Author Topic: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.  (Read 9233 times)

Offline tracker

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2017, 02:45:14 PM »
He took the blame for it later. A lot of this history that has come to light recently was classified for many years.

Offline kevinqjhps

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2017, 02:54:46 PM »
Well PBS FINALLY got to it as I KNEW they would. I wasn't everywhere, nor saw everything BUT the crap about shooting unarmed civilians and rape is taking that old stereotype out, dusting it off, and calling it facts.

In the 2 years I  was in I Corp, along the 'Dead Marine Zone' we went from Qua Viet, a village on the coast, to Khe Sanh next to Laos. I never saw, nor even heard of that happening. We were told on the FIRST DAY in Country that either would get us 25 to life in Fort Leavenworth. Even mutilating bodies would get you a Court Martial.

I am sure they saved the 'best mud' for Fridays program.


p.s. There was a case on operation Main Crag where a Marine unit fought for 3 days to take a hill, with many killed and wounded, Once the battle was over they sent a Army unit to replace them AFTER the fighting was over. A few grunts even fired on the choppers. I BELIEVE it was 1/9, 'The Walking Dead.'
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 03:00:01 PM by kevinqjhps »
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Offline tracker

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2017, 02:57:51 PM »
Jason Daley
SMITHSONIAN.COM
JANUARY 2, 2017
3.1K31023.5K
"In October 1968, during the Paris Peace Talks, the U.S. was ready to agree to cease bombing Hanoi, the capital of North Vietnam, in exchange for concessions that would halt the decades-long conflict which eventually killed an estmiated 58,000 American soldiers, 2 million Vietnamese civilians and 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong combatants. But suddenly, the day before the 1968 presidential election, a close race between Hubert Humphrey and Richard Nixon, South Vietnam inexplicably walked away from the negotiating table. Direct U.S. military involvement in the war lasted another five years.

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For decades, rumors have swirled that Richard Nixon’s presidential campaign had interfered in the Vietnam peace negotiations by sending a messages through Nixon aide Anna Chennault to the South Vietnamese embassy and on to President Nguyen van Thieu. The Nixon campaign, it was rumored, promised the South Vietnamese bigger concessions if they waited to negotiate peace until after Nixon was elected. The idea was to not give President Lyndon Johnson and Humphrey a PR victory by suspending the war before the election.

Now, political biographer John Farrell, writing in The New York Times' opinion section this weekend, reports that handwritten notes from Nixon’s future White House Chief of Staff, H.R. Haldeman show evidence that the 36th president tried to secretly influence the peace talks while still a presidential candidate and a private citizen.

Throughout his lifetime Nixon and his aids vociferously denied that he would do any such thing. “My God. I would never do anything to encourage” South Vietnam “not to come to the table,” Nixon is heard telling Johnson in a conversation taped in the White House, reports Farrell.



But over the years, more information about the incident leaked out. According to David Taylor at the BBC, in 2013 declassified tapes from Johnson’s White House show that the FBI had intercepted Chennault’s calls to the South Vietnamese ambassador telling them to “just hang through the election.” Johnson also ordered the FBI to surveil the Nixon campaign and to figure out if Nixon was personally involved in the back channel operation.

Taylor reports that Johnson became convinced that Nixon knew about the ploy and even sent the candidate a message through Senator Everett Dirksen telling him to back down and that he was engaging in treason.

Though the Johnson administration debated going public with the information before the election, they decided against it because they lacked “absolute proof” that Nixon was personally involved, writes Farrell. Taylor reports they were also afraid of revealing that the FBI was intercepting calls from the South Vietnamese ambassador and Chennault, a U.S. citizen, and that NSA was also monitoring communications.

The handwritten notes from Haldeman, however, seem to corroborate the idea that Nixon knew about the plan and personally ordered Chennault to communicate with South Vietnam. The notes were taken by Haldeman on October 22, 1968, during a phone conversation with Nixon. The include Nixon’s orders to “Keep Anna Chennault working on” South Vietnam, and also say: “Any other way to monkey wrench it? Anything RN [Richard Nixon] can do.” The notes also show Nixon wanted to have nationalist Chinese businessman Louis Kung also pressure president Thieu not to accept a truce. The notes indicate Nixon wanted his running mate Spiro Agnew to pressure C.I.A. director Richard Helms and that they campaign sought to get Taiwanese president Chiang Kai-Shek involved.

Farrell reports that the notes have actually been available since the Nixon Presidential Library release them in 2007. But Farrell only realized the content of the handwritten notes about what has become known as The Chennault Affair while researching a new biography of Nixon.

While it’s likely that the revelation of Nixon’s involvement might have influenced the outcome of the 1968 American election, Jack Torry reports for Politico that the Paris Peace Talks were likely on the ropes before November 1968, and that the North Vietnamese were not serious about ending the way. Transcripts from the time show that South Vietnamese President Thieu was not willing to participate in talks that included the National Liberation Front, the communist party trying to overthrow the South Vietnam government."

This story about Nixon using Anna Chenault to convince the South Vietnamese to abandon the peace talks in 1968 so that Nixon could get credit for ending the war after the election is the one that really grabs me.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 03:28:41 PM by tracker »

Offline MikeInTexas

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2017, 04:42:19 PM »
Wow Kevin, I find it harder to believe that US forces would intentionally fire upon other US forces over that than the well documented claims of the other stuff you seem to deny.  Even a presidential candidate talked about his killing innocent civilians and how common it was.

Personally I was not there, my time in the infantry came later, but I have talked to many Viet Nam vets (served under a few), and seen pictures of the ears, etc. and believe it happened and was not just isolated to one or two instances.  Spent a lot of time in my youth camping with a veteran and hearing the stories of his three tours in the Army to not give some credence to it.  We even talked about it some more when I returned home in 93-94, got deeper access to personal items and stories then than I did before as a teenager.  Little did I know that we talked about in the 70's was moderated by the fact that others were around hearing what was said.

Offline tracker

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2017, 04:57:33 PM »
Also, in 1970 the army reported 209 cases of fragging which seemed to increase during Vietnam compared to other wars. On the subject of killing civilians who can forget the Massacre at My Lai? Maybe by late 1968 word had spread that it wasn't a very nice thing to do.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 05:09:42 PM by tracker »

Offline kevinqjhps

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2017, 06:15:31 PM »
Also, in 1970 the army reported 209 cases of fragging which seemed to increase during Vietnam compared to other wars. On the subject of killing civilians who can forget the Massacre at My Lai? Maybe by late 1968 word had spread that it wasn't a very nice thing to do.




Fragging was VERY common if you had a officer who thought nothing about sending troops into stupid situations while he hid in the rear area.

As to My Lai that was the responsibility of that 90 day wonder Lt. Calley who ENCOURAGED it to happen. I believe the discipline level was a bit different in the  Marines and the Army.  The Army were mostly those drafted, the Marines were enlisted.
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Offline tracker

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2017, 06:33:26 PM »
The USMC is always looking for a few good men. Except in cases like My Lai the U.S. Army has also served this country with courage, honor, and distinction for a long time since 1776. Keep in mind that there was a high demand and low supply for Army draftees during the Vietnam War.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 06:56:34 PM by tracker »

Offline MikeInTexas

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2017, 08:02:37 PM »
I've met former Lt. Calley.  He was working at a jewelry store in Columbus GA when I was stationed at Ft. Benning.  Seemed very unassuming and not the evil man many have him accused of being.

.

Offline tracker

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2017, 08:41:47 PM »
No doubt that he has had his comeuppance. How did you recognize him or was it obvious? Also, kudos to you, Mike, for serving our country when you didn't have to do it. I went into the Navy because I had to do something with a mandatory draft. At the time I had no clue that it would lead to aviation and change my life dramatically.

Offline kevinqjhps

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2017, 08:06:13 AM »
Well PBS FINALLY got to it as I KNEW they would. I wasn't everywhere, nor saw everything BUT the crap about shooting unarmed civilians and rape is taking that old stereotype out, dusting it off, and calling it facts.

In the 2 years I  was in I Corp, along the 'Dead Marine Zone' we went from Qua Viet, a village on the coast, to Khe Sanh next to Laos. I never saw, nor even heard of that happening. We were told on the FIRST DAY in Country that either would get us 25 to life in Fort Leavenworth. Even mutilating bodies would get you a Court Martial.

I am sure they saved the 'best mud' for Fridays program.


p.s. There was a case on operation Main Crag where a Marine unit fought for 3 days to take a hill, with many killed and wounded, Once the battle was over they sent a Army unit to replace them AFTER the fighting was over. A few grunts even fired on the choppers. I BELIEVE it was 1/9, 'The Walking Dead.'



Well as I said they would PBS FINALLY showed it's stripes on Friday.


As to the Latinos/Indians we had VERY high number in the Marines. They were also the bravest group ANY race. I would rather go not combat with them than whites or blacks, I am white. For them it just wasn't their job, their actions reflected on the entire Latin/Indian community. Whites and blacks didn't feel this way.

It was a crazy 2 years. Yes I still carry scars inside and out and wake up EVERY SINGLE NIGHT and move to a different spot in my home to finish sleeping.
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Offline johnny

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2017, 08:24:50 AM »
  Boy,lot to digest here.
   I do remember fragging,and I do remember a lot of warnings about behaving.

Offline kevinqjhps

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2017, 11:03:27 AM »
Fragging was a way for the enlisted men to remind the officers that there would be pay back for using their lives as stepping stones to their next bar.

We had a officer transferred in from another unit who was 'warned' with a grenade, with the pin still in it, in his rack. He got a BIG attitude change over that. Still kind of a 'I am a officer and you are just NCO's, ' attitude but developed a new outlook. 
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Offline tracker

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2017, 12:18:10 PM »
"War Is Hell"
William T. Sherman

Offline kevinqjhps

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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2017, 04:27:00 PM »
"War Is Hell"
William T. Sherman


"The only ones who will never see war are the dead. " Plato

2500 years ago people knew war was a terrible thing, BUT with politicians and the money that war brings to a economy  it will NEVER end.
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Re: FYI: Ken Burns' The Vietnam War starts Sunday.
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2017, 04:31:54 PM »
As I heard many times from military career aspirants: "It's a dirty war but it's the only one we have." In 1953 the French people also called it, "La Sale Guerre." We didn't heed their warning and example of Dien Bien Phu.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 06:21:30 PM by tracker »