet Nam vets (served under a few), and seen pictures of the ears, etc. and believe it happened and was not just isolated to one or two instances. Spent a lot of time in my youth camping with a veteran and hearing the stories of his three tours in the Army to not give some credence to it. We even talked about it some more when I returned home in 93-94, got deeper access to personal items and stories then than I did before as a teenager. Little did I know that we talked about in the 70's was moderated by the fact that others were around hearing what was said.
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Also, in 1970 the army reported 209 cases of fragging which seemed to increase during Vietnam compared to other wars. On the subject of killing civilians who can forget the Massacre at My Lai? Maybe by late 1968 word had spread that it wasn't a very nice thing to do.
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Also, in 1970 the army reported 209 cases of fragging which seemed to increase during Vietnam compared to other wars. On the subject of killing civilians who can forget the Massacre at My Lai? Maybe by late 1968 word had spread that it wasn't a very nice thing to do.
Fragging was VERY common if you had a officer who thought nothing about sending troops into stupid situations while he hid in the rear area.
As to My Lai that was the responsibility of that 90 day wonder Lt. Calley who ENCOURAGED it to happen. I believe the discipline level was a bit different in the Marines and the Army. The Army were mostly those drafted, the Marines were enlisted.
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The USMC is always looking for a few good men. Except in cases like My Lai the U.S. Army has also served this country with courage, honor, and distinction for a long time since 1776. Keep in mind that there was a high demand and low supply for Army draftees during the Vietnam War.
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I've met former Lt. Calley. He was working at a jewelry store in Columbus GA when I was stationed at Ft. Benning. Seemed very unassuming and not the evil man many have him accused of being.
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No doubt that he has had his comeuppance. How did you recognize him or was it obvious? Also, kudos to you, Mike, for serving our country when you didn't have to do it. I went into the Navy because I had to do something with a mandatory draft. At the time I had no clue that it would lead to aviation and change my life dramatically.
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Well PBS FINALLY got to it as I KNEW they would. I wasn't everywhere, nor saw everything BUT the crap about shooting unarmed civilians and rape is taking that old stereotype out, dusting it off, and calling it facts.
In the 2 years I was in I Corp, along the 'Dead Marine Zone' we went from Qua Viet, a village on the coast, to Khe Sanh next to Laos. I never saw, nor even heard of that happening. We were told on the FIRST DAY in Country that either would get us 25 to life in Fort Leavenworth. Even mutilating bodies would get you a Court Martial.
I am sure they saved the 'best mud' for Fridays program.
p.s. There was a case on operation Main Crag where a Marine unit fought for 3 days to take a hill, with many killed and wounded, Once the battle was over they sent a Army unit to replace them AFTER the fighting was over. A few grunts even fired on the choppers. I BELIEVE it was 1/9, 'The Walking Dead.'
Well as I said they would PBS FINALLY showed it's stripes on Friday.
As to the Latinos/Indians we had VERY high number in the Marines. They were also the bravest group ANY race. I would rather go not combat with them than whites or blacks, I am white. For them it just wasn't their job, their actions reflected on the entire Latin/Indian community. Whites and blacks didn't feel this way.
It was a crazy 2 years. Yes I still carry scars inside and out and wake up EVERY SINGLE NIGHT and move to a different spot in my home to finish sleeping.
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Boy,lot to digest here.
I do remember fragging,and I do remember a lot of warnings about behaving.
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Fragging was a way for the enlisted men to remind the officers that there would be pay back for using their lives as stepping stones to their next bar.
We had a officer transferred in from another unit who was 'warned' with a grenade, with the pin still in it, in his rack. He got a BIG attitude change over that. Still kind of a 'I am a officer and you are just NCO's, ' attitude but developed a new outlook.
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"War Is Hell"
William T. Sherman
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"War Is Hell"
William T. Sherman
"The only ones who will never see war are the dead. " Plato
2500 years ago people knew war was a terrible thing, BUT with politicians and the money that war brings to a economy it will NEVER end.
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As I heard many times from military career aspirants: "It's a dirty war but it's the only one we have." In 1953 the French people also called it, "La Sale Guerre." We didn't heed their warning and example of Dien Bien Phu.
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tracker, I got lucky.
A NCO I worked with knew of him, so I found an excuse (IIRC watch battery) to go into the store. I'm a history buff (my minor in college) and just wanted to meet him. He did not have a clue I was in there for something other than a regular customer. Of course he looked a lot more like his service pictures then. No internet to search these things out, just books and stuff from the library. Long time ago :)
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Thanks; good story.