Why on Earth do you NEED a gun?!

[DDGator]

This just ocurred yesterday not far from where I live and work:

St. Pete Times Story -- Multiple Murder at Radio Shack

People sometimes ask -- why in world to you need to carry a gun?  Or -- why would you ever need a gun when you are out shopping in the middle of the day?  Are you THAT paranoid?

My new -- close to home -- example is described in the above story.  Two people killed and one critically injured in a random act of gun violence in a Radio Shack store in my neighborhood.

God knows any one of us could have been the first person shot "without warning."  I certainly hope that if I was victim No. 2 or No. 3 -- that I would have stopped this before it got to me or someone else.  Or died trying...

God bless the victims and their families.

(Also posted on The High Road)

[BillinPittsburgh]

I tell people that pistols are for times when you don't think you'll need a gun.  If I knew in advance that I was going to need one, then as non-military, non-LEO, I am not likely to be going in the first place, and if I had to go, I'd take an AR-15.

[R9SCarry]

Duane - this is a tragic but perfect example of why we should carry.  I hope as always that the one in a million situation will not be mine .... but sure as heck want to be prepared.  My heart goes out to families of those involved.

To quote old analogies - my carry is my fire extinguisher - it is my spare tire - it is my smoke alarm - it is my contents insurance - etc ... etc.  Hopefully never needed.

I live semi rural - and most of time crime is low key - vandalism, and odd break-ins but only a week ago there was an armed robbery at a local pharmacy - maybe I could have been in there that day.  There was also a guy attacked outside a bar not too far away - the perps were armed, tho fortunately he was not shot.

As I say and repeat to all ..

''Expect the unexpected''.

''Do not assume - anything''!

[RJ HEDLEY]

I think about different scenario's and how I would react, as most of us do.  It is very hard,  most times, to call.

For example,  you are in small Food market with your Wife/girl friend. You are positioned about half way back in the store, and you see the Cashiers being robbed at gun point by two screaming thugs. You are armed, companion is not.
 What are your thoughts?

Now add, one of the cashiers has now been shot..

[BillinPittsburgh]

The two things that will determine how you will react are:

1)  How thorough is your training?

2)  To what extent have you suppressed the natural denial instinct so that you can immediately perceive what is happening and accept what you see as reality?

With any third party situation, I'm not getting involved unless I am reasonably certain I know who the aggressor and victim are.  How do you know that the guy pointing his gun at the person lying on the ground isn't really pointing it at the snake next to them?  How do you know that the scruffy guy grabbing someone off the street isn't a LEO (you can probably tell by their conduct, but you should consider this)?  How do you know that the person getting beaten up wasn't a mugger whose victim got the best of him?

Beyond that, the general advice given in third party situations is that your gun is to protect you and your family.  Some will argue that it isn't worth the criminal and civil proceedings to help someone else.  If I am certain who the good and bad guys are, then God gave me the abilities He gave me because He expects me to make use of them for proper purposes.

[RJ HEDLEY]

To add to, "1)  How thorough is your training? " [not to question your training, Bill].  

What was the quaility of your training,  was it valid?
Too many *Want to be* trainers out there...

The Reality Recognition is a very good point/factor.
 
....But what would you do in the scenario above?

[Ratzo]

I am a Retired LEO, and to the question, the main thing is common sense, if you act in the wrong way everyone in the place could be shot, you just have to wait and be ready, this is why you should take every type of defense class you can and then you will know when to shoot or not.,  and if you are ever in this type of incident common sense and good training will take over.  also the more training of a Firearm you have the better it will be for you if ever you have to go to court for a shooting.

[BillinPittsburgh]

Hi RJ,

You make a very good point about the quality of training.  There are literally more wannabes than there are good trainers, and the quality of the training definitely has an impact on whether your chosen course of action will work.

However, on the issue of what you will do, the thoroughness of the training is the sole determining factor.  If the training (good or bad) was thorough, then you will act in accordance with it.

As for the specific hypothetical you proposed, I'm not going to fault the decision to or not to get involved.  You definitely don't want to start a gunfight if there is no shooting yet, and you don't want to create additional danger if you believe based on your observations that they are just going to take the money and leave.  However, if you believe that shooting is likely, why not shoot one - or hopefully both - robbers before they know you are there?  Let the first person to be suprised by getting hit be one of them and not one of the innocent bystanders.  Wait, and it might be too late to safe someone.

[FireBreather01]

Remember the shoot/no-shoot triad determining a justifiable shooting - ability, opportunity, jeopardy. If the thugs have the ability - a weapon, the opportunity - proximity and weapons drawn, and jeopardy - they have threatened, situation is spiraling out of control, you have determined that the bad guys have manifest intent to kill or cripple that you have determined by their words or actions - then you are completely justified in shooting to protect the innocent. Jeopardy is the most interpretive of the triad - you must be able to articulate what you perceived as the bad guys' manifest intent to do harm.

Again, train, practice, and take classes - I agree with Ratzo - in almost every deadly force situation I have read or studied, virtually everyone says that they didn't have time to even think - once the action started they all reverted to their training and went on auto-pilot and generally everything is over in seconds. No time to think - just react - and you will act/react according to your training.

Just to indicate how ingrained training becomes in your actions - many years ago when police in New York carried revolvers and trained with them at the range they would routinely remove their empty shells from their cylinders and pocket the brass so they wouldn't have to clean up after they shot. It was soon discovered that in actual shootings that most police officers were wasting re-load time by pocketing their brass in the midst of the shoot! And it was thought at the time that this action actually cost some officers their lives. A powerful example of acting exactly as you train.