The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: SAWBONES on October 03, 2005, 11:21:56 AM
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Well, my new R-9S is going back to Rohrbaugh.
Bought just 12 days ago and shot exactly twice, 100 rounds the first time and 50 rounds day before yesterday, ALL of it factory 115gr regular (non+P), with assiduous cleaning and relubrication afterwards according to factory recommendations, with SuperLube, and I noticed a crack on cleaning two days ago on reassembly, oriented fore-and-aft on the left rear of the slide, overlying the grasping grooves and extending around slightly to the rear of the slide.
It's definitely a fissure in the steel, NOT a scratch.
Sorry I can't provide pics, but I don't currently have a digital camera.
Disapponting in a brand new $1K gun, to say the least, not to mention the FTFs I've continued to have.
I'll be calling Rohrbaugh today.
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Wow, that's terrible! I'm sure Karl & Co. will have a new slide out to you pronto.
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That's shocking news, SAWBONES. It's a real disappointment.
Failures can happen anytime, but we don't want our $1000 pistol to have a single defect.
I know they will take care of it. It's hard to beat the lifetime guarantee for the original purchaser.
Bill
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I talked to Maria, and I'll be sending the pistol back to Rohrbaugh today, with a letter describing the problems, including the cracked slide and the FTFs.
I'll post again about it when I receive the pistol back and have a chance to shoot it again.
I hope they'll make it right.
I recognize that any product can have a rare flaw and that even the best manufacturers occasionally produce a "lemon", but it should be very rare with a pistol that cost $999! It'll be the company's response to an owner problem like this that will tell how serious they are about quality control and customer satisfaction.
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SAWBONES,
Sorry to hear of your problems!! :(
I have not had to utilize the customer service of the Rohrbaugh's as yet,but I understand they are very good and will take care of any problem that you have experienced..
I too-expect nothing but the best from these pups,and I know that you will be taken care of...
Brenden
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SAWBONES:
That's a real "bummer"!
O'Brian's Law holds that Murphy's Law is flawed by irrational exuberance. I am a believer in O'Brian's Law.
However, I am certain that the Brothers Rohrbaugh will make your pistol what it was meant to be.
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Terrible news for sure, and we all sympathsize as it could happen to anyone here.
I just know that you will get the best care that company can offer. That's the best I can do for you now. I know words are not going to help, and you will be without your R9 for a while, but it will be better than new when you recieve it back.
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Wow! $67 just to send a gun by UPS overnight from UT to NY.
It's been awhile since I had to overnight ship any guns, but last time it was $39-something, I think. ::)
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Sawbones
Sorry about the slide - I'm sure they will take care of you. I think that is the third cracked slide post I've noticed.
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1120340669
There was another if I remember correctly where someone posted pictures of the crack. I looked but could not find it.
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I stand to be corrected - you are the second. The previous posted site used to have pictues of the cracked slide but they are not there anymore.
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Given the condition of the pistol I would think that Rohrbaugh should pay shipping costs in both directions.
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Given the condition of the pistol I would think that Rohrbaugh should pay shipping costs in both directions.
I agree.
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I'll ask about reimbursement for the shipping costs, and I do agree that a brand new little $1K pistol should not cost its new owner such trouble and financial expense.
Maria didn't offer to send a UPS or FedEx pickup, and I didn't ask, but I was surprised to find how expensive it was!
I'm more concerned, though, that the pistol WORKS RELIABLY when I get it back, and that the point of impact-point of aim correspondence isn't ruined with any replacement parts (slide, barrel, etc.) I get.
As I hear more, I'll post about it.
Thanks everyone for your supportive comments.
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Very concerning indeed and regretable.
The main thing I hope that will come out of this is a metallurgical analysis on said slide so as to try and determine the cause. Only then can corrective measures be taken.
I will anticipate hopefully some info feedback in this vein over time - I never did like ''mystery'' failures.
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Chris
What bothers me is the thread I referenced above on another slide crack where I believe the crack was in the same general area - too bad the pictures are no longer there. It is very thin where the slide rail groove is.
My R9 is being shipped to Tom this week and I agree about things like this being a concern.
Is it my imagination or have the reports of failure to feed increased greatly since the factory move.
Dave
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[size=13]have the reports of failure to feed increased greatly since the factory move.[/size]
Dave - no, I think probably the FTF deal is probably just that way more guns have gone out and so there are also more folks owning and shooting R9's. So we here about it.
In theory at least - since the move, the QC aspect has gone way up as that is very much Eric's baby. Plus the machines are if anything bigger and better.
Of course no gun that goes out AFAIK gets a torture test so this could be something surfacing thru use that does need addressed. I shall be keen to get feedback.
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I returned my R-9S with the cracked slide to Rohrbaugh Monday Oct 3 by UPS overnight.
Not sure what took so long, but after calling Rohrbaugh several times to check on the pistola without getting any information (Maria was friendly, but couldn't tell me much about the gun's status), I finally got a call back today from Karl Rohrbaugh to say that the gun was in fact defective, and that they had relaced "the whole top end", test-fired it without problems and were sending it back to me.
I asked about getting a couple spare magazines for the gun as recompense for the shipping cost, and Karl said they'd send me a check for the amount instead of sending magazines.
Sounds like a stand-up approach to customer service and good company policy to me!
I'll post again when I receive the gun and have a chance to shoot it.
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SAWBONES,
I'm glad to hear they took care of the problem. Sounds like their customer service is working fine.
Bill
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The Rohrbaugh outfit knows how to take care of customers. Glad the pup is coming home.
Tom
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SAW - seems like customer care is alive and well - I expect thru the volume of stuff they are now making, there well could be the very occasional defect - maybe in the material piece, unseen. Without ultrasonic crack test processes I daresay a faulty slide could slip thru - with nothing at that stage showing a problem.
I do know that Eric is merciless with his QC these days and would not expect something to easily be released without it being shown as A OK.
Hope all will be well once the pup is back with you.
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Yeah, those magazines are hard to get -- I ordered some spares a couple months ago...but, you get used to waiting w. a Rohrbaugh
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I ordered two mags a few months ago and called yesterday to check on order. I was told the rumor there is a lot of mags should be received by Rohrbaugh soon and if it is true they will ship out shortly.
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Got the R-9s back today with a note and a check for $70 to cover my shipping costs from Karl Rohrbaugh.
The slide is clearly new, and they told me they replaced "the whole top end", meaning probably that the barrel and recoil spring guide rod assembly are new too.
The gun now hand cycles rounds from both magazines reliably, so hopefully it will cycle reliably in standard operating mode.
I expect to test it for function, accuracy and precision this Saturday, and will post about those results then, FWIW.
So far, so good, anyway!
I'm pleased to have gotten fairly quick satisfaction of this sort from a new firearms manufacturer, and it looks like the Rohrbaughs are standing behind their products well.
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Glad to hear that sawbones - and pretty much what I would have expected from the Bros Rorhbaugh. Class act.
Hopefully your revitalized pup will behave and please you.
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Let us know how well it shoots!
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I just came back from shooting the refurbished R-9S.
Well, the accuracy and precision are excellent for a pistol of this type.
POI = POA, and the first 124gr JHP Gold Dot from a clean cold barrel went right in the middle of the 2" bullseye of a standard NRA slowfire pistol target at 5 yards.
I still had FTFs (failures to feed), in spite of polishing the feedramp with Simichrome and my Dremel, AND heating the Mili-Tech treated feedramp with my wife's hairdryer afterward, but function was much better on the whole. Basically, I had occasional FTFs for the first 15 rounds, then perfect function for many rounds, then occasional FTFs again at the end of 113 total rounds, of which 38 were Gold Dots, 25 were 115gr Federal 9BP JHP, and 50 were Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ.
FTFs were of three types; either the cartridge would be lying straight and still mostly contained within the magazine, and bullet nose would be lodged against the front of the shiny polished feedramp, or the cartridge would be pointed up at an acute angle and the bullet nose lodged against the top-inside of the chamber, or a round would be lodged full-length at the top of the ejection port, with the lower base of the cartridge against the upper breechface and the bullet nose against the upper edge of the chamber, with another round pushing up from beneath!
All three types of FTF were instantly reduced by partial retraction and release of the slide, with each type, even the third, permitting the errant round to rise or dropthen enter the chamber.
No failures to fire, even though primer hits are slightly off center.
I have a new problem, though; the slide now fails to retract readily with hand pressure from the closed (in-battery) position, though firing isn't apparently affected. Since this seems to be a separate issue, I've started a new thread about it.
Thanks for looking.
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My new R9 (bought Aug 2005) also has a crack in the slide, in the same location. Left side rear. Also after a couple hundred rounds I am getting light primer strike/failures to fire. I'm also having failures to eject and the magazine catch releasing while firing. Same story with me. I'm cleaning and lubricating correctly. I've been shooting and cleaning guns for over 40 years, so I know what I'm doing. None of my 4 Kahrs (2 PM9s), 4 Glocks, 3 KelTecs, 2 S&Ws and Colt .45 Combat Commander has had this kind of trouble. I've talked to Rohrbaugh and they said to send it back for repair, at my expense. So I'll have to pay the $30+ dollars to send my $1150 gun back for repair, after shooting only 350 rounds.
Hopfuly they can fix it. It's really a very nice concealment gun, and I loved it for the first 100 rounds, before things started going wrong.
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I don't think the problems you describe are permissible on a $1K gun, either.
Don't be afraid to ask for your shipping costs to be reimbursed. I did, and was recompensed. They won't do it "up front" for each customer interested in returning an R-9 to the factory, since they say that the bulk of guns sent back turn out to have shooter-induced problems like improper reassembly, but with a cracked slide, there's really no question about it being other than defective, and I suspect they'll reimburse you for your shipping cost if you request it.
I haven't had failures to fire (even though some primer strikes look a bit "light" and all are slightly off center) or to extract.
In any case, I wouldn't shoot the little dingus further with a crack in the slide!
I found Karl Rohrbaugh to be businesslike and accomodating on the phone, and I believe he's trying to put out a good product. I've spoken to him twice, and I haven't had the courtesy of a personal call from a company founder-owner at other gun companies with whose products I've had problems (Kahr). Some defects unavoidably will slip through with any manufactured item, but it's the customer service on addressing those problems that really indicates the quality of the company and its personnel.
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Ed - welcome to the board :)
Sorry to hear you have had that problem also - any chance of a pic if it'd show the crack?
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Ed,
Welcome..
Sorry to hear of another crack-A pic would be great to be able to see the problem..
I do know that of my 2 pups that I have shot,no problems to speak of that were not to blame of the shooter..(ME)..
I am sure things will get worked out to your satisfaction..
Brenden
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Thanks for all the kind responses to my post. I have some pictures of the R-9 cracked slide, but I'm new to this Forum so I'm not sure how to get the picture posted. I'll figure it out and post it later. Thanks again everyone.
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If you want, email me the pic and I'll post it for you. Send it to jim@archer.net.
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This is a fantastic forum for a great product from very customer oriented management, but the reliability issues and cracked slides on such a small number of custom produced pistols gives me pause... especially when it was sent back, upper assembly replaced, test fired, and still is not 100%. I will still try to get one, but not for the originally intended purpose.
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I sent my R-9 back to Rohrbaugh for repairs today. It cost $36.47 for FedEx over night from Cincinnati Ohio. I'll keep posting the progress of the repairs and follow up functioning reports. I've sent jarcher pictures of the cracked R-9 slide to post. When I have more time I'll figure out how to post pictures myself. Thanks for all the support.
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Here are the pictures:
http://www.archer.net/r9/R9_crack_1.jpg
http://www.archer.net/r9/R9_crack_2.jpg
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Here is one for you:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/melissa1948/R9_crack_2.jpg)
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The other: Looks like it is above the slide rail where it is thin.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/melissa1948/R9_crack_1.jpg)
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EdMan:
Welcome to the Forum. It's unfortunate that you have had a problem, but the R9 is a fantastic pistol and the Rohrbaughs will make it right.
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Edman,
Welcome to the forum. I know you will enjoy all the people here.
They will take care of it for you.
Bill
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The crack on mine went all the way to the front of the grasping grooves, and around to the back.
The height of the area where the crack occured (thinnest part of slide) was the same.
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Dave - thx for pic post - as ever graphics help so much.
Well - predictably that is over the thinnest section. Odd thing is despite imagining considerable stresses under firing - the tolerancing of frame/slide fit is so good that it's hard to see enough deviation from mainly longitudinal forces - those being ''shared'' pretty much along whole length.
I wonder if at final lock up stage there is a stress spike that can affect the very rear - and the crack Sawbones describes has obviously started in same place but ''run'' further, and maybe quicker.
I have little doubt these rare instances will have given the Bros R much valuable info re the metallurgy, and stresses.
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Thanks to all you for all of the welcome messages, and concern. Thanks to jarcher and MountainMan for posting pictures of my cracked slide. Yes it is at the thinest part of the slide. But I have GOOD NEWS! I saved a bunch of money.... oh oh wrong commercial. The good news is That Eric Rohrbaugh called me this morning and told me he got my R-9. He told me some of the things they were going to do to fix it. He sounds like a great guy. This is indeed great customer service, especially considering today's trend for businesses to take your money and give no, or crapy service. So I guess the high price of my R-9 was worth it after all, since it included such great customer service. So as the jumper from a tall building was heard saying, "so far so good." I'll keep you all posted on the situation.
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So as the jumper from a tall building was heard saying, "so far so good." 8)
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So as the jumper from a tall building was heard saying, "so far so good."
Skyhook, It's not that bad! Most of the Rohrbaugh slides will never crack, but the jumper knows that in a few seconds he's gonna be saying, "So far so.....[SPLAT] :'("
Seriously,I took another look at my R9S with Deer Park slide both inside the frame groove and on the outside. No indications of distress after 200 rounds. There are tight radii in there, but no different from other brands of pistols I own. I'll be putting another 50 rounds thru my gun this weekend or early next week. "So far so good..." ;)
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Today Karl Rohrbaugh called me and told me that my R-9 was fixed, and he was shiping it back to me. It has only been two days since I sent it to him. This is really extraordinarily outstand customer service!! He told me all that he did to my R-9. At my request he even replaced the unsighted R-9 slide with one with sights (as I really wanted, but couldn't get at the gun show where I bought my pup), so now I will have a
R-9S! Too cool for school (as we used to said in the old days). I asked Karl why the slide cracked. He told me he had gotten some bad stainless steel bars from his supplier. So it sounds like any new Rohrbaugh pistols should be free of this defect. So any of you out there who were leery of buying a Rohrbaugh pistol because of the cracked slide problem, don't be. Buy one and enjoy it. After I get my pup back I'll test fire it and give further reports. "So far so good." Maybe there is a big cusion under the jumper. Range time will tell.
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I asked Karl why the slide cracked. He told me he had gotten some bad stainless steel bars from his supplier. .
EdMan
Glad it all worked out - when was your R9 made and its approximate SS# (example R56#) would be of interest to those who may have had their R9 made at about the same time.
Thanks
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Thanks for asking MountainMan,
My R-9 serial # is in the R59x range.
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Eek! Mine's R584!
No problems after probably over 400 rounds, though. :)
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Well, don't worry too much.
Mine's R9XX, and the crack went all the way from front to back of the grasping grooves and around the rear on the left side of the slide (not a through-and-through crack, that is, not all the way through the steel, but a looooong, if not too deep, crack).
Anyway, maybe it means QC is worse with LATER than with EARLIER serial numbers?
Or maybe it's a fluke.
In any event, it suggests to me that either the gun is running near the limit of its material stress tolerances, or that there's a QC problem. I suspect the former is the case, but neither choice is very good, of course.
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Eek! Mine's R584!
No problems after probably over 400 rounds, though. :)
Hey Erich, if you have 400 rounds fired and no crack has appeared, then you are probably OK. Karl didn't say how many bad stainless steel bars he had. There may have only been a few, like from one gang mold, or batch. And he may have caught it before too many were shipped. Karl did say he has taken a cracked slide and put it on a "torture" frame and fired many more rounds with it and the crack didn't get any worse. Of course he will still replace any cracked slides sent to him. UPS tried to deliver my repaired R-9(s) today but I wasn't home to sign for it. So they will try again Monday. So far so good.......... I'll keep you all posted.
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Yeah, it seems rather like the cracks that frequently appear on the dust cover of 1911s . . . no real harm to anything.
That torture gun Karl has going has really seen a lot of abuse. Karl's told me about it. Frankly, I feel sure my gun will outlive me in a functioning capacity.
Anyway, glad it's going to work out for you, Edman, and thanks for telling your story! :)
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Thanks Edman - let us know how you like your reborn R9.
Dave
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Update.
Out shooting the R-9S again this morning.
Repeated FTFs with 124gr Gold Dot JHP within the first 25 rounds (all nose-up catches of the bullet at the chamber), then none at all after that.
No change in grip style, grip pressure, etc. to account for this apparent phenomenon, which seems to be that the gun runs better after firing a few rounds than it does when clean.
I'm going to leave it dirty and shoot it again next weekend to see if perhaps it needs a few "fouling shots" in order to run reliably.
If it can't be relied upon to function clean, on demand, it ain't much of a last-ditch pocket pistol AFAIC. Perhaps I'm chasing a Will o' the Wisp.
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I'm very disappointed to learn about all the recent problems. When something costs upwards of one thousand dollars, I have high expectations.
I'm at only 62 rounds total, but can't help but have some concerns, even though it is OK so far.
Let's keep our fingers crossed, and hope these few bumps in the road will be smoothed out.
I recognize that out of the hundreds of pistols, we are just hearing about a few that need attention.
I feel sorry for those who are getting off to a bad start.
Bill
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Bill, I sure agree with you, however, we must all be aware that just a few guns out of hundreds have had any problems.
It seems like more but we are are really only hearing about only a few guns. I think Rohrbaugh will take care of these problems.
Tom
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Bill, I sure agree with you, however, we must all be aware that just a few guns out of hundreds have had any problems.
It seems like more but we are are really only hearing about only a few guns. I think Rohrbaugh will take care of these problems.
Tom
Yes and no... There could be problems experienced by people who don't use the Internet and/or this forum. What concerns me more is wondering how many R9 owners actually ever shoot their pistols. I would guess most owners put a few rounds downrange, then load up and never shoot again at a range.
I'm not saying this is the case, I am just saying its a nagging thought that bothers me.
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I'm just glad we have this forum to share our experiences.
Otherwise, I would have thought everything was perfectly wonderful because of my own good fortune up to this time.
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I think Jarcher is right that most buy a pocket carry, put a mag or two though it, and carry it and maybe never shoot it again or a mag once or twice a year. Some never shoot it at all. I saw a Seecamp LWS380 for sell on the forum that was carried but the post said never shot. My R9 will probably only get about 40 successful rounds through it before I feel confident in carrying it. Then again we see some who had no problems until after twice that. But if you go 80 rounds how do you know the problems won't start at 100 or 150. So the truth is you will never know. I didn't buy this gun to shoot a lot so I'll just have faith in it.
The Seecamp LWS32 I have carried for years gets very few rounds through it yet in my mind I feel it will function if needed.
It does seem there have been more problems since the plant move. Again there are more guns out there. I would say it you had a forum devoted to any particular gun, as this is, you would see the same kind of problems on some guns.
Doesn't make it better for the ones having problems - except here there are many on this forum who will listen and care - and that includes myself.
Dave
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Bill,
Kinda like watching the news these days!! :o
I do know that Rohrbaugh will make right with the problems,although SawBones,you have went thru some extra ones that would not please me either..
Please keep us up to date and as with anything,if we can help,we will try.. :)
Brenden
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As I stated in an earlier thread, after putting approx. 120 flawless rounds of various brands (Wolf, Federal,WWB) through my R9S last weekend, I feel very confident in carrying it. My son and I had so much fun shooting it that you can be sure we'll be taking it to the range next time as well!
Eric
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BTW I am carrying an R55X serial # and have a consecutive one "put away". ;)
Both Deer Park and looks to be within a "possible" problem area??
I will continue to shoot my carry gun and not worry that something "may" happen..
If something does occur,I shall deal with it,I do not anticipate it!!
I would not carry the pup if I did not have utmost confidence in it's ability to carry out it's duty..
Brenden
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Eric (eblackhawk)
I'll correct my previous post. If I had a son as yourself I would be shooting the R9 more. You are a lucky guy. I have many pleasant memories shooting with my dad. Of course in those days nobody used ear protection - one reason a have some ringing now.
I am now very protective of my hearing . Won't even cut the grass with out hearing protection. Into pistol carry now days over a lot of shooting for that reason. I use to do competition 100 yard steel plate pistol shooting using both ear plugs and muffs at the same time.
Many kids don't shoot now days - but they have another problem with ear damage. I'm afraid many of the kids using ipods today are looking at a future of ring ears.
Dave
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Dave - not so jokingly, my wife and I considered a venture in hearing aids - because of the modern trend for young folks to blast their ears so casually!! Eventually they will pay the price.
In my early center fire long range rifle days, as an army cadet - the best we had for ear ''protection'' was twisted up cleaning patch - lotta good that did. How and why I do not have severe tinnitus I do not know - more down to luck than judgement!!!
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Mine is bad. You are fortunate, Chris.
I took my 97 year old mother to get a hearing aid recently, and asked him if he had anything for ear ringing. I was thinking of an appliance putting out a signal 180 degrees out of phase with the person's ringing, which would result in zero amplitude, I guess.
He said No, but indicated that hearing aids actually seem to help reduce the annoyance. I don't know how.
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Bill and Chris
If I would think of the ringing in the ears it would be annoying - most time I just don't think of it. There are people who have had it bad commit suicide. It is never completely quiet.
I think most of the problem developed from years of using the tractor without ear protection.
Wife keeps on telling me to get a hearing aid but I have been resisting.
Dave
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Excellent advice, Dave. The less you think about it, the better.
White noise is most useful. I like to be around water and hear the waves "roaring".
You know, it may not be possible to "cancel" out the ringing, as if it were a sine wave. Maybe nothing is in motion in the ear, which could be canceled with another wave 180 degrees out of phase.
Maybe it is the brain pretending to hear ringing. Who knows.
For now, it's foam ear plugs and ear muffs. That's a good idea about wearing something while mowing.
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Dave, HUH????
Tom
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The fine hairs in our ear's semicircular canal act like tiny tuning forks and vibrate with incoming sound, producing elecrical signals which the brain interprets as sound. The function of these hairs can be disturbed by the hairs being broken (by loud noises) or debris in the fluid collecting and moving the "hairs". In my case it was homemade fireworks, rock concerts, 5" naval guns and someone shooting a handgun about a foot from my unprotected left ear. It's exacerbated by asprin, dehydration and certain kinds of sounds.
The suggestion of low levels of white noise is a good one - it does mask the tinnitus. In some cases, nerve damage causes the electrical signal to stimulate motion in the "hairs", producing sound that can actually be heard by another person!
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Ubik covered some good stuff there.
IMO some damage aspects are actually physical to such a degree that phase inversion cannot help too much. In other words - there is no 'sound' per se to cancel with a 180º signal.
The other factor which I think affects some folks is, apart from cochlear hairs damage/disturbance - is the ossicles that can sometimes get a sorta ''arthritis - tho this affects acuity more than causing tinnitus I think. A conduction factor.
Ossicle degredeation is perhaps due to sometimes congenital/genetic factors - a predisposition to degenerative effects - tho some argue that extreme excursions of ossicles even if not enough to tie in with eardrum perforation - are themselves able to predsipose degenerative change.
Bottom line - is protect those valuable assets - tho us oldie's of course were rarely if ever really aware back then of our risks. Oh so logical, NOW!!!
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What did you say?
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Drat! >:(
Well, I went to the range today - after changing out the recoil spring (on #3 now), I've put round #550 through it.
And look what I see after cleaning the gun . . . an incipient crack on the right side of the slide. (I hope it shows up on the photo, and I hope folks forgive the giant photo.)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Erich505/rohrbaughcrack15oct05004.jpg)
Looks like R 584 did not dodge the "batch of bad steel" bullet after all.
I'll bet Maria's getting tired of talking to me . . . we'll find out tomorrow a.m. ::)
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Erich,
I'm shocked to see this.
A resolution needs to come right away before word gets around in the gun world.
It is a most serious situation.
To my knowledge, fine pistols do not crack.
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Heck Erich - that does look suspect :(
Same thing - thinnest region over rails.
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"Shot a little and carried a lot" has a new ominous twist. I
was noticing how thin that area was,too, after several
failures--maybe it is more than a bad batch of slides.
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I took another look and some comparison measurements on the R9 vs. Sig P239 (.40 S&W) which has a very similar construction.
R9 is 0.0375" thick (thin?) in the area where Sawbones & Erich have experienced cracks. The corner appears to be a very sharp right angle - almost no radius.
Sig P239 is 0.050" thick in the equivalent area. Corner on the Sig is just as sharp as the R9. That doesn't sound like much more material, but it's 1/3 again more material. 30+% stronger.
I'll be keeping an eye on my slide from now on. I guess the only bright spot is if it ain't cracked when you put in your pocket in the morning, a defensive scenario where you have to shoot the full magazine ain't gonna cause the R9 to fail you. I hope... :'(
BTW: This should probably be a new thread, but I'm wondering if anyone has had to shoot an R9 in "anger"?
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Seems like they could just fill in the finger grooves in the area above the groove -- should help strengthen the metal. Does an X-ray test help find metal cracks? I remember it being something that used to be done on gun barrels to make sure there weren't bubbles in the metal of the barrels.
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Edman's photos seem to show the crack started in the grasping groove.
But judging from Erich's photo, the crack started at the back of the slide in the "land" area, not at the base of the grasping groove.
I'm sure the Rohrbaugh Company will perform a thorough metallurgy analysis and review their stress calculations. Hopefully, the basic design will prove sound.
A couple of failures in 1,000 production guns isn't necessarily the end of the world, but an upward trend as guns in service pass the 500 round mark would be bad news indeed.
It seems almost half the total R9 owners are forum members, so we're seeing most of problems....
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The crack does in fact start at the back of the slide on the "land" area of the grasping serration.
I really can't imagine this would affect function, though. At least not for a long time. I'm just disturbed that I have to look at it.
I emailed Rohrbaugh 4 photos of the crack last night, and will call Maria in a half hour or so when they open up. I'm sure they'll take care of it.
As was previously reported, Rohrbaugh said they got a bad batch of steel. This pistol was less than 10 away from another with a cracked slide, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was made from the same batch of bad steel.
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Ubik380, that was a fine post about ear ringing. I had wondered if some other person could hear the ringing.
Thank you for the interesting information.
It's a most important subject, and I hope new shooters will take great care to protect their precious hearing and vision.
Bill
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Does anyone know if Rohrbaugh uses MIM in making the R-9?
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I'm fairly certain the answer is a firm NO. :)
I've read so many articles about the firm and the gun - I believe they proudly make everything out of bar stock.
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That is correct.
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AAACCCKKKK! No MIM! No forged or cast parts either! And no plastic! ;D
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Seems like they could just fill in the finger grooves in the area above the groove -- should help strengthen the metal. Does an X-ray test help find metal cracks? I remember it being something that used to be done on gun barrels to make sure there weren't bubbles in the metal of the barrels.
Aglifter,
I suspect that odds are these cracked slides are due to defects in the grain of the raw material before machining. The slide is awful thin in parts, but with the type of forces being applied that most likely is not an issue. As far as doing an x-ray inspection and it detecting cracks. That is true an x-ray will detect cracks that are on the surface or sub surface including fissures. A cheaper and more practical way to go is to have a local machine shop or aircraft repair facility do a dye penetrate inspection. All this does is place a small about a dye that will creep into a surface crack and make it easier to see. I have R533 and am somewhat concerned over this matter, but all I intend to do is use a 10X to stronger magnifying glass and keep an eye on it. I may never have a problem since I am taking Mr. Rohrbaugh’s advice of “carry allot and shoot a little”. I believe this gun was not designed to shoot thousands of rounds. Happy shooting and be safe!
Respectfully,
Jim
-Hopefully if it is determined to be bad material they will recall that batch of pistols.
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Talk about a great response!
Maria gave me their UPS # and I'll be shipping my gun back on their dime. No BS, no questions asked. The whole gun has to go back because the slide has to be fitted to the gun.
She said that Karl said there's only been at most 3 other slide cracks - looks like we really do have most of the Rohrbaugh owners in the world on this forum! :) Maria said that Karl knew about the cause (must be that steel) and that he said that it wouldn't be an issue for any new guns and that it should only have been an issue for a very limited number of guns.
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Erich,
That's good news from Karl R. in a pile of bad news.
I think the next time mine is apart for cleaning I'm going to give the slide grooves a good look-over with an 8X lupe. Then maybe I'll take some dental floss and Simichrome polish to those sharp corners.
At least I'll feel like I did something useful. ;)
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It looks to me as if the slide may have been shot peened (blasted) to relieve stress after the machining process was done. Then lightly bead blasted for a soft matte finish.
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Erich,
Man I’m sorry to say “welcome to the Rohrbaugh cracked slide club.” I’m glad that Rohrbaugh is going to pay to ship your pistol back to them. The turn around time was great on mine, and I got an R9S sighted slide out of the deal (which I like better), so I didn’t ask for my $36 shipping cost back. I just finished test firing mine with the new slide. At 15’ point of impact is within ½” of point of aim. I’m pleased with this. I put about 25 rounds through it. The twelve 115 grain Speer GDHP rounds I shot all performed flawlessly. The last three of the 115 grain FMJ UMC/Remington rounds failed to fire on the first pull of the trigger, but ignited on the second trigger pull. All I can think is maybe UMC has harder primers. In fact the primers on the fired UMC cases had the primer indentions totally pushed back out so they were flush with the rest of the primer. Also the slide and barrel were quite warm at the end of the 25 round string (the last 6 rounds were shot double tap rapid fire), so maybe expansion due to heat had something to do with the failure to fire problem. Erich good luck on your repair, I’m sure the Rohrbaughs will nurse your pup back to good health.
I wish you the best, EdMan
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After reading many posts here on the Rohrbaugh forum, and after talking to Karl Rohrbaugh, I now understand what the Rohrbaughs mean when they say, “carry a lot and shoot a little.” I was treating my Rohrbaugh like I was treating my Glocks and Kahr pistols. Most of you know what I’m talking about, “minimum of 200 rounds fired before it can be considered reliable.” Fire a few hundred practice rounds a month for the fun of it. I now realize that’s not the way to treat or think of a Rohrbaugh, they are not designed to fire thousands of rounds. My Glocks have thousands of rounds fired through them and my Kahr pistols almost as many. All with no failures, but they are not as light, concealable or as “finely crafted as the Rohrbaugh pistols. I think a good analogy is; the Glocks are like tough Pickup trucks. Big and tough, they will get the job done and take many miles of rough handling. The Kahr PM9s are like Mini Vans. Again they will get the job done, not quite as big or tough as the Glocks (trucks), but still do a good job after lots of use. Then we have the finely crafted, small, light, nimble Rohrbaugh. It reminds me of a small exotic sports car. Fun to drive and fulfils its purpose in life, and not to be driven hard everyday. When you need it, it will do its job if you keep it well maintained and don’t wear it out with unnecessary use. So after getting my repaired pup back I will be shooting it a lot less for fun, and carrying it more for protection, when it is not practical to carry the “trucks or minivans.”
Something else I like is what Karl Rohrbaugh told me, “I have my name on the gun…I consider Rohrbaugh owners to be part of my family.” I believe him.
Good Luck to all of may fellow Rohrbaugh owning brothers and sisters.
EdMan
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It is with regret to learn of the slide cracking on Erich R9s. Having dealt with Karl Rohrbaugh on an issue with my pistol I'm confident that Erich's gun will be made right. I though have a hard time swallowing what you guys are saying about "gingerly" firing our R9. Given the fact that +P ammo is prohibited, that replacing the serviceable parts (springs etc) on a regular basis as factory prescribed prevent maintenance there is no reason that the "superstructure" of the gun should fail within such a short round count. I find this very distressfull. Mind you I'm not preposing that the gun be able to digest 10K's rounds but come on 550? I really hope that Erich's gun displays "bad metal" and not a mistake in engineering. I took a 10x glass and looked at the rear of the slide and realized that the metal area looks very thin. Would it be possible to slightly thicken the slide just a bit so that that area would be "reinforced" sort to speak?
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Great idea; that is what I alluded to earlier. It would not
be an easy change but would be necessary if that is indeed
the problem---then we have the problem of 700+ guns
in circulation. No doubt the Rohrbaughs will do the right thing.
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This is indeed a thin area but - when we consider the immense development time for the gun, long before we had a chance to buy, then it is logical that in the process of design and development this area probably received much stress analysis and torture testing - only logical.
Nice tho it might be to see an increase in thickness - the slide ultimately as I see it had a design width limit - increase that thin rail section and slide width altogether goes up, albeit quite marginally but also too - small weight increase. Anyways too - with the fine tolerancing on the gun - and the longitudinal motion of the slide - the stresses at this point should not be major - rail stresses being for most part linearly distributed. There would almost have to be a material problem to bring out this phenomenon we are seeing.
So I see this as a metallurgical problem from as has been said - imperfect bar stock. May have been a small irregularity of heat treatment - a small alloying error etc. Hopefully, raw materials are logged against gun's made and their numbers - that would mean an ability to trace back in batch terms and track down any errant components.
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Mine is R5xx. I sure hope it is not next. As for the gun not being designed to fire thousands of rounds, I really hope that is not the case. Seeing a catostropic failure after 500 rounds is not the mark of a quality pistol.
Still, Rohrbaugh will survive this and get it fixed. If Karl knows which pistols might have this issue I wish he would tell us, so we can keep an eye open...
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The cracks are also linear.
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Sure - cracks are indeed linear but force needed to instigate, promote or encourage those would need be 90º to that linear direction. In theory at least!
I'd expect only the smallest vector deviating from the linear travel regarding stress but linear crack appearance is still logical if we consider the thin-walled nature of that area - crack propagation will always want to follow the weakest region.
The puzzle is the actual crack beginning - which to me has to be a very spurious metallurgical failing, best explained right now by inferior bar stock - which no doubt appeared perfectly normal when machined.
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It could be a combination of metallurgical failure and
thin slide at that point but if it were only the
thin slide there may have been more occurrences.
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Agreed tracker - that is why I follow the ''bad batch'' route for raw materials.
Plus as said also - all the vast time of R&D on this gun - it would have shown long ago that greater thickness was needed - if with A1 materials it had failed.
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Read on the Seecamp forum where someone in the past said they returned a Seecamp for repair because of a hairline slide crack by the extractor. There may be more cracked slides out there from different brands but you never hear of them since most guns don't have a forum dedicated to one pistol.
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Read on the Seecamp forum where someone in the past said they returned a Seecamp for repair because of a hairline slide crack by the extractor. There may be more cracked slides out there from different brands but you never hear of them since most guns don't have a forum dedicated to one pistol.
I agree entirely. There is a temptation to forget that the instant contact age and the gun problems could easily produce an out-of-proportion negativity.
I'm sitting here wondering about those 1911 jammatics I owned (Two were Gold Cups!) that needed work. What would that have looked like on a site like this!?!
I am hoping what we're seeing are 'teething problems' and the manufacturer will be resourceful enough to work around those problems.
Our roles are ones of patience and vigilance, IMHO.
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Skyhook, thanks for your last post, yes I agree with you. It must be tough to be in the middle of problem like that.
Tom ???
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So I see this as a metallurgical problem from as has been said - imperfect bar stock. May have been a small irregularity of heat treatment - a small alloying error etc. Hopefully, raw materials are logged against gun's made and their numbers - that would mean an ability to trace back in batch terms and track down any errant components.
Are all of the known cracked slides in the R5xx range? Were all of them received around the same time?
Since slides do not carry serial numbers, how could it be known which guns have the "bad batch" of steel? I thought slides and frames were machined in batches and then later randomly matched and fitted together, hence the illogical sequence of serial numbers. If that's the case, serial numbers are meaningless in determining who has the suspect slides on their guns. Am I completely off base on this?
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Beats me.
At least 2 of the 4 slide cracks I know about were in the high 500 SN range. Mine is R 584 and another was R 59X.
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harrydog,
I'm pretty sure you are right. Serial number only indicates when the frame got to the "serial number puttin' on stage".
My R9S was delivered in mid July, a week after it was built. It has a serial number in the mid -300's, but I was assured the frame has the latest anodizing & machining details, barrel machining, etc. And my slide is marked "Deer Park". I watched my dealer unpack the box of 18 R9's. Mine was at the top of the shipping box. The ones on the bottom could have been in the 7xx range, or anywhere in between. You might say my pup was the pick of the litter, because I got to the shop first. ;)
BTW: My Simichrome polish and dental floss trick won't work. I forgot the frame grooves in the slide don't run all the way to the front of the slide. I modified a brass drift to get into those corners and kinda "boned" the metal along with a bit of polish. The metal finish is very smooth to begin with. Didn't feel any machining marks.
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That's a good point, Skyhook, about the way information is flashed around so easily.
It's very difficult to conceal product defects these days.
Again, I'm pleased with the way Mr. Rohrbaugh is responding directly to the customer.
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harrydog,
I'm pretty sure you are right. Serial number only indicates when the frame got to the "serial number puttin' on stage".
My R9S was delivered in mid July, a week after it was built. It has a serial number in the mid -300's, but I was assured the frame has the latest anodizing & machining details, barrel machining, etc. And my slide is marked "Deer Park". I watched my dealer unpack the box of 18 R9's. Mine was at the top of the shipping box. The ones on the bottom could have been in the 7xx range, or anywhere in between. You might say my pup was the pick of the litter, because I got to the shop first. ;)
End Quote...
I do know that a batch received by a dealer has a wide variance in Serial #s..Could be a R300 or an R600,in the same shipment..
I bought one Deer Park from one dealer from one part of the country,and another one from another dealer and they were consecutive.. 8) :o
And lo and behold they are in the area or Serial #s that are showing this abnormality..
I carry one, and have not shot the other..
I will not fret about it, but have confidence that if something does go wrong that it will be taken care of.. :)
Brenden
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While Rohrbaugh has my cracked R9s (only the 4th one reported here, if I understand correctly) and will no doubt fix it, I'd reiterate that I don't think these cracks would affect function for a LONG time. Again, I'd liken them to the cracks that 1911s get in their dust covers. Unsightly, but not in any way damaging to performance. Accordingly, I am not in any way concerned about the gun's reliability (and, yes, I continued to carry mine even after I discovered the slide crack ;) ).
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I agree with Erich in as much as I cannot see a crack propogating sufficient to prejudice function for a very long time - which is not of course to excuse the cracking!
Harrdog - yes indeed - you are right re SN on frame etc - but I was thinking that even if picking of a slide is somewhat random - chances are there would still be for most part a ''region'' of gun's SN's going out that could have a potential for crack formation - not therefore real early or real late - may not help much but perhaps give Bros R a rough idea of when the material was used for those slides.
Could even be too - despite a slightly inferior bar stock - and I am sure it was probably only marginally inferior - that would still not mean that every slide from it's use would by default be crack-prone.
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Erich,
I agree with you. The crack in my R-9’s slide was not very big and probably would not have caused a major problem with the pistol, at least not for a long time. But it is still not someting you want to see on your $1,000 pistol. Also Karl R told me that he has put (at least one) of the cracked slides on his “torture” frame and fired more rounds with it (I don’t know how many, but I get the impression it was quite a few) and the crack didn’t get any worse, or cause any failures.
Erich let us know how your pup performs when you get it back with the new slide. I have 20 more Speer 115 grain GDHP rounds through mine and it is still doing well.
Ed
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EdMan,
Please keep us updated!!
Glad to hear of your "progress" :)
Brenden
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I have been reporting on some problems with Golden Saber ammo in another part of the forum. After about a week of receipt of the R9s and two trips to the range, with a cleaning in between, and a total of around 100 rounds of various of non +P ammo described in my Golden Saber postings, the slide is cracked as Sawbones reported in his original posting on this topic. I will contact Rohrbaugh Monday to arrange for return and repair. My serial number is in the mid R900's.
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bobvvp,
Sorry to hear that!! :(
So-how many total rounds thru the pup?
Brenden
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About 100 in total. I noticed Jarcher helped another member post some photos so I going to email him and see if he can do the same for me.
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I can help with posting photos also..
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Thanks. Let me know what I need to do.
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Sorry to hear that, Bob.
I guess at least you found out early . . . hope it's resolved soon.
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Thanks Erich. Sounds like the company takes good care of folks with a problem. I will report on my experience. Meanwhile, back to the Seecamp.
Forum member Jarcher is helping me with a posting of pictures of the crack.
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I was looking at the slide again and to see how thin the metal is. When I look at the rear part of the slide and look forward the metal is then. Then I look at the sides where the angled grooves are cut on the slide (these grooves help you rack the slide by hand). That thin part of the slide is extremely thin and these grooves make it thinner.
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bobvvp,
I'm sorry to welcome you to the Rohrbaugh cracked slide club. You are in good company. The Rohrbaugh brothers will take care of it for you. Good luck on your repairs.
Ed
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Here are links to Bob's images. Everyone, please don't repost these images with img tags into another message. These images are very hi-res and as such very large. People with slow connections will be forced to DL them when they open this thread page and probably won't be too happy.
just click on the links to view the images:
http://www.archer.net/r9/Rohrbaugh_Crack.jpg (453K)
http://www.archer.net/r9/Rohrbaugh_Crack_2.jpg (1,029K)
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Thanks to Jarcher for your help on posting this.
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Jim - thx for posting those links - those pics are excellent and I will if no one minds reduce them and display them here shortly, as it would help dial-up folks and the pics do show excellent detail
It appears the crack has run from top of groove obliquely and is in fact at rear where visible externally possibly all ''thru and thru'' - which is a bad crack IMO. It may run further with use tho again I'd not expect a catastrophic gun failure to be possible at this stage.
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The original pics were large filesize mainly because minimal compression. I have tried to save on size by converting to grayscale and compressing more - meaning now they are quite small - plus I cropped one in a bit. Added an arrow too to assist re the rear view. These are most helpful pics, thx Bob and Jim.
(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/shoot6/bobvvp-rohrbaugh_crack-s.jpg)
(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/shoot6/bobvvp-rohrbaugh_crack2-s.jpg)
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Thanks for all the help in getting these posted so the information can be shared by all.
Maria at Rohrbaugh and I spoke today and she was most helpful. I will be sending (they are paying for UPS) my R9 their way today or tomorrow and will keep folks updated.
My hat is off to all you who created, administer and contribute to this forum. It is very informative and helpful. It should be a model for other products and services.
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Happy to help, and that's a nice job reducing them. I'll leave the hi-res images posted in case anyone wants a closer look.
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I shipped my R9s with the cracked slide to Rohrbaugh last night and Eric Rohrbaugh called me this morning to let me know he had received it and they would get right on it. He indicated they believed the problem to be due to a bad lot of material. He also indicated he had an idea regarding the issue with my failures to fire with the Remington Golden Saber. Excellent follow up as far as I am concerned.
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I wish I knew how many pistols were effected by this bad lot of metal and if mine was included in that batch.
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bigyimmy, someone posted that four cracked slides had been reported here.
The folks at Rohrbaugh might be able to see if your serial number was within the range of pistols effected.
Bill
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I wish I knew how many pistols were effected by this bad lot of metal and if mine was included in that batch.
I am going to say that the brothers Rohrbaugh are trying to Figure" this out also.. ;)
I have NO reason NOT to think that we will know-when they know-that there may be a "range" of serial #s that may be problematic..
I believe that this "blip" will be resolved to everyones satisfaction.. :)
I am shooting mine till I hear otherwise!! ;D 8)
Brenden
my 2 cents
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FYI: my R-9 slide cracked after about 350 rounds. The brothers "R" took care of it for me in a very quick and professional manner. My serial # is in the R59x range.
Ed
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The first crack started with Zamboni on 7/2/05
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1120340669
the pictures are no longer on the thread - haven't heard from him in a long time.
The cracks appeared on SS#:
531
584
59X
mid 900s
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Just got my R9s back today. When I last reported, Eric called me the morning they received it. That afternoon I received two calls from Karl to discuss the crack and my experience with Golden Saber ammo. They replaced the slide, did some testing and were ready to ship it back to me the next day. I actually had them delay shipping due to my travel schedule. Certainly no complaints on my part. They acknowledged a problem, dealt with it quickly and appropriately, and gave me more personal attention than I expected. My conversations with Karl were very informative and I appreciated the time he was willing to spend. I will cover some points on the Golden Saber in that thread. Thanks to all for input on this topic.
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This is odd. I sent my gun to Rohrbaugh a week before Bob, yet I still haven't received it back. (They've had it fully two weeks today.)
Time to call Maria . . .
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She said she'd have Karl call me back today.
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Maria just called me back (Karl is in the weeds) to tell me that I should have my gun next Tuesday. They have been waiting for a shipment of slides with sights. It came, and Karl and/or Eric is re-doing my gun this afternoon. Rohrbaugh can't ship tomorrow (Friday), though, so it'll go out Monday.
I told her I appreciated their concern, and that they should take the time they need as I'd rather have a good job than a fast job! She said it would be no problem, and wished me a happy holiday and a nice weekend.
Good - I can plan to head over to UPS Tuesday evening. :)
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Had a pleasant and long chat with Eric recently - all seems to be going great - and oh my - what would they do without Maria, bless her.
Much in the pipeline it seems but - no real news for all until close to Shot Show. ;)
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Man oh man! Cracked slides! Oh well! I'm still savin' my pennies and nickels to get me a R9s. Then I gots ta get me a Hedly holster ta go with it. Hmmm. Better starts saving the dimes and quarters also. ;D
Gramps
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Gramps,
It should be just fine. I've never had any problems with mine, even though it has seen a variety of ammunition brands.
The majority feeling here is that any problems will be corrected by the factory.
You will enjoy it. Just like a P3AT, you barely know it's in your pocket.
Bill
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That's the truth! I can't wait till mine comes back on Tuesday!
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I am looking for ideas for ammo in my R9S which should arrive tomorrow. I know about gold dot and magsafe. How about Federal and Hornady, some nice bullets there or are they too powerful for this little pistol? Also, how about Double Tap and CorBon - are they too powerful?
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There are lots of threads on this board on ammo. Karl Rohrbaugh has personally recommended WIN STHPs to me.
DT and Cor-Bon don't seem like standard pressure 9x19 to me. IIRC, they're both +P. Rohrbaughs are not to be used with +P or +P+ ammo.
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Well, I finally got a call back from Karl Rohrbaugh this morning.
This was my fourth call from him to date.
He apologized for the delay, and though he offered no explanation for the malfunctions (consistent failures to feed, trouble with slide retraction) of my returned R-9S, he admitted that the gun just "doesn't work for some people", citing the experience of an experienced IPSC-shooter friend who never could get the gun to work, and again offering me a full refund. (I'd sent a copy of my original retail receipt earlier, when he'd called and offered a refund even though he hadn't tested the returned gun at that time).
I accepted the offer, since I must admit I've lost faith in the little gun as a BUG or primary weapon, personally.
I believe the R-9S is a good little pistol, generally quite well made, but suited to a certain limited range of user characteristics. I never could get mine to feed reliably when shooting with a two-handed grip, though it worked much more reliably when shooting it with one hand (?), in spite of the fact that my two-hand grip doesn't involve touching the slide.
In any event, Mr. Rohrbaugh was accomodating and courteous, and I have nothing but respect for him and his products and his manner of doing business.
I'm offering brand new parts and holsters for sale, anyway, in the Classifieds section of the BB.
Best to all here.
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I'm sorry that it didn't work for you, SAWBONES. I know you gave it a good try.
Perhaps we should ask a friend to shoot the pistol whenever there are problems, to see if they are repeated.
Bill
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Bill, good idea.
Tom
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FWIW, I had a friend try mine, same problems.
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Well, sorry it didn't work out for you, amigo. Hope to see you around the 'net!
My R9s should be delivered tomorrow (Karl wasn't thrilled with the way it went together last week, though it was working 100%, so he kept it a while longer - fine with me, I'd always rather have a good job than a fast one ;) ), so I will be able to try out the new slide, etc. this weekend.
I'm pretty excited - can't wait to have it back. :)
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Dave,
The "increase" since the move may be true, but beware of the other factors -- the factory is probably shipping a lot more guns since the move, word of this forum is spreading, membership of this forum is up, etc. I am not sure you can draw any scientific correlation relating to the timing of the factory move.
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Well, now I'm really excited.
Eric Rohrbaugh just called and talked to me for 12 minutes to let me know what he's done with my gun (he says it's a great shooter, though he initially chuckled at the ugly grip tape I had put on the lovely carbon fiber stocks). He said he was bummed that I'd had this slide crack problem, especially since the R9s was a gift from my wife. Hey, I understand that stuff happens with any product - even gems like the R9s.
I just can't wait to have the little masterpiece back. ;D Tomorrow!
By the way, I think it was certainly classy of Eric to call. What other product gives you this level of concern and service from the manufacturer (in the extremely unlikely event of a problem)? Honestly, I can't think of one. And all for a product that costs less than half what a semi-custom 1911 costs . . . man, no matter the Rohrbaughs have more business than they can handle! :)
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I'll have to admit it's a pretty high class operation. I hope it comes early tomorrow!
Bill
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Sawbones,
I am truly sorry that the pup did not work out for you.. :(
Glad that the service given was up to your expectations though.. :)
Erich,
I hope your pup comes back as you expect and shoots flawlessly to your aim!! ;D
The R Bros are a class act-that is for sure.. 8)
Brenden
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IT'S BACK! ;D
Off to the range . . .
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Fingers X'd Erich :) Will await your feedback.
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Aw, the heck with the range. If it worked for Eric, it'll work for Erich. ;)
I just loaded it up and put it in my pocket. I'll try it out on Saturday, if I make it out there.
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way to go Erich!!! I bet it fills good in your pocket.
Tom
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Glad you got it back, Erich. All will be well.