The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Webstrands on July 24, 2012, 08:02:08 PM
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Hi,
I just purchased my first R9s Stealth. It should arrive at my FFL in 2 days. I can't wait.
I was wondering if anybody has had success with Hornady Critical Defense ammunition?
Regards,
webstrands
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Welcome aboard and a resounding "no" on the Critical Defense. Use Speer Gold Dot which has been a proven winner with the pup. I heard that the factory has been touting Federal Guard Dog recently but that is unconfirmed. There are many previous posts about Hornady as a company and their defective ammo.
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Welcome to the forum Webstrands. :)
As Tracker has stated, Speer Gold Dot is a definte winner. I also have success with 147gr Remmington Golden Sabre and Federal 147 gr Hydra Shoks as well.
For main practice, most use the Winchester White Box found at most Wal Marts. But be sure to test your carry ammo before packing. ;)
Shoot Straight
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Is the issue with ammo preference due to hammer mass? My R9S Stealth arrives tomorrow, so i can't say for sure, but I believe that I remember seeing the hammer back in a photo and it seemed to be minimal mass. Changing spring tension in the firing mechanism would increase trigger pull, but I wonder if a heavier hammer would help with the "light strike" of this pistol?
Just throwing this out to the group for your input...
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That is a good question to ask the factory. It doesn't seem to be an issue with U.S. ammo manufacturers who produce their own primers. Hornady buys primers from, "whatever source is available."
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Why bother with a firing pin spring change and probably voiding your warranty just to shoot Critical Defense ammunition, unless you get an unlimited supply for free.
There are several other excellent brands that are proven, plus you can get the Gold Dots in 50 round boxes for close to the price of a box of 20 Critical Defense. ???
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I wouldn't use Federal Gaurd Dog - it's a 105gr round that performs in ordnance gel about how 380 ACPs do...
It kind of defeats the purpose of carrying a 9mm...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA7f69skz9g
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Hornady has been known to use a harder primer than most brands, which makes CD not the best choice for us R9 owners. Gold Dot 147gr seem to work just fine for me. Winchester PDX1 is good too.
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I would confirm not using Hornaday Critical Defense ammo. I read that here yesterday prior to going to range today and it was the only ammo I had. The ammo works fine in my MagNaPorted S&W 940 revolver and my Walther PPS but it took 2 pulls of the trigger to fire about half of my rounds in Rohrbaugh. I don't think they are a "bad" company or make bad ammo the Rohrbaugh hammer strike is too light for their primers.
G
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I came across this while following other threads about ammo.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm
here's a quote from that article:
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According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition:
"...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail."
-- NRA's American Guardian TV
Thus if you carry a concealed handgun for personal defense and need to shoot from the inside of your car, through glass or sheetmetal, then you cannot rely on Hornady Critical Defense handgun ammo to perform. If you're stopped at the side of the road changing a flat tire and you're attacked, you cannot rely on Hornady Critical Defense handgun ammo to shoot through glass and sheetmetal, if that's what it takes to stop the attack.
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This sounds to me, a better reason not to use it, rather than hard primers.
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I came across this while following other threads about ammo.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm
here's a quote from that article:
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According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition:
"...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail."
-- NRA's American Guardian TV
Thus if you carry a concealed handgun for personal defense and need to shoot from the inside of your car, through glass or sheetmetal, then you cannot rely on Hornady Critical Defense handgun ammo to perform. If you're stopped at the side of the road changing a flat tire and you're attacked, you cannot rely on Hornady Critical Defense handgun ammo to shoot through glass and sheetmetal, if that's what it takes to stop the attack.
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This sounds to me, a better reason not to use it, rather than hard primers.
I think that this holds true for nearly all personal defense ammunition available to the public.
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If a round fails to fire because of a hard primer it is a moot point to discuss its effectiveness going through glass, car doors, or walls. Bonded rounds such as the Speer Gold Dot do not suffer in either category.
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If a round fails to fire because of a hard primer it is a moot point to discuss its effectiveness going through glass, car doors, or walls. Bonded rounds such as the Speer Gold Dot do not suffer in either category.
Agreed!
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I'm with the forum members who recommend sticking with Speer Gold Dot. That's all I carry, though I've (successfully) tried several mags full of most other brands of premium ammo, including Hornady Critical Defense. That said, the R9 can be finicky (little gun, little latitude for spring strength, haphazard maintenance, etc.) so why take a chance?
There were a couple of threads on Hornady C.D. when it first came on the market. I observed that all the premium ammo manufacturers except Hornady manufactured their own primers. This was back during the last "great primer shortage", and I suspect Hornady was purchasing primers wherever they could find them. I'm not dissing Hornady - they make some very good ammo - but the primer is a critical component and small manufacturers can't make 'em.
Steve
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I'll cast another enthusiastic vote for Speer Gold Dot in my pup. I have however also had zero issues with Federal Hydra Shock. I still have about 150 rounds of it, all with the same lot # so my results may differ from other users. Speer GD's have been excellent across multiple lots so far. I've never tried any Critical Defense in my R9 due to the resounding opinion of this forum.
-Adam
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Got back from a gun show yesterday and came across a new (at least to me) Hornady ammo called Critical Duty. The bullet looked like it had a more pointed profile and the red rubber plug has a "H" in it. The 9mm bullet is 135gr. Did some looking online and found a page on Hornady's website detailing the differences between the two:
http://www.hornady.com/support/critical-duty-and-critical-defense
Suppose I can pick up a couple boxes of the Critical Duty and have a try with the R9. Nice that the bullet is heavier than 124gr., but lighter than 147gr. Perhaps it offers a better balance of heavier bullet with higher velocity?
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Yah, I had read somewhere that Critical Defense
was designed for Short Barreled Guns so I picked
up a few box's. I like the bullet wight, sorta splits
the difference. Hadn't had an opportunity to
shoot it yet, though. I guess it'll just be you
(Ghost Chili) and me since everyone else on
this Forum seem to dislike Hornady ammo.
Something about primers, I think. Not sure
why the primers Hornady uses are somehow
unacceptable. Maybe someone came alluminate
it for us.
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There were/are some members that had primer strike/ignition issues with their R9's.
Some called Hornady and were not happy with the company reply.
Maybe Tracker can give his veiw. He is a real Hornady FanBoy! He runs Red through and through. I think he shoots exclusively Hornady. 8)
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I have shot Hornady Critical Defense in all my "pocket nines" and all have fired fine with normal accuracy. I did have some "fried egg" looking primers with those fired in the R9 but all went off on the first pull. I took the R9 and spent cases to my Gunsmith to check headspace as that is normally the problem. The R9's chamber was on the long side of the tolerances and the brass was on the short side of the spec which was the probable cause. Also the R9 has by far the lightest strike of any of my pistols. That is the price you pay to have the lightest and smoothest trigger pull of any hammer fired DAO pistol.
I found the Critical Defense to be a very low energy round and only available in 115 gr weights. That being I prefer the Gold Dot 124's as my carry choice.
In the 380 guns though, I feel it is a real winner as all tests I have seen it expands well even through denim so it is my choice when I carry my P380.
I have fired the Critical Duty ammo but only in the +P pressure so not in the R9. It works fine but is designed for LE who perhaps will be shooting through barriers. The tests I have seen when not fired through a barrier have expanded minimumly and over penetrated. Probably not a good choice for civilian carry.
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There have been many excellent reasons given on this forum for not using Critical Defense in the R9; not the least of which is that they don't make their own primers like the other recommended manufacturers such as Winchester, Federal, Speer, etc.. Despite the warnings about hard primers, headspace, and general incompatibility with small, light striking 9mm pistols, forum members continue to ask about using Critical Defense ammo in the R9. The remaining boxes I have left will go to the range as Glock fodder.
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Ah nuts! I tried to get a rise out of Tracker. :D
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I saw you coming on that one, Reinz, and tried to tone down how I really feel about the subject. As far as I am concerned anyone can have that ammo with the Brooklyn Bridge thrown in together. I wouldn't wear a ball cap with the Hornady name on it.
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When I had spoken with Maria Ayala at
Rohrbaugh (before I shot my PUP) she
suggested I really PULL the trigger and
not baby it with slow trigger pulls. The
potential for light trigger strikes is probably
why. Also, the Hornady Critical Duty I
had bought is 135gr bullet weight and
not 115gr. Thats what I ment when I
said it split the difference (being between
115gr and 147gr which are typical bullet
weights).
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Critical Duty and Critical Defense are two different products and you are mixing up the names. In your first post you referenced Critical Defense.
9mm Critical Defense comes only in the 115 gr standard pressure load,
9mm Critical Duty comes in 135 gr std pressure and 135 gr +P.
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Yah, I caught it, thats why I clarified it.
I usually don't catch my mistakes till its
to late to matter.
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I like and use Hornady products a lot in reloading. The 380 Critical Defense is a great carry round in my opinion, but when it comes to the short barreled 9mm's I think there are better rounds available than either the Critical Defense or the Critical Duty.
JMO
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I shot some Critical Defense today without issue.
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That is the thing about Critical Defense: one can never know for sure. Sometimes it goes bang and sometimes it goes click.
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Tracker wrote a screenplay for a movie that stared Robert Downey Jr. a few yrs ago.
It was called Critical Defense; Click, Click, Bang!Bang! ;D
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Write it? I produced and directed that movie.
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I beg your pardon sir?
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Ok, ok, I defer to Miss Derringer who front runs for Hornady and makes some of their primers in a pinch.
( edit: music video, "Click, click, bang, bang" removed by outside source and no longer available )
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Ha, Ha, that was great! 8)
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I have had 1 jam in about 250 rounds, it was a failure to eject, with my Rohrbaugh. It was with a Hornady Critical Defense.
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I just ordered some Winchester Ranger "T" Series - 147gr JHPs - RA9T
I like the way the round performs through the different barrier tests and against bare gelatin.
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
But, if for some reason I was really sold on Hornady and only wanted Hornady ammo, then I think the 135gr Critical Duty is a better round (it comes in standard pressure also as MRC noted, so it can be used in the R9)
http://www.hornady.com/store/9MM-135-gr-FlexLock-Critical-DUTY/
I'd rather have a bullet that generally penetrates to around 14" and expands to about 65 calibre, than a bullet that penetrates 15" and expands to .555" But that's my opinion...