The Rohrbaugh Forum

Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Gunsmithing or Modifications for your Rohrbaugh => Topic started by: DDGator on May 21, 2004, 06:24:04 PM

Title: No "fluff and buff" required -- I hope
Post by: DDGator on May 21, 2004, 06:24:04 PM
Those of you who frequent KTOG and KTRange will know what I am talking about.  Kel-Tec guns can sometimes need (maybe need is too strong a word) some gentle fluffing and buffing out of the box for maximum performance.  Mine never did -- and ran 100% out of the box -- but detailed instructions are available on all the home-made mods you can do.

I don't think Rohrbaughs will need that kind of "attention to detail" work.

But -- I bet here is all kinds of cool custom work that could be done.  Mill in some night sights, some hi-tech finishes...

Any ideas?
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: packin_heat on May 21, 2004, 06:33:36 PM
heres what im thinkin..."melt" the slide just to smooth it a bit more, mill in some mini nite sites, mabey some "fish scale" grips on the slide, port the barrel. and some carbon fiber laser grips would make it sweet.   im gettin all frisky just thinking about it  ;D
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: RJ HEDLEY on May 21, 2004, 07:22:00 PM
I know I won't be able to leave mine alone !  First will be a slight *De-horn*  

Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: MurrayNevada on May 21, 2004, 08:51:35 PM
I've done the F&B with all of my Kel-tecs and enjoyed doing it.  I don't plan to do it to my soon to arrive R9s.  For the cost I'm hoping for the fit & finish of my Ed Brown, or close to it.  Mr. Hedley what is the difference in your "standard" and "limited" holsters for this pistol?  What are the advantages and disadvantages of each.

Thanks
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: GeorgeH on May 21, 2004, 11:37:46 PM
You will not need to fluff and buff. The workmanship is unreal. More of a custom gun than a production one.

But I do miss my Gutter Snipe sights.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: R9SCarry on May 23, 2004, 11:36:45 PM
I'm with George here .. this gun arrives ready to rock .... once you inspect re fit and finish I think you'll see where I'm comin from.  In fact I think it would be a mistake to do anything ..... let alone perhaps voiding your warranty.

To be honest I cannot so far think of one thing I want to add or change on my R9S .... it is ...... complete.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: GeorgeH on May 24, 2004, 08:16:24 AM
Think of a Kel Tec as a KIA and a Rohrbaugh like a Rolls Royce. The difference in fit and finish is that different. The only thing Rohrbaugh didn't due is to jewel the parts.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: Mr_Jody_Hudson on May 27, 2004, 01:39:51 AM
The REASON Eric and Karl are working those terribly long hours getting these pistols out, is that they are each one, hand fitted to MORE exacting tollerances than a production gun by far.  Then one of them tests each gun, and only when they FEEEEEL it is as close to perfect as possible does it go out the door.

I thought my trigger was fabulous when I shot it in PA... but it was a LOT better when I got it.  I called and asked, it was just not quite a perfect enough version of smoooooth for them, so they worked it over again before I got it.

To get an idea of the trigger, take a stick of butter out of the refrigerator, unwrap it and set it out for a half hour.  Then  with the tip of your finger, drawl an inch long line down the stick of butter with a light touch... that is what the trigger feels like... like moving through warmed butter!   :o
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: wilco on May 27, 2004, 03:04:07 PM
For the price, it certainly should have a touch or two "extra".  Since most attacks occur in poor light, not having luminous sight inserts is pretty silly, on a ccw pc.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: DDGator on May 27, 2004, 03:07:37 PM
Honestly, I have high night sights on several guns and never liked them much.  I find them much harder to use in the daytime and dusk-like conditions that regular three dot white sights.

Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: R9SCarry on May 27, 2004, 04:10:30 PM
Jody's trigger description is spot on ... I'm not so sure mine isn't even sweeter since that first try at PA shoot.

Almost amazes me that with the trigger the way it is .... there is enough pin energy to fire off the primer .... but it does!!
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: DDGator on May 27, 2004, 04:36:54 PM
Stop it -- you guys are killing me...   :'(
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: wilco on May 27, 2004, 05:40:31 PM
By "use it in daylight" do you mean getting superfast hits at 10 ft and less? Cause that's the reality of 90|+% of justifiable civilian self defense. I fail to see how luminous inserts hurt such shooting at all. Not being able to see your sights, however, can really hurt you at such ranges.

Under lethal stress conditons, your body "dumps' adrenalin, and that ruins the fine neuromuscular "feedback" that you need for effective pointshooting with a pistol.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: DDGator on May 27, 2004, 05:48:09 PM
Your response seems contradictory to me.  Why are sights more important at night than during the day?

I shoot IPSC nearly every week, and I always (unless I screw up) see my front sight before I pull the trigger -- even when shooting 36 or more rounds, under stress, with 5 reloads and moving 75 feet -- all in less than a minute.  

I find that the night sights are less visible to me than a solid white dot on the front site.

For purely defensive shooting at close ranges, I think instinctive point shooting is the same whether you can see the sights or not -- and you probably won't look for them.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: wilco on May 27, 2004, 07:36:23 PM
u can't MISS seeing good luminous sights at night. IPSC RARELY fires any shots as close as 10 ft, and 10 ft is about max range for justifiable civilian self defense, and yes, you sure can miss the chest, repeatedly, at 6 ft or so, if you dont have some sort of sight reference.  In daylight, you have at LEAST the silohuette of your hands and the gun as a rough "sighting tool". At night, you have nothing of the kind.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: DDGator on May 28, 2004, 12:13:07 AM
Its a matter of preference I suppose.  But -- I don't agree that you have no reference points at night.  I suppose if you are in total darkness -- but if I am in total darkness I would be hard pressed to shoot a target I couldn't identify anyway.  There is normally some ambient light.   You might not see black sights to get a sight picture, but you can look down the barrel of the gun.

The only time I would be in even near total darkness would be in my house at night, and then I would pick up my Surefire at the same time as my handgun.

I also disagree that you can't have a justifiable civilian shoot at much more than 10 feet.  It all depends on the circumstances.  If someone points a gun at me and they are 25 feet away -- no problem.  Hell, if they are charging with a knife 25 feet away -- still no problem.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: GeorgeH on May 28, 2004, 12:27:32 AM
In real life, night sights are superfluous. I've had a gun drawn against me in anger 4 times. The range was under 4 feet.

In fact, the folks at Rohrbaugh had the right idea when they designed the gun without sights, but what you need and what the public wants are not always the same.

We all want the adjustable wrench--one tool that can do it all, but that just isn't possible.



Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: wilco on May 28, 2004, 09:12:51 AM
You are out of your MIND not to have sights. You can easily have to pull head shots, around cover,for instance. Even at a "mere"  6 ft,under lethal stress, sights are a big help for such.

You shoot somebody with a knife (not start the draw, but FIRE) at 20+ ft,  and you are at serious risk of going to prison, for "excessive use of force". You are also at risk of being sued for everything you own, and every dime you ever make, after the criminal case is over. You are likely to have to spend  $100,000 to defend yourself in court for having done such a thing. First criminal court,then civil court.

I have met Dennis Tueller, and what cops can get away with, and what you can get away with, are two very different things. If you had beaten a downed man with a club, where would you be? If you had fired 15+rds at a manwho had no weapon, was no threat to you, and killed him, where would you be, hmm? the cops who beat King, and killed Aialo, are not in prison, but a civilian sure would be. cops are defended in court by the city attorney, for free,or by a Patrolmen's Associationlawyer, also at no cost to the cop. Lawyers who are worth a hoot get about $1000 an hour, bud.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: MurrayNevada on May 28, 2004, 09:50:52 AM
Wilco:
I agree with almost everything you have said EXCEPT that even very good attorneys are NOT billing at $1,000.00 per hour.  Not yet anyway!
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: DDGator on May 28, 2004, 02:15:25 PM
Wilco,

I am not sure if you are talking to George or me or both...

I wouldn't personally want a gun with no sights, but I don't find it crazy... depending on the intended use of the gun.

I do know my way around the legal system and I have a few comments on the rest of what you said.  You are too broadly generalizing statements about criminal or civil liability based upon distances.  Can I shoot someone in self-defense at 25 feet if they are charging me with a knife?  I sure think so.  I don't need Johnnie Cochran for that.  I have about 1-2 seconds before that knife plunges into my chest.  Anyone charging at me -- especially knowing I am pointing a gun at them -- intends to do me serious bodily harm.  I see no problem with an acquittal.  What about the gun at 25 feet?  That is a no-brainer.  You can't put a distance limitation on justified self-defense -- it all depends whether a jury of your peers think you were reasonably in fear for your life.  I think for dramatic effect I would have a witness charge at the jury box from across the courtroom waving a knife in the air.  I bet they feel my pain.

I don't believe that cops necessarily get easier treament.  Cops get some leeway for having to inject themselves into violent situations, but are generally held to a higher standard.  They are agents of the government who are supposed to know better -- not innocent civilians being beaten for sport because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  The whole "jack booted thugs" anti-police mentality runs strong in America.

Civil suits are an unpleasant reality.  However -- lawyers don't pursue civil suits unless there is a deep pocket.  If you are not insured, and not particularly wealthy, there is little incentive to come after you.  The vast majority of people in this country are nearly judgment-proof for all practical purposes -- after you exclude marital assets, homestead property, retirement accounts, etc.  If you are rich enough to be a target, you have the money for the defense, and it will likely be the least of your worries.  At least you are alive to deal with it.  

Some of the best lawyers in Florida charge around $400 per hour.  The very best lawyers in America (like constitutional scholar and Professor Lawrence Tribe) may get something near $1000 per hour -- or at least say they do.

There is life after the civil suit.  How is OJ doing?
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: wilco on May 28, 2004, 07:24:31 PM
you THINK OJ's trial DIDN't cost  100mill $? :-) they may not BILL $1000 an hour, but they LIE a lot about how many hours were spent on what, (and on who's case) so the effect is $1000 an hour.

you may THINK that you'd have no problem with an acquittal, but plenty of guys are doing time who had a BETTER case, too. After the criminal acquittal comes the civil case.  Many a guy who THOUGHT he was judgement proof found OUT that lawyers would try his home insurance, all kinds of crap.

Just let that charging knife weilder be a minority kid, with several such shootings, or a tough political fight going on, and you become the scapegoat-testcase-sacrificial lamb.  
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: GeorgeH on May 28, 2004, 09:50:05 PM
Hell I'm a bargain at $180 an hour.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: GeorgeH on May 28, 2004, 09:52:48 PM
If I need to use sights, I'll use my Glock 36.

My Rohrbaugh is a belly gun. A hide-away weapon.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: DDGator on May 29, 2004, 12:39:31 AM
Wilco,

OJ was just an example that people can survive the civil suit and still golf the rest of their lives.  You can't compare the costs of defense of a high-profile celebrity double homicide in cold blood to a self-defense shoot.  Whatever it cost OJ, he apparently could afford it.  I doubt it was $100 million, because I don't think OJ ever had that kind of money.

Give me a documented example of someone doing hard time in prison over a shoot that was a reasonable case of self defense -- or lets just agree to disagree.  Do you read the column that appears in the American Rifleman every month detailing all the good shoots that go down in the country without prosecution?  Preaching gloom and doom about the hazzards of lawful self-defense only feed the anti-gun movement.

If my homeowners insurance provides coverage -- some might -- so what?  That just gives me a free lawyer to defend my interests up to the policy limits -- which is what they are after anyway.

I am sorry if you had a bad experience with lawyers -- I think you are really going out on a limb to say lawyers lie about their time to get a net rate of $1000 per hour.  Lawyers can't get money you don't have -- and who could afford that?  There are plenty of good lawyers who work at very reasonable rates--they have to.  Its a free market for legal services too.  The lawyers are not the problem.

And finally I gotta fall back on the old adage -- I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.  
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: RJ HEDLEY on May 30, 2004, 01:03:45 AM
" Preaching gloom and doom about the hazzards of lawful self-defense only feed the anti-gun movement."  DD Gator

I agree with Gator on this.  
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: GeorgeH on May 30, 2004, 01:30:57 AM
Ditto.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: wilco on June 05, 2004, 01:22:24 PM
u really THINK that the NRA would publish cases where the use of a gun resulted in disaster?  :-) What a laugh. All you have to do to find such cases is ask Massaad Ayoob. He's documented plenty of them, and plenty more  where $50,000 plus of legal and other expenses were the ONLY reason a guy wasn't sent to prison, and many, many more where such expenses were the only reason a guy wasn't sued into financial oblivion.   You can call it "doom and gloom" if you WANT, but if you actually put a BULLET in somebody, what I said is the reality of the situation, in most people's locale. The heaviest population centers are the same as the highest crime ratios.

If just "bluffing" with the gun suffices, what need do you have of an $800 Rorbaugh, hmm?  A $200 M21 Beretta is just as effective at bluffing.  5" long, 11 ozs, 8x as cheap to practice-with, too.
Title: Re: No "fluff and buff" required -- I ho
Post by: DDGator on June 21, 2004, 11:55:58 PM
By popular demand, I will have the last word on this topic, and re-lock this thread.  I will leave the thread here in case there are any questions about what happened.