The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Gunsmithing or Modifications for your Rohrbaugh => Topic started by: Aglifter on February 09, 2010, 03:35:07 PM
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I'm guessing just shoot it, until they get loose? I tried unscrewing them before, w.o. shooting it first, and it didn't go well.
I've decided to have some silver grips made for it -- I think I should be able to get them to fit properly, since I'm using silversmiths who regularly work on pistols. (Have to talk to them first, but I want to show them the grips. Ideally, I'd get hogue to mill them from silver -- might end up doing that, actually. (They, Lopez Bros., regularly work w. Hogue.)
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I didn't have any trouble getting the grip screws to come out. And the first time I did it was before I shot it.
Just use the short end of the allen wrench, so you have the long side for leverage.
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Yeah... I tried using a new craftsman pro allen wrench to turn it loose -- worked the first time I tried, but I broke out the screws the last time I tried. Did anyone ever find a solution for the galvanic reaction on the screws -- I'm presuming that was the source of the white powder round the screws.
I got lucky, and my 'smith managed to mill a slot in the head w.o. marking the screws. (I was not happy when Rohrbaugh said "screws aren't a warranty issue. I used the 222MS they spec'd to secure them, and used a high quality tool to attempt to remove them -- IMO, it is a design flaw -- not a big deal, as it's not that serious of one, and every product will have some, but I don't think much of their recalcitrance in addressing it.)
Would using a soldering iron to heat the screw head help? Or just cause more problems?
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The galvanic corrosion issue is an ongoing problem. In a much discussed previous thread where one of my screw heads failed at the range The R bros. extracted the failed screw and installed new ones. I strongly suggest that owners either move their screws or change them out every year or so, especially in a humid climate.
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Makes sense to me!
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I think the white powder you're finding around the grip screws is the residue from sheared thread locking compound.
Rohrbaugh told me some time ago that they use a Loctite -type thread locker on all the grip screws. That's why they're usually hard to remove the first time. The Loctite rep taught us a trick for breaking the bond - heat the fastener to a couple hundred degrees F. I just heat up my fine tipped soldering iron & touch the screw head for a few seconds. Carbon fiber and G10 are very heat resistant, so there's not much chance of damaging the two most popular grip materials. It takes over 1700 degrees F. to melt silver, so there should be no problem there, either.
BTW: I also had a screw head pop off. First trip to the range after warranty work at Rohrbaugh. Fired a dozen rounds. Put the gun back in my pocket. At home, I went to clean the guns I had fired, & noticed that the upper right grip screw head on my R9 had disappeared! Sheared right off...I didn't even bother Rohrbaugh because I had ordered some spare screws. I'm not a big fan of socket head screws. There is very little metal to take the clamping stress once a socket head recess is broached into the screw head. When I was designing fastener systems, we used socket head screws only as a last resort when there wasn't room for anything else.
Anyway, I generally check my grip screws after every range session, & use clear nail polish as a (gentle) thread locking compound.
Steve
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Steve,
Couldn't the white residue also be indicative of corrosion as Aglifter suggests? It was one clue we used to look for on carrier aircraft because corrosion was rampant in that environment.
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Tracker,
I suppose the white powder could be corrosion, and not thread sealer residue.
Just going by the most likely scenario, I'd think it's plastic:
1. If the factory uses thread locking compound on all the grip screws, there's very little place for corrosion to start.
2. The ambient conditions on a ship at sea are a lot more hostile than in a guy's pocket. Still, I've known guys who have such acidic sweat that they could rot the link pins in their wristwatches in six months. So anything's possible
The sure way to find out is to have a lab analyze a sample- if it's aluminum oxide, you have corrosion; if it's polymer then the stuff is thread locking compound.
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My answer to the galvanic corrosion issue is to remove the grips at every other cleaning or so and then spray and wipe down the lot -- frame, grip screws, and grips (if using the OD aluminimum panels instead of CFs) with Ballistol, "the ultimate survival juice." ;)
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I was thinking the same thing, Richard, except with "Corrosion X" as maybe an alternative but both should work as a preventive measure.
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Does anyone know what size screws these are?
There are some new coated screws out there that are designed to be used in salt water environments. They are better than stainless, so they say.
The coated layer should provide protection between the two metals and prevent the galvanic problem.
I'd like to see a torx screw instead of the allen.
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New screws like that are the solution but I don't see any movement that direction.
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Does anyone know what size screws these are?
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kanuist:
The material at this link may be of interest:
http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/gripscrews.htm
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A note (likely repeated elsewhere): Wiha Quality Tools, of Monticello, MN makes TONS of terrific-quality tools, included a great 1/16" handled hex wrench (Item #96316) which is perfect for removing/tightening the Rohrbaugh grip screws.
Their website is:
http://www.wihatools.com, and there is a page there which lists distributors of their products.
You can also order them online if you like.
BEWARE! Tool geeks can spend much money here!
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I have a bad habit of carrying my pup everywhere -- I have to keep after the mag plates, as I get corrosion in them on a regular basis. (The mix room is quite corrosive -- lots of sanitizers, CIP chemicals, some acidic fumes, etc. Really monel is the only thing that is completely inert in that environment.)
I normally carry my Glock in there, but usually it's one of those "I'll just stop in real quick on my way to..." things that turns into a full day dealing w. something.
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Yeah... I tried using a new craftsman pro allen wrench to turn it loose -- worked the first time I tried, but I broke out the screws the last time I tried. Did anyone ever find a solution for the galvanic reaction on the screws -- I'm presuming that was the source of the white powder round the screws.
I got lucky, and my 'smith managed to mill a slot in the head w.o. marking the screws. (I was not happy when Rohrbaugh said "screws aren't a warranty issue. I used the 222MS they spec'd to secure them, and used a high quality tool to attempt to remove them -- IMO, it is a design flaw -- not a big deal, as it's not that serious of one, and every product will have some, but I don't think much of their recalcitrance in addressing it.)
Would using a soldering iron to heat the screw head help? Or just cause more problems?
New guy here stripped one of the screws. How exactly can you get these out. What type of blade did your smith use to mill the slot? Any other ideas greatly appreciated.
Dan
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Here's a link to my own sad tale -- which fortunately ended without damage to the pistol:
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1190497569;start=10#10
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My 'smith has a full milling machine - he found the smallest flathead in his shop, then milled a cut just big enough to fit it. We managed to pop it off.
I still think this is a design flaw, and I see no reason why a more robust screw cannot be used.
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I suspect Pups are susceptible to galvanic action - that, or they're the first instance of dis-similar metals being in contact which doesn't - both due to the screws, and the corrosion issues I have w. mag plates.
Is there someone making aftermarket/replacement grips now? Might be interesting to try to mill a place to hold a zinc plate near the base of the frame...
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P.M. sent.
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My 'smith has a full milling machine - he found the smallest flathead in his shop, then milled a cut just big enough to fit it. We managed to pop it off.
I still think this is a design flaw, and I see no reason why a more robust screw cannot be used.
I agree, it would be SO easy to improve the screws.
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And - why not add one or two more to the right panel.
It Could be done without trashing it up.
It would beef it up and cut down on failure rates for sure.
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I'd like to see Rohrbaugh switch from the #3-48 screw to a #4-40. I have only been able to find replacements in the stock Allen, phillips and slotted.
#4's come in Torx! (Tork/Star)
It is pretty typical in the knife industry to only use even numbered screws as they are available in greater variety.
I stripped two of my grips screws when I went to install new grips. It wasn't fun to remove them, but it was far from easy.
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I started to remove the grips but the screws were so tight I decided against it until I buy a soldering iron to preclude the stripping trauma.
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I just purchased a hex head screwdriver made by a company called "Hudy." I purchased it from an RC hobby shop online. The head measures .063". Each tip is individually precision ground.
My pup #613 had screw heads slightly distorted during installation and the numerous allen wrenches I have tried did not fit well and I was afraid to apply enough torque on the screws to loosen them.
This screwdriver works!
Althoug pricey at $24.00 with shipping I highly recommend this item.
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Good tip and cheap compared to the alternative. As I recall Richard had something like that.
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Hudy makes some excellent precision tools:
http://www.hudy.net/flash_stuff/all_in/index.htm
As does Bondhus:
http://www.bondhus.com/products/body-0.htm
I've learned the hard way that cutting corners on the cost of a tool can eventually cost more by a quantum factor than the cost of purchasing the right tool in the first place.
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precision tools:
As does Bondhus:
http://www.bondhus.com/products/body-0.htm
I've learned the hard way that cutting corners on the cost of a tool can eventually cost more by a quantum factor than the cost of purchasing the right tool in the first place.
+ 1
I took Richards advice about 2 years ago on the Bondus hex drivers with the ball hex end.
I now have duplicates sets for each of my machines in my shop for work which I use daily.
I use them so much the wording is worn off of the handles.
They are the best!
Thanks Rich!
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Mort,
I just ordered the same Hudy tool from A Main Hobbies for $20 and change shipped. Thanks for the lead.
http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/89_140/products_id/8367/n/Hudy-US-Standard-Allen-Wrench-1-16-x-120mm
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This looks like a very high quality tool. The description does not state whether the bit can be replaced. Looks like there might be a set screw for securing a replaceable bit.
Can any of you with one of these Hudy drivers confirm whether the the bit is replaceable or not?
Craig T.
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Ahhh, I just saw on the Hudy home screen a photo of the tool with a caption that says "EASY TIP REPLACEMENT".
I guess that answers my question.
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"Amainhobbies" is very efficient and user friendly to order items from their Chico Ca. facility by phone.
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Now, armed with my $20 driver and $15 soldering iron I can approach my fifty cent loctite screws with a modicum of confidence.
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OK - here's a Situational Awareness test - what's strange about this picture (and why did I post it in this thread)?
(http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo186/JR956678/black-pup.jpg)
OK - you should have noticed that the grip screws are black not "silver / stainless" in color.
Looks cool - especially on the Stealth. But there's more to this than just black screws.
I had noticed that on the Rohrbaugh Firearms Accessory list they showed silver screws AND black screws. I had called Maria to order some recoil springs and asked her what the difference is and she said "Well - the black ones are just black because some owners wanted black". I wasn't sure that was all there was to it so I ordered a set in black; they arrived today. And - the differences are more than just skin deep.
The standard silver screws are non-magnetic stainless steel - as might be expected. Stainless is great for corrosion resistance but it really is a terrible material to make a threaded fastener out of - it's soft and can't be hardened very well (unless it's got a lot of carbon in it in which case it will rust) and it creeps (get's longer when under tension - like taffy or sealing wax) so it gets loose.
The black screws are magnetic - which means they are some sort of steel alloy, which is usually what hex head cap screws are made of. I would guess they are substantially harder AND tougher than the silver screws AND that it would be a lot less likely that a hex wrench would round out the socket and require drilling out the screw. The fit of the socket was very tight - way tighter than the silver screws so much less chance of rounding out the socket trying to remove the screw.
The biggest downside I can see to the black screws is that they would probably rust if not periodically oiled - but that should not be too big a problem and they are cheap enough to replace if they rust. It may be a worthwhile trade-off.
I'm also investigating some special high torque hex keys - if the manufacturer's claim is right they can generate 20% more torque without rounding out the screw, and they are laughably cheap. I'll post more when I verify the source (they are imported from Germany). My "quest" is to make grip screws as much of a non-issue as possible.
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I am with you on the quest to neutralize the apparent weak link on the R9 and that is the puny screws. The Hudy driver arrived today and it is very high quality. We shall see.
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When tightening the grip screws you should have the long leg of the allen wrench in the screw and tighten with the short leg.
Exerting too much torque on this size screw can either snap off the head or strip the threads in the Aluminum frame, neither a good situation. This is why Loctite is recommended by the factory.
John
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That is excellent advice, John. My problem has not been the going in part but in the unscrewing because of the factory installed loctite and, in addition, the apparent corrosion related screw head failure. The loose screw issue is easily checked and remedied.
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Exerting too much torque on this size screw can either snap off the head or strip the threads in the Aluminum frame, neither a good situation. This is why Loctite is recommended by the factory.
Yep.
Any idea if the factory has ever set a torque spec on the screws? Or uses a torque driver to tighten them?
JR
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Short answer: no.
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Short answer: no.
Thought that might be the case.
I really can't see an owner buying a torque driver just to maintain the firearm either. That would be really hard core ...
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I have never seen a torque spec on the Rohrbaugh site or here on the forum.
tracker I knew of your problem, and my response was in regards to JRs post about the high torque drivers.
"I'm also investigating some special high torque hex keys - if the manufacturer's claim is right they can generate 20% more torque without rounding out the screw, and they are laughably cheap. I'll post more when I verify the source (they are imported from Germany). My "quest" is to make grip screws as much of a non-issue as possible."
John
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My problem has not been the going in part but in the unscrewing because of the factory installed loctite and, in addition, the apparent corrosion related screw head failure.
That's been my biggest fear as well. The first time I removed the grips I really really didn't want to - but when I did I actually found that 3 of the 4 screws had shot loose. Today when I changed out for the black screws I hadn't shot since I put them in with fresh Loctite (Blue) but they came loose without any undue force.
It's my understanding that the factory uses Type 242 (Blue) Loctite on the screws and that's really only specified for screws 1/4" and larger - Type 222 (Purple) is for small screws. But since the Blue can shoot loose I can readily imagine that the Purple would be worse. The downside is removing the screws if they don't shoot loose. That's why I find the black screws interesting - alloy steel is much tougher than stainless.
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The real answer lies in a better design and not in the band-aid remedies. Thanks for the black screw observation.
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JR. The black screws do make the Stealth more Stealthy looking, a term John used in another post. Looks really good.
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Looks really good.
I think so too. Sometimes you think something is going to be good but when you actually try it you find you don't like it. In this case the black grip screws look even better in person than they do in the picture (to my eye anyway).
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I don't know if you've thought about it, but the Hogue extreme grips would really set it off even more, at least, to me; $69.95 from the Rohrbaugh store. Excellent grips!
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There was a member offering after market black screws at one time, before Rohrbaugh had them, and that is were I got mine. They look better with the black CF grips than the silver screws did.
John
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I liked your term, John; more Stealthy! ;)
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I think so too. Sometimes you think something is going to be good but when you actually try it you find you don't like it. In this case the black grip screws look even better in person than they do in the picture (to my eye anyway).
JR;
The black screws look "Stealthy"! Now the search for black Torx "Stealthy" screws begins. ;D
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If they were pink and went easy in and easy out and stayed firmly intact at the range I would jump on them. Stealthy is as stealthy does.
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"Now the search for black Torx "Stealthy" screws begins".
Save your time, I have looked and no one stocks them in that size with a Torx head . I found a company that would make the Torx screws that would fit the R9, but the minimum order was 5000 pieces @ $ .69 each :o :o The size of the grip screw is an odd one and many places don't even carry it.
John
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John;
Thanks for the info. That my friend, saves me a lot of wasted time.
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Some additional information - you all may recall my comments about black grip screws.
Well today I got to the range with the pup for the first time since installing the black screws. While I didn't shoot quite as many rounds as I did the first range session, I checked the grip screws just now. While the first range session managed to loosen up 3 out of 4 screws, after the second range session, all 4 screws are tight. While I know I could remove them (because I removed two night before last and while they were tight I could easily break them free with no visible damage to the hex sockets) I see no need to - the lube is still fresh and the area is clean so there's no need to.
I consider it an improvement that the screws stayed tight - as they should.
I am also working on what might be a better hex key for pup screws; I just received an order this morning and want to figure out a way to quantify and verify the manufacturer's claims for the tool - they claim that it can supply 20% more torque without rounding out the screw socket than standard hex key designs. If true (and it sounds a little bit hard for me to believe) then it could represent not only a cheap but a better solution - regardless of whether stainless or black grip screws are used.
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JR:
That all sounds good. Please let us know the results of that hex key venture.
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Tracker,
Glad to hear you got the Hudy. That's the same place I got mine.
You have probably allready tried it. If not, make sure the set screw on the handle is tight and engaging the flat spot on the blade. Mine was not and did not.
Great little tool!
Mort
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Thanks, Mort. I haven't used it yet because I just received the screws from John this week. That is very timely advice and I appreciate it.
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I have a set of VZ grips on the way for my pup. Is there anything I should know about before removing the factory grips? Anything gonna pop out at me? Any tricks I should know about while the grips are off? Thanx much for any help! P.S. I'm glad I went with the Rohrbaugh. I've put around 100 rounds at the range and never had a single mishap. It's good to know this WILL go bang if I need it to!
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silvertaby. Welcome to the Forum. Glad you like your R9 and thanks for sharing your range results. I'll let others describe grip removal as I've never removed mine. Best to hear it from the relm of experience.
(http://s575.photobucket.com/albums/ss197/kjtrains/Welcome-1-1.gif)
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silvertaby:
Welcome to the Forum!
When you remove the grips, nothing is going to go flying across the room but the trigger spring and transfer bar may be dislodged. The photographs at this link to Chris's FAQ Site show how they should be positioned:
http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/r9-detail-pics.htm
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Wow, Thanx for the Welcome and those pics! Outstanding. Looks like I might put a touch of Gun Butter in a few places on the trigger mechanism... Talk about simple innards. Maybe that's why this bad boy is so reliable! I really like this forum. Gives newbies like me some valuable info! Larry P.S. I am waiting on the Black Cherry grips for my standard R9s (R4675)
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silvertaby, welcome to the campfire, go slow and learn. Tom
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The problem of dissimilar metals has been around ever since alcoa aluminum first came out with the frames for the Hi Standard pistols in the late '40's. It isn't new. Colt of course on their own designs used grip escutcheons of steel that were held into the frame by staking and yet some well meaning owners always seem to torque the screw down so that the escutcheons come out with the screws still in them and the grips are then removed. There is a solution, take heart.
People who work on aluminum engines in vehicles learned years ago that steel bolts and aluminum blocks, heads etc would weld themselves together creating a variety of unwanted problems. Mechanics then were treated to products like "Never Seize" now a Permatex product called "advanced anti seize lubricant" which is graphite based. There is another copper based product I use on firearms which is NAPA C 5 A anti seize compound that comes in a small tube. I use a toothpick to apply just a dab to the threads on frames and I tend to use it whether it's dissimilar metals or not, just to make sure the screws always come loose without damage to threads or heads. I've done that for years out of habit. Just remember that this material may show up as small dots on magazine sides if you overindulge. A Q tip up inside will solve that. Don't wipe it off on your pants because it can cause permanent staining to them. Use a rag and wash it off your hands before you start something else because it transfers to everything. But it does work.
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Thanks for the suggestion on the anti seize compound, I will look for it. Almost two years have passed since I had a screw head failure at the range. Many of you may recall that I returned it to the factory and they returned it to me on 06/11/09. Richard suggested moving the screws on a periodic basis to help prevent dissimilar metal corrosion. I attempted to do that about 6 months ago but the screws were on so tight from the loctite compound applied by Rohrbaugh that my Eklind folding ball hex allen wrench would not budge them without excessive force which I didn't do because of fear of stripping the screws. Fortunately, some good things happened here on the forum that have answered my screw issues. John sent me some of his excellent high quality black screws which were installed yesterday. In doing this I used the Hudy hex driver, .063", suggested by Mort and also heated the screws as a result of SSlater's, Steve, suggestion to use a soldering iron. This was the first time I had removed the grips myself in over 6 years. Naturally, I encountered the same sear trigger bar spring popping off as others have here. A small flat screwdriver opened the coil enough to reinstall the spring. The Hudy tool and the screw heating were key in removing the tight screws. The only residue I noticed on the old screws was from sheared thread locking compound. Just thinking about this experience has bothered me for awhile. Thanks to John, Mort, Steve, and Richard's excellent advice I am now a happy camper about screws. I put just a touch of Corrosion X on the new screws.
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Good info there, tracker. Hope all goes well in the next or so range sessions. I'm sure they will as you've used precautions.
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Thanks for the suggestion on the anti seize compound, I will look for it. Almost two years have passed since I had a screw head failure at the range. Many of you may recall that I returned it to the factory and they returned it to me on 06/11/09. Richard suggested moving the screws on a periodic basis to help prevent dissimilar metal corrosion. I attempted to do that about 6 months ago but the screws were on so tight from the loctite compound applied by Rohrbaugh that my Eklind folding ball hex allen wrench would not budge them without excessive force which I didn't do because of fear of stripping the screws. Fortunately, some good things happened here on the forum that have answered my screw issues. John sent me some of his excellent high quality black screws which were installed yesterday. In doing this I used the Hudy hex driver, .063", suggested by Mort and also heated the screws as a result of SSlater's, Steve, suggestion to use a soldering iron. This was the first time I had removed the grips myself in over 6 years. Naturally, I encountered the same sear trigger bar spring popping off as others have here. A small flat screwdriver opened the coil enough to reinstall the spring. The Hudy tool and the screw heating were key in removing the tight screws. The only residue I noticed on the old screws was from sheared thread locking compound. Just thinking about this experience has bothered me for awhile. Thanks to John, Mort, Steve, and Richard's excellent advice I am now a happy camper about screws. I put just a touch of Corrosion X on the new screws.
Thank you, Tracker. That trick about heating the screws with a soldering iron is one for the "personal reference manual."
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silvertaby, welcome to the group. If good information on the R9 is what you want, you came to the right place. :D
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Amazon has the same 1/16 hex driver "Wiha 26316 Precision Screwdriver, Hex Inch, 1/16 x 50mm" mentioned before for $4.77 including shipping. http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-26316-Precision-Screwdriver-Inch/dp/B000O5ILMU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1304654363&sr=8-2
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At that price, I've ordered one as a spare. Thank you for the notice, Joe!
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Yeah, that hex driver and a bit of blue Loctite, and you are set. It would be nice not to have to tighten the grip screws after every magazine shot.
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That's the one I have, but this is at half the price. Think I'll order another as well. Thanks.
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yeah, now that you mention it, i should have ordered two, one for my shooting crap bag, and one for my cleaning bench.
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My Wiha hex driver arrived. It is a quality tool made in Germany. Thank's again for the heads up, Joe.
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Got my tracking info from Amazon and says my Wiha should arrive May 13. This is fast shipping. Appreciate the info, Joe.
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Me, too. What a deal.
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I'd like to see a torx screw instead of the allen.
I can tell you don't own a jeep. Anyone with a jeep would never wish for Torx screws for anything in their life.
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Well, got the Wiha hex in the mail today; Amazon sent the wrong one and it was damaged to the point of unusable; called customer service and they are sending another. This was just for a spare, anyway.
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I can tell you don't own a jeep. Anyone with a jeep would never wish for Torx screws for anything in their life.
Or - Just either or
In a world of hex srews and bolts, you get a torx head that some idot replaced in a spot that you can not SEE, that sure can RUIN your whole day trying to fiqure that one out!
i.e., trying to remove a torx head with a hex wrench because you can not see the damn thing.
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It is just that the torx heads on wranglers always manage to get stripped and you usually have to use a left hand drill bit with the drill in reverse to get them loose, unless they are rusted bumper bolts, then you torch them out. What a mess. I hate torx bolts.
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Permit me to state for the record that I also HATE torx-head screws/bolts and replace every damned one of the things I find on any piece of my gear or other "stuff."
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Permit me to state for the record that I also HATE torx-head screws/bolts and replace every damned one of the things I find on any piece of my gear or other "stuff."
Great advice.
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Wooha on the Wiha. Combined with John's excellent alloy screws, the Hudy, and/or the Wiha the R9 screws are no longer an issue for me.