Selecting your defensive round for your pistol

[flintsghost]

I don't really consider the Winchester Silvertips inferior.  If the Rohrbaughs recommend it and it shoots flawless for my R9, I'm good to go.    

You pay your money and you take your choice.  I think that Rohrbaugh's recommendation is based solely on accuracy groups up close.   And that's fine.    The accuracy value of the silvertip loads in the FBI tests is good but the in target bullet performance is where it falls short.   .38 Spec STHP and the .380 STHP and a 10mm Buffalo round are the only rounds I've seen that have a minus or negative wound value.  The FBI lab doesn't test a lot of .380 and I was surprised it was even there but I mentioned it because I know there are people who carry it.  

I would agree with most of the .40 detractors and didn't like carrying it when it was an issue sidearm.  Accuracy was poor and I was never sure of bullet performance.   We carried 180 grain Speer Gold Dot on duty.  Our issue weapons were S&W 4006 and 4013's.  After I retired they switched to S&W M&P's.
I tried a lot of ammo in my HK P2000SK .40 until I stumbled on the Rem Golden Sabre 165 bonded at the suggestion of a friend who at that time was running the FBI ballistic lab.  I found it to be exceptionally good in accuracy rivaling some of the best in my stable.   Later I obtained some Speer GD 165 and found it was nearly as good.   The other Speer rounds and everthing I tried from Federal in all weights were terrible.  But the Golden Sabre bonded and non bonded shot beautifully.  Bonded gives slightly better performance but the non bonded shoots to same point of impact with same accuracy so it's good for practice.   The Speer GD 165 is easier to find and a tad cheaper in bulk and the difference in group isn't much.   All the other rounds were lucky to keep it on a pie plate at 15 whereas with the GD and GS 165 I can keep them in a large silver dollar at 25 off a sandbag for 5 shots.    

With regard to the 10mm I tried it in a 1076 FBI pistol I had and in a 610 revolver.   In the revolver it would make a really good hunting round.   In the 1076, you better make your first one the best you got because your adversary would shoot 2 or 3 before you recovered.  Unnecessarily powerful wasn't the word.   I have .41 and .44 mags that don't take that long to recover that I use for backpacking and hiking.   It's terrible for a defensive round.    It was Jeff Coopers idea for the Bren 10 and sounds good in theory but never panned out.  Even the FBI abandoned it.

[kjtrains]

You pay your money and you take your choice.  I think that Rohrbaugh's recommendation is based solely on accuracy groups up close.   And that's fine.    

I'm still good to go.  Thanks!

[tracker]

Thanks for all of the excellent in depth ammunition information. The wide gap in price between Silvertips and GDs doesn't seem to square with the ballistics and performance comparisons.

[yankee2500]

I don't really consider the Winchester Silvertips inferior.  If the Rohrbaughs recommend it and it shoots flawless for my R9, I'm good to go.    

I know you have had perfect function in your pup with the Silvertips but function is only half the battle.
  A gun companies job is to sell guns that work and will recommend the ammo that makes there gun work most consistently, there job is not bullet performance and ballistics.

If the gun works perfect and the bullet performance is sub par, for me that means I won't carry it.

[COLOR="Red"]The Silvertip rounds in the original FBI tests scored medium for accuracy, below the then new Federal Hydrashok and Gold dot was not even out.  For wound efficiency they scored so low in .380 that they fell into the minus category (less effective than throwing rocks). [/COLOR]

   In light of these test results I won't carry Silvertips in my 380 Seecamp anymore. I haven't carried them in my pup as I prefer a heavier bullet.

[kjtrains]

I'll continue to use the Silvertips in the R9, however, since I have the Federal Hydrashocks for the Seecamp .380, will go to that round for carry.

I do, usually, prefer the heavier bullet.    

[flintsghost]

I just put the info out.  Until silvertips were mentioned I hadn't pulled out the FBI books and it had been so long since I had looked at them I had to brush the dust just to find them.  I really didn't have any idea how they had done in the tests.    So I just put the info out there for those who would like to know.    I don't mind the 9mm and I like the Rohrbaugh R9S for a lot of reasons.   Most of the time I carry a .45 because Colt don't make a .46, and the 1911 system is still my favorite.  

I had an acquaintance who was shot and killed with a 9mm and the person had it loaded with some kind of full metal jacket european machine gun ammo.  It didn't perform at all, but it bounced off a rib internally according to the medical examiner, penetrated the heart and moved a few times internally.   The victim didn't die on the spot and probably had he been armed would have shot his assailant.  He did die shortly thereafter on his way to the hospital.   He was bleeding internally so fast that IV's wouldn't keep him going.  When that happened I began wondering about bullet performance called terminal ballistics in the target.  

I personally like the bigger is better theory and that's the best thing about a .45.   If hardball doesn't get a kill it will definitely get a stop.   When I was teaching shoot don't shoot and we had active scenarios running on film, cadets would exit the vehicle to exchange fire with the perpetrators and in one scenario exited the vehicle to shoot a man charging the car with a double bitted cruiser axe.   They got bad  grades from me for those when they did that.   If I'm sitting in a patrol car in those scenario's I drop it in drive and floor it because it's the biggest projectile available.  You can strain someone through a grill a lot easier than trying to shoot them.  One simply must stop a perpetrator from continuing to place people in danger.   That is the purpose of deadly force.  

I do truly believe one can do what ever makes them happy.  I am now convinced I should zerox the relevant pages from that particular volume and send them to Maria and have them read how and why the tests are done and see those results.  My suspicion is that their information exchange might change after that.    We'll see.   I think those people are pretty smart to come up with the product.   It's just that recommendations like this are not normal for firearms manufacturers.   SIG and HK won't advise you on what ammo to use, only on the pressure rating type that is possible and nearly every manufacturer will say that reloads void your warranty.   When someone recommends a specific type i.e. silvertips as a gun maker, then they cross over into the liability area which in a very litigious society that we have is not a real good idea.

[yankee2500]

Seecamp also has recommended ammo.
   They recommend a particular brand or two because the vast majority of the guns they produce function well on those brands and may not be as reliable with others. My pup has had no problem with any brand or bullet weight, but others have not had the same results.

[kjtrains]

All in all, good stuff.  We all have to decide which is best.  I do love the big rds. and with the exception of the R9, the bigger the grain the more I like it, all the way to the 700 gr. 500 mag; as the instructions say, hang on.  

[MRC]

A very good discussion.  I am a big 10 mm fan so I read the FBI report with a lot of interest.  
A couple of questions that I have:
    - Is there a newer report out that is available to the public?
    - The silvertips at that time were way behind the hydro-shoks and Gold Dots design wise.  Have they been upgraded  at all through the years to get more cosistant expansion or are they still way behind?

[flintsghost]

A very good discussion.  I am a big 10 mm fan so I read the FBI report with a lot of interest.  
A couple of questions that I have:
    - Is there a newer report out that is available to the public?
    - The silvertips at that time were way behind the hydro-shoks and Gold Dots design wise.  Have they been upgraded  at all through the years to get more cosistant expansion or are they still way behind?

Good questions.  I have to say that other than the books I have which were provided to me as a chief instructor for a state academy when I asked, they are most likely not available to the public.   They are not routinely sent out to LE Departments either.   That would be cost prohibitive simply because they aren't small and light and cost even at media rate postage would be high.

Hydrashoks were specifically designed for the FBI and the 10mm, originally, as a result of the famous Miami shootout, or so the story goes.   They were in testing the second year when I studied at the FBI Ballistics Lab for a week learning how to do the tests.    I don't have any results on the Gold Dot at all because their bonded gold dot bullet wasn't out till much later when I already had transferred back to the field.  However after testing by our department, we moved from hydrashok to gold dot exclusively in handguns.   I have found in my own accuracy testing that Hydrashok tends to vary greatly by caliber.  I've had good results with 9mm and .38 special but in .45 and .40 found it lacking.   Whereas with Gold Dot it seems to be universally good regardless of caliber although bullet weight made a big difference in .40 cal and in Short Barrel versions in a 2" S&W I shot the smallest groups I've ever seen from one of those guns.  The .38 doesn't translate well to .357 however.

I have to guess that silvertips haven't been upgraded by Olin at all.   The reason I make that guess is because Winchester like ATAK (Federal and Speer) and Remington deal through specific LE distributors for their LE line which is RANGER and comes in 50 rd LE boxes.   Silvertips still come in 50 rd boxes and are usually sold through commercial distributors along with Winchester White Box ammo which is their bargain priced offshore made promotional type ammo.   So I think that OLIN feels that silvertips still have marketing potential and good sales but that they aren't up to LE standards.   They are not a +P round at all.   Penetration is fairly poor in fact in the 20 yard windshield glass test, they failed to penetrate at all and none of the test rounds damaged the glass at 20 yards.  And at point blank range 3 didn't penetrate auto glass at all.  That of course is .380 just for an example.  The 115 grain 9mm did better but not great.

The most recent book I have indicates that the FBI was heavily concentrating on 40 calibers, which of course they have gone to as most other LE departments have over the last few years.   The .357 SIG is a great round and I'm not sure the .40 is as good as it is touted to be.   I have finally found a couple of versions that do well in my pistols but I really had to work to find them.    I am sure, however that both and the 9mm are superior to the .38 spec 158 grain lubaloy lead that we carried on duty when I started with the state in 1972.   I saw the actual results of a Trooper who was shot three times in the back of the head with his own gun on scene in 1973.   They didn't even make a mess but they did kill him at point blank range.   After that I started pulling bullets and reloading the powder charge on my issued ammo with one of my own choosing.   A practice that would have got me a very stiff suspension had anyone ever known.  The range officer always suspected when I would fire my duty rounds at qualification but he never said anything.    I think there were lots of cops all over the country doing "hot loads" at the time.   It was even the subject of a POLICE STORY Tv episode, which made me laugh.

I suspect that Winchester Black Talon was the upgrade for silvertips and while lots of people think that is the pinnacle of ammo technology, others don't and Winchester no longer even makes it.  But that's just my suspicion.  I have no hard facts to prove it.  

[MRC]

Thanks for the reply.  Keep the conversation going as the magazines I read seem to print what the ammunition manufacturer's tell them.  I have stayed with 115 and 124 Gold Dot in the 9mm's and Hydra-shoks in the 380 Seecamp, which isn't a real serious weapon in my opinion anyway.

[flintsghost]

Thanks for the reply.  Keep the conversation going as the magazines I read seem to print what the ammunition manufacturer's tell them.  I have stayed with 115 and 124 Gold Dot in the 9mm's and Hydra-shoks in the 380 Seecamp, which isn't a real serious weapon in my opinion anyway.

You are correct about Magazines.   I wrote for a French Gun magazine, now defunct called GAZETTE DES ARMES, and did a column on things in the USA like reloading etc.   I was their official US correspondant.  They were pretty good and didn't  edit my stuff for content at all.    In the US it's a bit different, as publishers and editors don't want to offend the advertisers.   So anything negative is usually edited out.  When I was building custom 1911's back in the 70's and 80's part time on the side from being a Trooper, I had several magazine articles done on my work.   I knew the staff at SOLDIER OF FORTUNE pretty well and had a good friend working there.   Bob Brown, the editor and publisher told me that if I would do a gun for him for free he would write a good article for me.   I told him, "no thanks,  I have more work than I can do now. "   By then I had already been in AMERICAN HANDGUNNER and COMBAT HANDGUNS and as a result was about 1 year behind in deliverys.   The guys who did articles on my work paid their way.   I didn't do freebies like some smith's do.   My guns were for people who needed them.   So I do know from experience that your observations are pretty true.   Even stuff in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN can tend to be a little biased about some advertisers.    Have you ever heard them say a bad thing about Ruger,  Midway, or Brownells...of course not.   Those people donate millions to the NRA and are advertisers to boot.   I've done business with all three and I'm not of the opinion that everything they do is gilded with gold like the NRA is.   But that's life and politics.  It exists in shooting too, unfortunately.    

[C0untZer0]

There have not been any major improvements to the Silvertip.  

Winchester certainly has introduced some significant improvements.  But an ammunition manufacturer doesn’t maximize profit by just taking a tech improvement, implementing it on an old product line and say that its “New & Improved”

Ammo companies maximize profit by creating a new round, with a new name and market as a “Revolutionary Breakthrough” and “Advanced metallurgic and ballistic technology”  They create a buzz about it.

Also, to a certain extent, if you make major design changes to “improve” a Silvertip, at what point is it really no longer a Silvertip – I mean, it would be a Silvertip in name only.

IMO, Winchester did come up with a significant design improvement with the Black Talon.  Unfortunately they were the victims of bad press when the anti-gun faction attacked Winchester and exploited the name of the round after a deranged individual went on a “Shooting Rampage”.

Anyway that technology has been incorporated in their Ranger “T” series.  Look at pictures of the old Black Talons recovered from gel and look at the Ranger Ts and you can see the similarities.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

Winchester has also made improvements with their bonded rounds.  The Ranger 9mm Bonded 147gr round looks like a really good performing round (have no idea how it would perform going in or coming out of a Roughbaugh).

[Reinz]

Flintsghost - that is the second time that I have heard of a gun magazine wanting a freebie for a write up.
I know a guy  that is an "unknown" whom makes awesome 1911's.   One of the top gun rag editors actually had the nerve to ask him for a free gun for a write up - a sure way to stardom.
The mechanic said "no dice".  I know that this move hurt him in the long run.  His name has never been mentioned in this publication, but it just went against hes grain to pay off that weasel that way.