The Rohrbaugh Forum

Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R-45 => Topic started by: flyandscuba on December 31, 2011, 12:10:04 PM

Title: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: flyandscuba on December 31, 2011, 12:10:04 PM
I wonder if the Rohrbaugh brothers have considered the 45 GAP cartridge instead of the 45 ACP for the R45??  I know...I was skeptical of the 45 GAP -- until I shot one.  I have two G39s -- and they are great CCWs.  The 45 GAP would allow for an R45 in a similar footprint as the R9.  I would buy one if they'd make it -- and since 10% of the State Police agencies in the US are now using the 45 GAP, I'm thinking there would be a good law enforcement market for the R45 "GAP" as a back-up pistol.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: mz368 on December 31, 2011, 01:00:15 PM
I second that thought.  The 45 GAP is the ACP's equal in terms of performance and has the same cartridge length, so grip length (front to rear) and barrel/slide functioning should be similar to the 9x19, and Speer makes some very nice Gold Dot loads in the caliber.  One might expect that it could be the very same footprint except perhaps for width and cartridge capacity (5+1?). 

Rohrbaugh could offer an optional stainless frame to boot which might help some recoil sensitive shooters.  Add front and rear grip strap checkering and I would be a happy camper.

I have spent range time with two Para LDA's in 45 GAP (a 3" & a 3.5") and they are very nice shooters.

Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: PsychoSword on January 07, 2012, 08:09:31 AM
I'm looking forward to the R45, but I probably wouldn't be able to buy one at least until the end of this year if not next year so it's no hurry for me. I'm getting along just fine with my old Kahr's and AMT Backup .45 for subcompact ccw. I'm hoping the R45 will excel at being a super lightweight backup weapon like the R9 does.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: flyandscuba on January 23, 2012, 06:47:26 AM
Here's the official word from Boberg Arms regarding their pocket 45 design -- and image overlays...

Reply by Arne Boberg on Thursday
I actually started working on the design of a .45 GAP two days ago - my goal is to get some 3D images out in the next few weeks. However, this gun will require a lot of investment and testing, and is at least two years out before getting to a pre-order stage - and that is IF it works. The dynamics of this much fatter cartridge will be totally different - this is not an easy undertaking.

Here is an overlay of the proposed XR45 Micro GAP (in blue) versus the XR9-S (in black) versus the Beretta Tomcat .32 in red:

The barrel length of the .45 would be 3.09".


Rohrbaugh R9S (red), Boberg XR45-Micro GAP (proposed in blue) and Rohbaugh R45S (prototype):


Rohrbaugh R9S with centered overlay on proposed XR45-Micro GAP:


Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: yankee2500 on January 23, 2012, 09:13:28 PM
I'll have to pass on a 45 GAP pistol, ammo availability is just not there and I don't see it getting better. In time the Gap will be like the 41mag and the 16 ga shotgun.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: flyandscuba on January 23, 2012, 09:19:24 PM
I have zero problem finding ammo for 45 GAP - either target/range or self defense....especially if you order from the internet.  The prices have dropped to those on par with 45 ACP as well.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: DDGator on January 23, 2012, 10:08:52 PM
Talked to Eric today and .45 GAP is not in the cards.  They are not trying to make a tiny .45, so there is no reason to go outside the mainstream.

Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: flyandscuba on January 23, 2012, 11:39:16 PM
Good to know -- thanks!
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: Robar233 on January 31, 2012, 07:58:55 PM
I would take a R45GAP in a heartbeat just to get that big of a slug in such a small package. I am so disappointed by the introduction of a tan R9 instead of an any color R45 it is not even funny. If an R45 GAP can look like and almost be the size of an R9 it will look great.
  I have to say that the looks of a pistol should keep me from buying it. But that Boberg is the ugliest pistol I have seen. No, I guess that .45ACP we dropped out of aircraft to the resistance in WWII was uglier.

Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: tracker on January 31, 2012, 08:51:59 PM
That ugly .45 dropped to the resistance might be quite valuable today. I hope it worked for them.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: flyandscuba on February 12, 2012, 12:13:35 AM
Here is a blog that Arne has started to document the development of the XR45-Micro-GAP in the event that you wish to follow the progress of a true pocket-size pistol in .45 Caliber:

In addition, here is an overlay that he has worked up -- showing the Kahr PM45 in comparison to the XR45-Micro-GAP:


A significant difference in size, don't you agree?
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: yankee2500 on February 12, 2012, 04:05:43 PM
I think it's a mistake to make the gun in the 45 GAP caliber, it lacks popularity and a small production item like the Boberg will do nothing to help that. Many shooters will avoid buying one because they don't want to add another caliber to there list and reloaders will will do the same, also ammo is not  readily available.
  It would be better in the 45acp or go with the 40 S&W which is the second most popular caliber being shot today.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: flyandscuba on February 12, 2012, 10:24:22 PM
Nope -- it's going to be 45 GAP due to the shorter OAL to make the pistol as small as possible.  If someone wants a pocket 45 and is willing to spend $1K to buy it -- they'll have no problem buying the ammo to go with it!  The GAP-haters don't like it, but the 100-year-old 45 ACP offers nothing to this particular pistol design.

The higher pressure - and corresponding higher slide velocity of the 40 S&W is not desireable either -- sorry.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: tracker on February 12, 2012, 11:05:40 PM
I don't sense that there is an overabundance of .45 G.A.P. [Glock Automatic Pistol] haters but, rather, a lack of 45 GAP lovers. In fact, Glock is the only manufacturer that still makes a pistol for the .45 GAP. This is not only an ambitious endeavor but an uphill marketing climb if it goes past the prototype stage. To date, five L.E. agencies have approved this caliber, not an overwhelming endorsement.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: yankee2500 on February 13, 2012, 12:13:00 AM
I'm not a GAP hater or lover, it is what it is, a dying breed, the GAP is like the 41mag the 16GA and the Edsel.
It may be the GAP but it's just a plain dumb idea, but companies can learn from there mistakes, if it doesn't put them out of business.
  Pretty foolish to spend 1k on a gun you will have trouble getting ammo for.
There are very few GAP shooters and I'm sure of that. ;D
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: flyandscuba on February 13, 2012, 05:41:49 AM
There is no difficulty obtaining ammunition for 45 GAP.  It even sells at prices similar to 45 ACP (see Georgia Arms) - sometimes lower.  Only 5 agencies?  I think you meant to say only 5 state agencies -- but that is 10% of the state agencies.  There are several local Florida agencies who have adopted the cartridge as well -- and I expect the same in Georgia, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, and New York where the state agencies have adopted the cartridge.

I was a 45 GAP naysayer myself -- before I shot one. It is a very nice shooting cartridge.  People have said that .357 Sig and 10mm Auto were dying cartridges as well, but yet they persist (with law enforcement agencies continuing to use both).

Will 45 GAP grow in popularity to the level 9mm, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP?  No, I don't think so.  But, those agencies (as well as non-LEO shooters) who have adopted the cartridge really do like it.

Actually, a small true pocket pistol chambered in 45 GAP may actually aid in total sales.  I remember back to the late 70s and early 80s -- when a small, lightweight all-steel 5 shot revolver created a demand for an old forgotten "cowboy" cartridge -- the 44 Special.  At the time, about the only option in bullet design was the round nose 246 gr lead bullet.  However, the demand for 44 Special -- specifically self defense ammunition in 44 Special -- created by the innovative introduction of the small Charter Arms Bulldog caused many options in self defense ammunition to be offered by most ammunition manufacturers in short order.

If the 45 GAP were truly dying, there would be very few ammunition manufacturers offering it in their product line.  Even though the Speer Gold Dot in 200gr seems to be the LEO round of choice -- the other ammo makers continue to produce the 45 GAP.

Wait until the pistol is produced and then shoot one.  After that, if you still think it is a bad idea - you can at least say that you tried it.  I dare say more LEOs will be carrying XR45-Micro-GAPs as a back-up than LEOs will be carrying the relatively large, heavy, long DAO only R45 as an IWB weapon for off duty or plain clothes work... ;)
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: yankee2500 on February 13, 2012, 09:38:01 AM
I have shot the 45GAP I had a Glock 38 & a 39 which I sold, my issue is not with how it shoots or how many State agencies use it.
  I sell brass and in the last 4 years have sorted and sold over seven thousand pounds of pistol brass, thats in the neighborhood of three quarters of a million pieces of brass and have had only 1400 pieces of GAP brass. In the last 800 pounds of brass I sorted there were 9 pieces of 45 GAP brass, how do those numbers work out in percentages ?
  This brass is from 2 public ranges and represents LOE and everyday shooters, maybe Florida shooters are big on the GAP round but NC shooters are not. These numbers tell me very few people shoot the GAP round.
 As far as a Boberg (small pocket pistol chambered in GAP) aiding in ammo sales and development, I doubt it, there production numbers and distribution will be far to small to create any waves in the ammo industry.
 After 10 years of sales the Rohrbaugh name is still unknown to many Dealers and even more individuals and Boberg is nine years behind them.
  I wish Arnie luck because he will need it.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: MRC on February 13, 2012, 10:04:11 AM
If one looks on the websites, I do not believe that availability of 45 GAP ammo is a major hurdle.  Price is entirely a different thing as the "Defense Type" can get fairly high.

If your wish is a "Pocket 45"  the 45 GAP makes some sense.

I agree that a 40 S&W would be more desirable to me.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: tracker on February 13, 2012, 10:02:19 PM

I have a beautiful 1894 Marlin 25-20 that is a joy to shoot and a work of art. The ammunition is still available but it is priced at $60 a box.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: jensenranch on February 19, 2012, 01:30:01 PM
I agree on .45ACP being way to go v GAP.  I'm fan of, in a pinch, being able to visit a hardware store, online merchant (Midway, Brownells, etc) sporting goods store, Walmart, AnyStore USA, & readily finding ammo that I can shoot.  This includes calibers like .30-06, .308, .270, 9mm, .40cal, .45 ACP, etc.  While the GAP isn't necessarily a wildcat cartridge, it doesn't fit the "when zombies attack" grab lots more ammo philosophy.  While I own a custom AR in 6.8mm Rem SPC, & it shoots like a dream, I might not have made the decision again v. .308 platform, simply based on ammo availability & it appears to be actually growing a bit of a following.  My small team opted to carry AK-47s overseas for simple reason that if we ran out of ammunition in a pinch, we knew our adversaries would leave plenty of 7.62X39 ammunition for us to use.  In that instance, NATO ammo didn't fit the zombie attack criteria any more than I don't think .45GAP does here. 
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: flyandscuba on February 19, 2012, 05:41:08 PM
I don't expect that people will be burning through cases of ammo through a small deep cover concealable pocket pistol -- thus the need for the OAL of the 45 GAP to create the smallest platform possible outweighed the supply of the 100-yr old 45 ACP ammo.

I won't even comment on the whole "zombie" craze -- as anyone buying into that fantasy regarding firearms needs more help than a quality pocket pistol can provide...  ::)
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: tracker on February 19, 2012, 07:14:55 PM

The market will  speak for the 45GAP but since the Glock 37 was introduced in 2003 the trend doesn't seem to be up even with CCW increasing in popularity. Maybe if enough people talk it up the caliber will hang around. I wish it well with neutral feelings on the pros and cons.
Title: Re: R45 in 45 GAP?
Post by: Reinz on May 14, 2012, 03:29:11 PM
I'm with FLynScuba, for me, it's about the size of the gun.  If the same ballistics can be gained from the GAP, it just makes sense.

But then, ammo is not an issue for me, I collect and shot 10mm, Auto Mags, Wildeys, and Cowboy calibers.   I can reload anything I want.

For me, It's all about size.  That's what counts.