Author Topic: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It Here  (Read 50708 times)

Offline dmobrien2001

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2004, 01:43:32 PM »
Quote
At least they are both high quality, reasonable options as pocket guns, while the Kahr is too big IMO for say shorts or summer clothes pockets.
 

Let me disagree with you here.  PM9 is a good shorts gun. The R9 will be even better.


- Dan

Offline RJ HEDLEY

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2004, 02:26:55 PM »
Tcat
 You raised a flag with me on your first post.   What is your point?  Why are you here?

I can't get worked up over the fact that you don't like the R-9, nor the hundreds of words you have typed here to prove the other members wrong.

 Could this be your purpose?  You remind me of a dude named "Bandit"...

RJ=


 
 

Offline Stook

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2004, 05:31:28 PM »
A tip of the hat to RJ - well said and to the point.

Sorry, Duane, I don't have a Ferrari but my little Honda requires premium.  I don't complain or consider that a fault, I knew that when I bought it.  The many pluses a 240HP 4 cyl 2 liter engine just make it worth it.  Just like the Rohrbaugh, performance comes at a price, both in the purchase price and in the maintenance (ammunition or gas, its all the same).  Great comparison, Duane!!

Not maybe, not probably, but definitely the R9 is not for everyone.  That point has been made clear, both here and from the factory.  I haven't seen anything that says otherwise.  Haven't received the twins yet, but I also haven't seen anything that makes me sorry I nave guns on order, nor that makes me want to cancel the order.  But the things that make it right for me may be distasteful to someone else.  That's what capitalism is all about, isn't it?  Freedom to choose what particular item we want from a vast selection available.  

Nuff said on this.  Back to RJ, we really don't need someone baiting members of this group just to get a rise.  We point out the good as well as the bad, but all in an effort to help and educate our fellow owners and interested parties.  Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

PS  Eric says I still have another month before the twins arrive


Offline jimacp

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2004, 06:01:54 PM »
ahhhh.....dmobrien...good illustration! However, I have some shorts like those and a Glock 26 would fit in the pocket as well!  You have made a good point  that with the right clothes, a lot of guns are very concealable...however, I can assure you the r9 will fit in pockets the kahr won't...not knocking the kahr, but it IS  significantly larger :D
« Last Edit: October 03, 2004, 06:03:46 PM by jimacp »

Offline TW

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Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It Here
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2004, 09:31:57 PM »
RJ...

I've just read Tcat's two posts and although not jumping up and down about the R9 I didn't sense that he was trying to come across as a troll.  I gathered that in his own way he was trying to discern for himself whether the gun was for him or not.  Based on his observations I would guess it probably is NOT, but I'm not sure it warrents chasing him off with a broom.  

In Tcat's case it is unfortunate that he probably cannot find an R9 owner local to him so that he could determine firsthand for himself if ithe R9 is for him.  But then there are plenty of other folks, like me, who are willing to buy the gun sight unseen.  As everyone agrees on - the gun is not for everyone.

BTW...I took my first of two R9's to the range yesterday for a first outing.  Out of 100 shots fired with six brands of ammo I had one keyhole and two FTE - all with non-recommended bullets.  The majority of shots fired were with recommended ammo...Winchester 115 practice, Speer GD 115 & 124 - and all was well.  I knew before hand that I was in for a surprise with the R9 in regards to handling but was unprepared for it all the same.  Wowzers...!!!  At the end of the session I felt like I had shaken hands with Mohammed Ali - hand was stinging but had a BIG grin on my face...!!  The R-9 more than met my hopes and expectations, and once I am more thoroughly familiar with the piece I expect it to become my year round, 24/7 BUG.

Again, the R9 is not for everyone (Tcat?), but I am happy to say it is for me...!...TW<<

Offline RJ HEDLEY

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2004, 10:39:33 PM »
 TW
Just about every R-9 owner has posted a near shot by shot report on their experiences. Some have had no failures, some have, and reasons have been discussed. The Rohrbaugh people have demonstrated their willingness to do what ever it takes to make the pistol perfect as can be humanly expected.  
Tcat seems to want assurances that can't be foreseen, he will just have to give the Rohrbaugh a try , like the rest of us..

My post was just expressing my thoughts on Tcat posts.
I didn't expect all to agree, and there were many other very patient responses.  

 I had just finished my nap, when I read his posts  ;D
 
Keep on shootin'
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Offline rtw

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2004, 11:38:26 PM »
Glad you're back online RJ.
Welcome home

Offline TCat

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2004, 11:41:10 PM »
Grrr.... I had written a detailed message and my browser suddenly vanished.  Probably a mouse error due to a dying keyboard.  Anyhow...

JimACP, I used to subscribe to Gun Tests for years, until about eight years ago.  Cancelled for the same types of reasons you gripe about; I found too much opinion and too many errors.  That doesn't invalidate their reports though, especially when so much of the rest of the world agrees.  Just as I found Consumer Reports off-base so often, but still useful for some data.  I went from very eager when I first heard about the gun to my current holding pattern as I await settling of the opinions.

DDGator, yes, the world agrees that the R9 is more reliable than the Guardian.  But it's less reliable, says the internet in general, than the PM9.  One question I'm grappling with is, is it a measurable difference?  Or, more importantly, would it impact me?  That's a lot harder to say.  The replacement of springs is a bigger deal for me.  More than half my pistols, bought new and at the time popular, are no longer in production.  Should Rohrbaugh go away, the odds of finding replacement springs seems lowish.  And even if they stay around, having to order said springs increases the annoyance factor immensely.

The high cost isn't really much of a factor to me.  Cost is about what I just spent on earrings for my wife.  But I'm only gonna buy one gun in probably the next two years, and if it's gonna be pricey I'd rather it be friendly as a result.  I prefer the IDEA of the R9, but may wind up with a PM9 instead for the perceived reliability.  

GeorgeH, I agree that there's no Apples-to-Apples comparison to the R9.  Or to any other gun.  Or to any car.  Or any woman.  So we generalize.  And I agree with everything you said.  ;)

RJ, you need some valium, me thinks.  Don't seek enemies everywhere you look.  My purpose here is simple: I've been researching these guns (compact pistols) a long time.  I have ones that no longer are in production, though not as many as many other people here probably.  I haven't bought a new gun in more than five years, and I will buy one in the next few weeks, so I wish to ensure I get the one that will annoy me least.  Your defensive attitude is interesting, and perhaps warranted if you have regular troll members here, but makes you sound cranky and, well, all alone in the world.  People can ask hard questions without being trying to "prove other members wrong"; they may be trying to knock the opinions against rocks to get the shells off, to find the nut (kernel) of truth and reality.  

TW, the part I find interesting (beyond RJ's venom) is that you had the two FTEs in 100 shots and don't consider it an issue.  (The keyhole doesn't bug me, my view being that if you hit the target, hitting it sideways isn't a problem.  It's missing the target that's the problem.  And gunfights are close range anyhow.)  Yes, it was non-rec'd ammo, but how much does that constrain your options?  

Offline DDGator

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2004, 12:05:56 AM »
TCat,

I agree with you that the what you are talking about is the "perceived" better reliability of the PM-9. Many people here report 100% function.  The two people who have had the most serious problems had a broken pin that has now been upgraded -- and both people where taken care of expeditiously by Rohrbaugh.

I don't follow the ins and outs of the PM-9 now, having sold mine -- but I know there was recently a signficant recall on them.  I also know that many people bemoan the combination of a plastic mag catch and metal magazines that can shear the catch and render your PM-9 a singe shot pistol.  Incidentally, I also know that my local dealer won't take a Kahr in on trade because he can't resell them.

How important is using recommended ammo?  It's all important.  Find a carry round that your gun likes -- for the R-9 it appears to be Gold Dots.  I don't think anyone has reported any kind of failure using Gold Dots. Gold Dots are used by many, many federal and local police agencies and are readily available -- why not use them?  My Glock 19 on the other hand, would choke on Gold Dots.  Even Glock "Perfection" has its ammo quirks.

As for the springs -- I repeat again that you won't shoot this gun enough to have major worries.  The springs are made by Wolff--probably the largest spring manufacturer in firearms.  Springs should never be a problem.  If you are worried, buy 10 springs and you will never run out.  Maybe 5...

If the size of a PM-9 works for you -- its a more versatile gun.  Larger grip, more magazine options, larger sights with more options (including night sights).  For me, it was too big for pocket carry.  If you are going to carry IWB, it is probably a good choice.  That being said, I don't know how their customer service will compare...and see my comments above relating to resale value.

You are certainly welcome here and we will gladly help you decide, just realize you are coming into the lion's den and poking him a bit...  ;D
« Last Edit: October 04, 2004, 12:08:35 AM by admin »
Duane (DDGator)
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E-mail: Admin-at-RohrbaughForum.com

Offline RJ HEDLEY

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2004, 08:02:57 AM »
 " I haven't bought a new gun in more than five years, and I will buy one in the next few weeks, so I wish to ensure I get the one that will annoy me least."  //  Tcat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I will make a prediction.   When, and if, you ever manage to make the decision to purchase a Rohrbaugh,  you will not like it.  And you will go on to be the biggest headache the Rohrbaugh's have ever encountered.

Maybe you should stick with the Firestar, and stop agonizing over every opinion that differs from your own preconceived opinions.  From your first post, you have sounded like a person that has trouble with purchase decisions.

Thanks for the Valium tip,  I feel much more like conversing with you on your quest for a Carry Weapon that fits your "comfort range",  but this will be my last post in this thread.   Those little pills sure don't last very long.... ::)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2004, 04:11:42 PM by RHEDLEY »
RJ=


 
 

Offline Mr_Jody_Hudson

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2004, 09:15:42 AM »
I have bought and sold hundreds and hundreds of pistols... I consider it to be part of the pleasure of fine firearms.  I enjoy target shooting and enjoy accuracy and reliability at highest levels.

I went through several hundred... and I know that does not make sense... I went through several hundred Walthers in an attempt to find one or two that were accurate and reliable... finally I did.  It is the Makarov.

I went through many, many, 9mm small guns and finally arrived at the one that suits ME the best of all per my criteria - it is the Glock 19.

I have now made a decision to find my favorite SMALL 9mm, also according to my two criteria... currently the Rohrbaugh has no peer in it's size range - FOR ME.

One very nice thing about buying, testing, courting, and getting engaged to various pistols; divorce is easy and inexpensive.  In fact generally I sell my used pistols for almost as much as I buy them for and have a bunch of fun in the meanwhile.  

Wouldn't it be fun if we could do the same thing with cars!  My son does that.  He buys cars at auction, below wholesale, has them worked on a bit, details them, drives them and sells them - often for more than he paid.  That is his deal.  He always has the coolest, rarest, most high performance auto of anyone I've ever known.  However he has only two keeper cars; his Jeep wagon and his Ford pickup.  Meanwhile he has a couple of cool luxury, performance, status, cars at all times as well.

The Rohrbaugh is NOT the most perfect pistol I can imagine.  I would like to have a similar pistol with a polygon barrel, 12 shots and made of some titanium, scandium, type alloy to keep it light.  That pistol does not exist... yet.  However, I enjoy the quality, performance, accuracy, reliability of the Rohrbaugh in the tiny form-factor and for ME it is currently the best there is.  I've tried the rest and have several small 9s of other kinds.

Try it if you wish... Enjoy! ;D
Delaware Real Estate = http://www.Kate-Jody.com

Offline TW

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R9 is not for everyone...
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2004, 01:00:06 PM »
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TW, the part I find interesting (beyond RJ's venom) is that you had the two FTEs in 100 shots and don't consider it an issue.  (The keyhole doesn't bug me, my view being that if you hit the target, hitting it sideways isn't a problem.  It's missing the target that's the problem.  And gunfights are close range anyhow.)  Yes, it was non-rec'd ammo, but how much does that constrain your options?  

>>Hi Tcat...

I don't consider the "problems" I experienced with the R9 as an issue because I was intentially pushing the gun beyond it's intended limits.  Nor do I consider the ammo restrictions a constraint to my purpose with this weapon.  Except for the odd practice session with the gun I intend to keep it in my pocket and forget about it, unless needed one day.

As a matter of fact all three glitches occurred after shots #75...and as I was reminded by the manufacturer this morning - this gun preforms best when it is properly taken down/cleaned/re-lubed every 50 shots...!  So if this sort of maintenance regimen plus the ammo restrictions are beyond your tolerances - definately do NOT buy a Rohrbaugh R9...as you will not be a happy camper, guarandamnteed.  If simplistic reliability is so important to you then buy a Glock 26 (I think that's it - the subcompact 9mm).

Lots to think about when contemplating an expensive purchase (The R9, not the Glock).  Based on everything you have now said I have to agree with others that the R9 is probably not the gun for you.  That is not a problem, but it is not a productive idea to wave the fact in folks faces around here...TW<<

Offline Richard S

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2004, 08:55:29 PM »
TCat:

I have not previously responded directly to your postings, but after second thought I have decided that I should comment on the followng two comments you made with regard to my good friend, R. J. Hedley:

1.  "RJ, you need some valium, me thinks."

2.  "[T]he part I find interesting (beyond RJ's venom). . . ."

As for the first comment -- since you presume to prescribe a controlled substance, I must assume that you may be a physician.  If so, you should know that Valium is the proprietary trade name (thereby requiring initial capitalization) adopted by Hoffmann-LaRoche Inc. and the Roche Group of Switzerland for diazepam (C16H13ClN2O).  You should also know that diazepam is a benzodiazepine used in the treatment of anxiety disorders, seizures, and muscle spasms, and that it is controlled as a Schedule IV substance in the United States.  I know these things because I was one of the Washington attorneys who worked on the Valium scheduling proceedings back in the 1970s.  I also know that my friend, R. J., has no need for any C16H13ClN2O.  He does, however, share some of my own intolerances.  Good whiskey in moderate amounts is usually the best medicine in those circumstances.

As for the second comment -- there is not the slightest bit of venom in R. J.'s  being.  He is straightforward and plain-spoken and has minimal tolerance for pretense.  But venomous -- not on your life!

As the Administrator has observed, you are welcome here at the Forum.  Be advised, however, that most of us who frequent this "camp fire" are here because we share an enthusiasm for what we consider to be one of the most extraordinary pistols yet produced.  

RS
(1963-1967) "GO ARMY!"

Offline TCat

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Re: Rohrbaugh's Rebuttal to Gun Tests -- Read It H
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2004, 10:35:49 PM »
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I will make a prediction.   When, and if, you ever manage to make the decision to purchase a Rohrbaugh,  you will not like it.  And you will go on to be the biggest headache the Rohrbaugh's have ever encountered.
Keep those entertaining delusions coming, RJ.  I'm generally a very laid back customer, largely because I do my research up-front.  I've never contacted a manufacturer about a gun after buying (and I have a decent number.)  

What I tend to be after is a very-well informed buying decision.  And then, after buying, I don't sweat it.  That's a decision-making style called "satisficing".  

Not sweating it may be a foreign concept to you though.  Give it a try.  You really don't have to be unpleasant to be effective and to express your opinions.

Offline TCat

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Re: R9 is not for everyone...
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2004, 10:42:26 PM »
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Based on everything you have now said I have to agree with others that the R9 is probably not the gun for you.
Thanks, I appreciate the opinion.  You may be right.  I'm still deciding.  There's a lot to be said for each gun (excluding the Guardians, which I really don't trust.)

I drove a very high-powered Italian sportscar for a while.  It wasn't for me either; I was happier in a cheap Ford.   I will contemplate longer, but I really do appreciate all the straight-up data.

DD, yes, the Kahr PM9 had a barrel recall.  I wasn't aware that the R9 had a pin recall.  Perhaps that's why so many (current) customers are happy while there was noise before.  Happy customers usually don't make much noise.  Any idea what the pin impacted?

What does IWB mean?  (As in "carry IWB")  

Thanks