The Rohrbaugh Forum

Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh Wish List => Topic started by: riffraff on July 09, 2006, 08:59:32 PM

Title: Titanium Frame
Post by: riffraff on July 09, 2006, 08:59:32 PM
I just don't trust the Aluminum frame to hold up for years and years.  I know it would cost quite a bit more but I would like to see a Rohrbaugh with a Titanium frame.  The weight of the Rohrbaugh is not an issue for me it is the size and proportions and smooth edges that I like so the added weight of a Titamium frame would not bother me at all.

Mike
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Fud on July 10, 2006, 12:14:28 PM
Sounds like an EXCELLENT idea to me.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: PsychoSword on August 13, 2006, 03:12:49 AM
A titanium framed R9S would be AWESOME.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: PursuitSS on August 13, 2006, 12:51:20 PM
Better yet......................an ALL titanium Rohrbaugh!

PursuitSS
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: riffraff on August 13, 2006, 02:49:56 PM
PersuitSS,

Yes it would be the ultimate but I bet an all Titanium R9S would cost at least $4000.00.  That would be just a little to spendy for just about anyone.

I am going to guess and say a titanium frame would boost the cost of an R9S to at least $1500.00.

Also the lower weight of the slide would maybe cause some difficulties and require major reengineering(the timeing of the cycle would change, heavier slide springs would be required, etc.).  I just don't know if a titanium slide is really doable given the incredibly small proportions of the R9.

Mike
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Fud on August 14, 2006, 09:29:24 PM
Quote
Also the lower weight of the slide would maybe cause some difficulties and require major reengineering(the timeing of the cycle would change, heavier slide springs would be required, etc.).  I just don't know if a titanium slide is really doable given the incredibly small proportions of the R9.
If I am not mistaken, the slide is made out of steel and titanium is lighter than steel. Heavier than the metal alloy presently used but still lighter than steel. So, would that really be an issue?
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: PsychoSword on August 14, 2006, 11:09:15 PM
You think it would cost $4,000? k...

He said all titanium, not all gold.

I don't know if titanium has the necessary mass to act as a slide. I think it's too light.

But I'm not a gun engineer. Titanium frame with stainless slide would be good.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: theirishguard on August 15, 2006, 10:08:15 AM
I have seen 1911 Colt light weight Commanders hold up for years after firing thousands of rounds, no cracks.
Tom
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: riffraff on August 15, 2006, 08:44:58 PM
Psychosword,

Working with titanium is a whole nother ballgame.  The titanium would have to be in a soft a state as possible and when the slide was finished it would have to be heat treated.  Anyway, I am no engineer but it would be much more complicated than to just mill the slide out of titanium.  I also think you are right in that a titanium slide would not have the necessary mass.  A titanium frame on the other hand could be cast and probably must be cast because to mill a frame from titanium would be a long slow process.
I am no engineer.  Who knows a thing or two about titanium

Come to think of it, if not a titanium frame how about a Scandium frame.

Tom,  about the Colt lightweight Commanders holding up for thousands of rounds, I believe you but I have examined the R9 frame and it is scary thin is some places that I would feel better about if they were thicker.

Mike
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: PsychoSword on August 15, 2006, 11:27:56 PM
Could be wrong, but as far as I know S&W has the exclusive rights to produce scandium guns. Either that, or they're the only ones that have a line on getting the scandium to produce the guns. I've heard it comes from Russia.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: IDM on September 13, 2006, 01:09:44 AM
Hey all
New to the site. Good topic.
I have a few 8-10 years of carbon fiber, Kevlar, and Ti design and manufacturing.
This to me would be great gun with a lower in ti. for proto types the way to go is cnc it. But for a production it would need to be cast to keep cost down. $4000 is a little steep,. I think I could build a proto for that.
The other possible ti process is powder sintering. Its kinda like a casting but not. yoi takr ti powder and compress it into a mold with vary high pressure. Then it is put in a oven and taken to just below melting point. The ti particals bond to each other creating the part. It come out about 80% the normal strenght of billet but that should not be a isssue. The other plus to this is that it is a little lighter than billet ti because it has a bit of porosity to it.
Any way sorry for the long 2 cents
Ill have a chance in a week or so to get my hand on a R9.
Im getting one from Tom in a week or so.
Thanks tom

Bryce
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: TXAGGIECHL on September 13, 2006, 01:47:35 AM
Powder casting with Ti sounds a lot like how they make MIM parts.  Does powder casting have the same problems as MIM if not done correctly?
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: IDM on September 13, 2006, 03:26:47 AM
What type of problems are you speaking of ?
Being brittle or bad spots, is what Im assuming you are speaking of?
The powder proccess is alot better because you dont get the voids in the part because of the cooling of the metal as it enters the mold cavity. The compression takes care of the voids.
Bryce
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: IDM on September 13, 2006, 12:09:40 PM
I dont remember but one of the big motorcycle mfg's use the powder procces for one of the engine side case's.
Ktm or Handa  dirt bikes I think.
Bryce
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Ubik380 on September 13, 2006, 06:03:55 PM
I seem to recall that some kinds of bearings are made with the powder method because the porosity allows lubricants to build up in the part itself. Anyone know if this is true?
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Fud on September 14, 2006, 08:18:35 AM
Quote
Could be wrong, but as far as I know S&W has the exclusive rights to produce scandium guns. Either that, or they're the only ones that have a line on getting the scandium to produce the guns. I've heard it comes from Russia.
They don't have an exclusive right to produce scandium guns. They have an exclusive supply of scandium from one of the former Soviet Union countries.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: TXAGGIECHL on September 14, 2006, 08:33:15 AM
Actually, the main source of scandium is from military stockpiles from the former Soviet Union, which were themselves extracted from uranium tailings. There is no primary production in the Americas or Europe.
(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandium)
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: riffraff on September 17, 2006, 06:55:44 PM
I believe, but an not sure, that what Smith and Wesson calls their Scandium guns actually are an alloy of Scandium and Aluminum.  Scandium greatly strenghtens Aluminum somehow.  I don't know the specifics as I am not an engineer or a metalurgist.  This is what I have heard, is this correct or not?

Mike

NEVER MIND, I just clicked the link in the preceeding thread.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: TXAGGIECHL on September 17, 2006, 07:08:53 PM
Scandium does some neat stuff when mixed with aluminum in regards to changing and strengthening aluminum's properties.  
Similar to how a pinch yeast makes a pound of dough rise.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Aglifter on December 04, 2006, 10:35:34 PM
yeah, it's actually a tiny bit of scandium added to the aluminum -- really increases the strength -- I think I might have had some race parts for a sailboat made in that powder method.  Real "foamy" looking aluminum, didn't do too badly corrosion-wise, but eventually got too weakened, and cracked up -- might be something else, too.  It was really weird stuff made to be as light as possible -- which was dumb, weakened critical parts of the boat to save ~1.5#s of a 10M boat.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: PsychoSword on February 25, 2007, 02:03:38 PM
I wish this idea would get some wings, I know alot of people would love to see a titanium or scandium framed version. Or even a stainless steel frame.

It would be nice to have a more durable version of the Rohrbaugh R9s available for purchase.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Fud on February 25, 2007, 10:39:35 PM
+1 for the stainless steel frame
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: PsychoSword on February 26, 2007, 03:24:45 AM
Quote
+1 for the stainless steel frame


Amen. I would pocket a stainless framed version no problem. It would be heavier, but I know it would still be a damn sight lighter than the MK9 I'm used to pocketing.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: TXAGGIECHL on February 26, 2007, 09:44:44 AM
A fraction more weight could do wonders for reliability.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Fud on March 03, 2007, 01:56:06 AM
Anybody from Rohrbaugh listening?
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: PsychoSword on March 17, 2007, 03:11:45 AM
Quote
A fraction more weight could do wonders for reliability.


More grip is good too. :)
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: shakermountain on November 09, 2007, 03:26:08 AM
Powder Metallurgy is widely used in the auto industry for making everything from fuel filters (this is where the porosity advantage kicks in) to planetary gears for transmissions. In some case the compacts are made of just one alloy, in others alower melting point alloy powder (like copper) is mixed in so the part can be "bonded" at a lower than sintering temp. This can produce incredibly stong, tough, and hard units like the gears. Tungsten alloy parts for aerospace/ military are made exclusively by this method. This would definitely be the way to go if RB could convince the bank that they'd sell 20.000 or more units per mold. 10 to 15 K is usually considered the break-even point in this type of manufacture.

Titanium Frame? I'd shell out 2 grand for one without batting an eye. Seems very doable with a nice margin if they farmed it out. For a gun frame I think simple investment casting would do the trick, considering the lower production numbers.

CNC would work too, but the frame would not be as strong. I'm not sure drop forging would be cost-effective

This new casting process:

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=286

might also work, but would definitely push the cost up to PM comparabiltiy. I'd go with lost wax centrifuge casting to keep the cost down.

So, when does RB start taking orders? `:~>

Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: riffraff on November 09, 2007, 06:10:26 PM
I have a bad feeling that we are going to see the R380 introduced and the R45 introduced before we see a R9 with a frame other than alluminum alloy.  I don't like it but this is just the feeling I am getting as I hear about all the things that the Rbros are working on.

Mike
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: harrydog on January 22, 2008, 08:59:09 AM
At one time, back in the very early pre-production days of Rohrbaugh, stainless steel and titanium frames were both options being considered. But a couple of years ago I had a conversation with Eric R. and he said that while stainless was still an eventual possibility, it was highly unlikely that a titanium frame version would ever be produced.
Too bad...   :'(
I'm sure Ruger would be more than happy to produce them for Rohrbaugh.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: riffraff on January 22, 2008, 07:07:39 PM
All,

Yes, I do understand that the Scandium alloy is trademarked by Smith and Wesson. and Titanium is pretty hard to work with and I don't ever expect those items.  I do want a SS OR even a carbon steel lower for the R9.  I know that that is not to much to ask.  I don't want to hear excuses from anybody.  If the R bros don't have the time(which I believe is the big issue) then FARM IT OUT.

Mike
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: jetman on August 03, 2008, 12:46:04 PM
I'd DEFINIETLY be in line for a Ti framed version and would pay the difference in price for one!
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: riffraff on September 19, 2008, 06:38:58 PM


I am repeating myself again but I too would like to see a carbon steel, stainless steel, scandium or  titanium frame become available.  I love my R9's and would like the extra strength and heft of these materials.  These materials wouldn't increase the size at all and would add a little heft which would help with recoil/target reaquisition.

Mike
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: flintsghost on April 15, 2011, 08:21:53 PM
Quote
I just don't trust the Aluminum frame to hold up for years and years.  I know it would cost quite a bit more but I would like to see a Rohrbaugh with a Titanium frame.  The weight of the Rohrbaugh is not an issue for me it is the size and proportions and smooth edges that I like so the added weight of a Titamium frame would not bother me at all.

Mike

I have a Colt Lightweight commander made in 1951 and I have personally put about 10,000 rds through it.  What's not to trust about aluminum.   The first aluminum receivers were made in 1949 by Alcoa for both high standard and Colt although High Standard got their .22 to market first.   They've been around for a long time.

Titanium is very hard to machine and investment cast as Caspian is finding out.  Lots of frames returned because of casting flaws.   The loss rate on frames is high adding to the cost of production.   The rohrbaugh already costs almost $100 an ounce at retail.   How much more would you pay for a heavier gun.   Titanium is heavier than aluminum but 40% lighter than steel.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Webstrands on July 11, 2012, 05:54:14 PM
I used to have a Colt Lightweight Commander (aluminum frame) that I put over 1,000 rounds through with no adverse effect on the frame.  I would not worry about a Rohrbaugh with an aluminum frame which is COSS (Carried-Often-Shot-Seldom).

webstrands
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: yankee2500 on July 12, 2012, 12:17:12 AM
Webstrands, welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: C0untZer0 on July 30, 2012, 09:09:54 PM
What are people's opinions on the aluminum framed Heizer DoubleTap?

The only thing that I was worried about was the aluminum frame holding up.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Reinz on July 31, 2012, 10:04:42 AM
A derringer is not typically a range gun.  Not a gun most people would put thousands of rounds in per year, much less in a lifetime.

I doubt a few hundred for that matter.

I shoot a derringer in competition some and don't believe I've shot more than 250 rounds in 5 years.
Title: Re: Titanium Frame
Post by: Reinz on July 31, 2012, 10:08:06 AM
snafu