The Rohrbaugh Forum

Miscellaneous => Other Guns => Topic started by: DDGator on September 15, 2004, 03:31:56 PM

Title: Primer on an AR?
Post by: DDGator on September 15, 2004, 03:31:56 PM
I know there are lots of knowledgeable people here...

I have always had an interest in ARs, but never taken the time to learn much about them.  Now, the the AWB at least temporarily gone, I have been thinking about one again.

I read a bit over at AR15.com, but it makes me dizzy.  Can someone give me the lay of the land.  I don't need an AR, but do I want one -- and what do I want?

I am interested in the 9mm carbine versions too -- because I could shoot it at the pistol range I belong too, which does not allow any rifle calibers.  Are they junk, or worthwhile?

Thanks for any info.
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: RJ HEDLEY on September 15, 2004, 04:05:52 PM
There is a BIG Gun Show in Lakeland this weekend, and there a lot of knowledgeable people there with AR's for sale.  It will be interesting to see what those pre- bans are going for..
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: rtw on September 15, 2004, 10:25:29 PM
Having carried and used one in Viet Nam, I have zero interest in ever holding one again.

Now, an H&K MP5...that's another story.
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: BillinPittsburgh on September 15, 2004, 11:09:30 PM
The best AR for the price is probably Bushmaster.  Mine is a Bushmaster upper mated to a Colt lower.

Get a barrel with a twist rate of 1 turn in 9 inches for most general use.  The 1 turn in 7 inch twist rate of the A2 guns is really too fast.  1 turn in 8 inches is okay for really heavy bullets.

A heavy configuration, fluted barrel will give really good stiffness, better than the issue barrel, without the weight of an all-out heavy barrel.

Make sure the actual rifled portion of the barrel is at least 16".  Stay away from shorter barrels with permanently attached compensators to reach the federally mandated 16".  .223 really needs at least 16" of barrel to be effective.  It only loses 100 fps going from 20" to 15", but loses 300 fps going from 16" to 11.5".  Much of the complaints you hear about the ineffectiveness of the caliber in Afghanistan and Iraq are with the 14.5" barrel M4, causing the Marines to go instead to the M16A4, with all the M4 features but with a 20" barrel.

Get a chrome-lined barrel.

Despite the trend towards illuminated dot sights, I really think the basic iron sights are best, and for that reason my own gun has a fixed carry handle.  My front sight is an Ashley tritium post.  That means elevation adjustment is limited to full turns of 2 MOA each instead of 1/4 turns of 1/2 MOA each, but I still can sight in reasonably well.  Many of the illuminated dot sights will distort your visual acuity as you look through them (to the point that I can't even see the 100 yard bullseye that I can hit with iron sights), and a few will also cut light - not what you need at night.  I have had problems with Trijicon and C-more.  The Leopold CQ/T and Aimpoint are the best models I have seen, but I haven't actually shot with them.

If you do go with illuminated dot sights, get folding front and rear sights to go with it.

I like a Giles sling for serious purposes - the rifle hangs across your chest muzzle-down, and can be quickly raised to the shoulder for shooting.  It is very easy to get on and off.  A leather military sling might serve you better if your goal is competition.

My AR has a TACMIII light mounted above the barrel, in front of the front sight, with the pressure switch on the forward handgrip.  I may at some point switch to a Surefire model built directly into the handguard, but am in no hurry.

I have heard varying opinions of the Thermold magazines, but I have several and they work fine for me.  Don't clamp your magazines together - some users have problems with the magazines after doing so regardless of what they are made of.
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?I am
Post by: Michigunner on August 02, 2005, 10:21:33 PM
I am right in the middle of a trade right now, for a Bushmaster  AR15.  It is a carbine with A2 upper and 11.5” chrome lined barrel.

There sure is a lot of info on ar15.com.  It kind of makes  your head spin.

Bill
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: BlueGrips on August 02, 2005, 11:07:00 PM
I, too, lust for one lately. Reading SWAT and tactical magazines gave me a pretty batch itch. But I've been questioning the practicality of owning an AR-15.

If I can legally use an AR-15 as a hunting rifle in public land I would buy one in a heartbeat. But Florida law limits max of 5 rounds in a hunting rifle:

"Prohibited centerfire, semi-automatic rifles having magazine capacities of more than five rounds. Prohibited non-expanding, full metal case (military ball) ammunition for taking deer. Prohibited fully automatic or silencer-equipted firearms..."

Does the sentences above allow me to put 5 rounds in the 30-round AR-15 magazine and call it legal for hunting or not?

Has anyone used it to hunt in private land with good result? If it is good enough to be used to hunt down enemies, it is good enough to get some venison!

Also, how accurate is it as compared to a simple bolt-action hunting rifle such as the Remington 700 in the same caliber?

I note from AR15.COM that many people "build" these from kits for relatively cheep ($600.)

Thanks and Cheers!
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: DDGator on August 02, 2005, 11:09:59 PM
I scratched the rifle itch... a little... a few months ago, buying a Romanian AK.  I had it to the range once and it worked flawlessly, but I need more trigger time behind a long gun to get used to it.  The AK strikes me as tough, utilitarian, unpolished... and pretty darn good.

Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: theirishguard on August 02, 2005, 11:31:52 PM
Bill, Stay away from the 11.5" bbl. That is most likely why he is selling it. They don't run good, bbl too short. You have to drill out the gas port. Go with at least a 16" bbl. Anything you can do with a 11.5"bbl, you can do more and better with a 16" or 20" bbl.   Tom
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 02, 2005, 11:53:20 PM
Thanks, Tom.  I appreciate your good advice.

My research was a little hurried.

Unfortunately, I have already committed to the trade.  It's a matter of doing what I said would be done.

It will just be used for fooling around and plinking, so it doesn't matter quite as much to me, as it might for a more refined gentleman.

I'll probably just sit in my leather chair holding the rifle, watching TV,  and occasionally roll on the floor making gun sounds.  ;D

Bill
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: DDGator on August 02, 2005, 11:56:28 PM
Ha Ha Ha Ha!  ROTFL

That is always fun until you wife gets home.   ;D
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Richard S on August 03, 2005, 12:13:57 AM
cuteo100:

This is not to start an argument.  And I admit that I am a "dinosaur" on this subject.  However, I won't use a semi-automatic weapon -- not even a semi-automatic shotgun -- for hunting anything that can't shoot back.  For things that can shoot back, I'll use anything I can get my hands on at the time.  

I think I first came to this way of thinking back in Germany circa 1963.  Because of a treaty then in force, I had managed to obtain a Hunter-Instructor's license while stationed there.  During the course of some of my hunts in the Black Forest area, I came to know a Forstmeister who was renowned for having hunted and killed a charging wild boar (keiler) with a spear planted in the ground.  (Under German Forestry custom, he was therefore entitled to wear the boar's brush and tusks on his hat at all times -- which he did.)  For me, it brought a whole new meaning to the concept of hunting.

The slight limp which I have on cold mornings these days is a legacy of that attitude left over from a hunt in the Challis Wilderness of Idaho several years ago.  But that is another story for another day.

Stay safe.

Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: DDGator on August 03, 2005, 12:16:05 AM
Hmmm.  You can't just drop a great tidbit like that and walk away....  

Let us know the story in due course.  ;)
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Newt on August 03, 2005, 10:01:50 AM
I have many AR's and I 2nd the Bushmaster recomendation. Armalite makes a good one too.
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 03, 2005, 03:23:08 PM
Well, I have my AR15 here now.

I'm so happy, I can't stand it!

Life is good.

Bill

Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: theirishguard on August 03, 2005, 03:32:56 PM
Bill, Enjoy every pull of the trigger. Don't rub the finish off.   Tom
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: R9SCarry on August 03, 2005, 04:21:40 PM
OK Bill - you know what's comin?? !! :D

(http://www.acbsystems.com/images/smilies/need-pics.gif)
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 03, 2005, 04:30:31 PM
Chris,

I'll try to get the close-up lens figured out, and post some things.  It may take a while to experiment.

Thanks for mentioning the subject.  Naturally, I'm very proud.

Bill

Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 03, 2005, 04:34:07 PM
Please allow a question about the AR-15.

I notice that the A3 upper handle can be removed, to reveal weaver type mounts.

Meanwhile, my new toy has the A2 handle, which stays in place.

Does anyone have a link to a dirt-cheap attachment for the A2 handle, so I can end up with a weaver mount?

First, I want to mount my cheap Red Dot scope, just for fun, and then perhaps get  an EOtech.

Bill
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Richard S on August 03, 2005, 04:57:14 PM
Bill:

Congratulations on your new toy!  I'm turning a little green with envy.

Are any of these links helpful?

http://tacticalgears.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=17

http://www.villagetactical.com/shop/category/mounts/page1.html

http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/MOUNTS.htm

http://www.webarms.com/Tactical%20Mounts%20and%20Slings.htm
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: BlueGrips on August 03, 2005, 06:43:31 PM
Quote
cuteo100:
I won't use a semi-automatic weapon -- not even a semi-automatic shotgun -- for hunting anything that can't shoot back.  

Richard: Your point is well taken and with due respect. I also learned from another forum last night that using a tactical rifle such as an AR-15 for hunting is not ethically correct for the light round would just injure/wound the deer instead of putting it down where it stood. I now have my heart set on a Remington 700 chambered in 280Rem & a Leupold scope for the task.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 03, 2005, 07:23:27 PM
Richard, thank you for the links.  I'm looking into it.

It's rather confusing, some  of this stuff.

Bill
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 03, 2005, 07:26:56 PM
This device may be appropriate for the A2 handle.
BMAS Wide View Scope mount

Does anyone think this would be OK?

Thanks, Bill


http://www.bushmaster.com/electronic-documents/2005Catalogv1/Page%2071-74%20BMAS%20&%20Accessories.pdf
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 03, 2005, 07:31:41 PM
Maybe it would have been better to learn all about the AR-15 before buying one.   :)

Bill
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Richard S on August 03, 2005, 07:41:25 PM
Bill:

Guns are like women.  You have to spend a lot of time with them before you really learn to know them.  You're doing just fine!  (At this point, once again, I dive for cover.)   8)

Cuteo100:

From your previous postings and their photographs, I knew that you were a man of exquisite taste in firearms.  The bolt-action Remington 700 is about as good as they get.  (Did you know that they offer a custom model . . . ?)  http://www.remington.com/firearms/custom/700custom_c.htm

Good hunting!   Or, as my friend the Forstmeister would say, "Weitmannsheil!"  :D
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: BillinPittsburgh on August 03, 2005, 08:42:53 PM
Bill,

Before you buy ANY red dot scope, take a look through it while trying to read something at a distance.  If it is more difficult than with the naked eye, then don't buy it.

I've used red dot sights in the $200+ price range that don't even allow me to see a standard 100 yard bullseye at that distance, much less hit it.  I can hit it using iron sights.

Depending on your intended usage, your best sights may be the issue rear aperture with an Ashley post with a tritium insert.  That is what I use on my gun.
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 03, 2005, 09:00:12 PM
Thanks very much, Bill.

I just happened to have a $30 red dot scope from Gander Mountain.  I thought it would  be fun to mount it on the A2 handle, even though the red dot is not  the best.

Also, I was a little interested in the EOtech scope and was looking for a mount for it.  Certainly, there is a question about it being way too far up in the air, sitting on the A2 handle.  Pardon my terminology.

It just seemed like fun to have some optics.

I'll give the iron sights a good workout, although the old shooting eye just had cataract surgery.

Thanks again,

Bill



Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: BillinPittsburgh on August 03, 2005, 10:24:04 PM
Bill,

Other things you might consider:

1)  Switch to an A3 upper receiver.  You should be able to do this with all of your other current parts, although you may need a gunsmith to help, depending on what equipment you have and how comfortable you are taking apart your rifle.

2)  Get a forward handguard with a top weaver rail, and mount the sight so that it is co-witnessed with the iron sights.  Use the dot only for quick shooting and the co-witnessed sights for more precision.
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 04, 2005, 08:29:17 PM
Bill,

Do you have a link to the place where you got the Ashley tritium post on the front sight of your AR-15?

I read a post on another forum where you said it installed easily.

Bill
Title: Primer on an AR?
Post by: TW on August 05, 2005, 02:15:46 AM
>>Hi Duane...

I too have a Bushmaster AR...set up similar to the one Bill describes, except I am currently using a 1.5 - 5X by 20mm Leopold on top with high mount scope rings (still have original folding sights on it which are usable).  I LOVE this gun...and with the leopold it is quite accurate out to at least 125 yards (max I've been able to shoot it at thus far).  The trigger on this beast is hardly crisp...but I got used to it...besides which for $100 you can get a nice drop in match-type unit...which I have yet to do as I don't need it.  Mine is a .223.

Now regarding the 9mm...  You might want to consider a Beretta Storm Carbine, which you can get in 9mm, .40, or .45.  I've heard you can buy separate uppers to allow you all three calibers, but I can't confirm this.  What I can confirm...is that in 9mm I have never had so much fun...!...and at easily half the price of your average AR.  I have used the open sights, Leoplod, as above, laser sights, and currently a halo sight - all with excellent results.  Matter of fact...just using the supplied open sights I can regularly hit a 10" metal pie plate at 125 yards fast (vs rapid) fire.  Regular = hits on nine out of 10 shots...over and over.  The gun really shines at 75 yards and under.

One of the many cool things about this gun is that it uses mags from a Beretta 92/96/maybe others...so if you are like me with half a dozen 92 high cap (15-20 round) mags for your pistol - then you are good to go...!  Check it out...!  You won't be dissappointed...!...TW<<
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: R9SCarry on August 05, 2005, 01:52:42 PM
TW - another Storm lover here!!  I did slam a red dot on mine very quick - just cos of my usual probs with open sights.  It is a pleasure to shoot - the downside being the rapidity with which ammo can be all used up!! :D

The early fat red dor was not very good - I now have a fairly inexpensive Simmons which seems OK.


(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/cb_gun2/storm-s.jpg)
Title: Primer on an AR?
Post by: TW on August 05, 2005, 05:29:11 PM
>>Chris - I've always known you are a man of good tastes...!  I currently have a combo on my Storm...is topped off with a Bushnell Halo sight which I love because it allows me to put both eyes to effect...watching the red dot as I swing around and the full landscape at the same time.  Then on the bottom rail I have an MP6 laser/light package...which is just darn fun and can be used in conjunction with the Halo.

Even though magnification with a scope brings out the pin point accuracy of this gun - I much prefer the Halo which I feel better draws out the potential for what this critter was designed for...know what I mean...?

AAAAAAAAND...  I find the Storm to be a serious home defense weapon being a carbine putting out a pistol caliber.  I would gladly pick up a Storm any day for just about any home or work purpose.

Regarding ammo...  I find it much cheaper to buy bulk 9mm than the .223 my Bushmaster eats.

You know, Chris...  Maybe we shouldn't tell Duane about the Storm??  You know - keep all the fun for ourselves...see...?  NAAAAAAA...that's just not fair.  Duane is a great guy.  But lets see if he will  bother to listen to us...?...TW<<
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: R9SCarry on August 05, 2005, 09:08:35 PM
My main gripe TW with CX4 is price - I got mine almost NIB so a bit cheaper than new but - I do think the gun is a tad excessive for price.

Put that aside tho - and I have what I call my ''Flash Gordon'' (some say Buck Rogers! LOL) piece of very useful hardware - and once held the ergonomics suit me well - and the look becomes replaced with just versatility and usefulness.

Some folks sneer at such carbines but for me they maximize the use of the humble 9mm - very useful velocity increase and rate of fire can also be quite impressive.  Further to that - I find as I expect you do too - the gun is very wieldy - even imagining use in a very tight space.

I am well glad I got mine.
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Brenden on August 05, 2005, 10:13:24 PM
Wow..
I cannot believe I missed this in the last 2-3 days..

Thats what I get for being busy.. ;)

I have recently gotten into the AR "trap" as of late.. ;D

A "trap" because you have to trick out whatever you buy-It is a Rule..Look it up.. ::)

I love the 6920-thats the A3 configuration,and you can put MANY extras with it..

I personally like the Aimpoint site with the B.U.I.S. A weapons light is a nice option also.. :)

Then you can free float the handguards and be able to put anymore needed things,such as a laser,upon the platform.. ;)

I shall stop now for brevity and to let the checkbook cool off. 8)

Mine is fun just shooting it with the iron sites too!! :D
Title: Beretta Storm...
Post by: TW on August 06, 2005, 05:11:33 AM
Quote
My main gripe TW with CX4 is price - I got mine almost NIB so a bit cheaper than new but - I do think the gun is a tad excessive for price.

>>I don't know, Chris...  What's the Storm retail - $500 - $600...?  That's about as much as a nice 9mm handgun...and easily half the price of an AR-15.  I don't think that is too bad myself...TW<<
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: R9SCarry on August 06, 2005, 01:33:41 PM
Might just be a ''thing'' TW - because of all the plastic!! ;D
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: BillinPittsburgh on August 07, 2005, 10:04:49 PM
Quote
Bill,

Do you have a link to the place where you got the Ashley tritium post on the front sight of your AR-15?

I read a post on another forum where you said it installed easily.

Bill

Try here:

http://www.gunaccessories.com/ExpressSights/AR15.asp
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Rocnerd on August 08, 2005, 02:27:46 PM
I got to shoot my friends brand new used storm yesterday.  He got an awesome deal on a very slightly used one.  I think he paid $350 for it with a rail, front handle, and laser.  It shoots great is accurate, we were hitting .223 casing taped to hang below our target at about 50 yards.  If not for the lack of funds right now I would be tempted to run out and get one.  I need to save up for an AK though since I have been told "they" are going to ban the importation of AK barrels.  So, if that is true I need to save up for a nice one before the prices shoot up.  Anyone else hear this?
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Aglifter on August 08, 2005, 06:19:43 PM
I think I would have gotten an "alert" email from the NRA about that, but I could be wrong.  I have a armory USA Ak that I'm quite happy with -- wasn't too expensive, maybe $800 -- it's milled in the Houston, with some parts from Bulgaria, so I don't know how it's classified.

Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: R9SCarry on August 08, 2005, 09:49:37 PM
Regardless of any scare stories - I do think it worthwhile to get the various things like AK's now - also some C&R's that seem so plentiful right now - will one day dry up.

Rocnerd - I'd say you did more than well on that CX4 deal - very well indeed.
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Rocnerd on August 09, 2005, 08:43:13 AM
Well my friend got the deal actually, but since he already has a Colt 9mm AR I think when the time is right and the initial romance is over with the storm I'll be able to buy it off him.  We will see.  Right now I need to save up the finances for the AK.
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: R9SCarry on August 10, 2005, 10:01:10 PM
Ahhh - oh OK - well let's say then that when he ''tires'' of it - he should give you one heck of good deal too! ;)
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 22, 2005, 09:51:59 PM
I finally ordered a Bushmaster  mount called A.R.M.S. #39A2 Bi-Level Rail which mounts on M16A1 and A2.

Now I'm hoping it will fit my plain old Bushmaster AR-15 carbine which has an A2 handle.

The A2 handle only has a single hole in the top, but I'm concerned the new mount may require one more hole on the forward portion of the handle.  That is, it may have two bolts, but the handle may have only one hole.

I'm hoping the forward bolt does not actually pass through the handle, but just tightens up a clamp of some sort.

Have any of you folks used a mount like this?

Sure don't want to do any drilling!

Bill
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on August 24, 2005, 02:31:13 PM
I found that the ARMS #39 only requires one hole, so no problem.

We  ordered an EOTech 512.A65, Rev. F scope today,  which uses AA batteries.

I'll see if the accuracy compares to my R9S.

Bill
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: mefly2 on October 02, 2005, 12:16:02 AM
Hear, hear for the MP5 or... how about an SP-89 with laser for around the house!

mefly2
   ;)
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: theirishguard on October 02, 2005, 06:10:05 PM
I've had about 10+ MP5's and 6+ MP5SD's, they are fun and great to shoot. Plus they sell well.
Tom
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Brenden on October 02, 2005, 06:19:25 PM
Quote
I've had about 10+ MP5's and 6+ MP5SD's, they are fun and great to shoot. Plus they sell well.
Tom

If only I could in Michigan!! :(
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on October 27, 2005, 01:24:39 PM
This AR-15 thing continues to be a lot of fun.  I should have got into one years ago.

I took my Bushmaster A2 Carbine and swapped in a flattop receiver, and used the old components.  That is, the gunsmith did it.

Now it has a new EOtech 512 installed on the flattop.  I just ordered a YHM-220 EOtech riser to raise the scope up about 1/4 inch, in order to lower the front iron sights in the EOtech view.

Bill
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Richard S on October 27, 2005, 03:24:03 PM
Bill:

You may be interested in this video, which is advertised on the back cover of this month's Concealed Carry Magazine:

http://www.keepshooting.com/booksandvideos/videos/gun-video-ar-15.htm
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on October 27, 2005, 03:30:04 PM
Thanks very much, Richard.

That looks very good.  It's also two hours long!

Maybe someday we will have a book about the R9S.  Now that would be something to enjoy, too.

Bill
Title: Re: Primer on an AR?
Post by: Michigunner on November 06, 2005, 07:42:16 PM
Well, I finally got a new Eotech rail riser on my AR-15 flat top.

Everything is all mounted, using blue Loc-Tite on the rail mounting screw.

The rail is not absolutely perfectly centered (left to right) on the flat top.   The front iron sight and the Eotech reticle are not vertically aligned.  Yuk!

I'm going to shoot it some, and see if minor adjustments are appropriate.  Otherwise, I guess it will have to be broken down and recentered.

Probably shoud have taken it to a gunsmith.