The Rohrbaugh Forum

Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: backupr9 on February 10, 2012, 03:53:07 PM

Title: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: backupr9 on February 10, 2012, 03:53:07 PM: I left a message at Maria's number this a.m. re: info on what was done to my R9 Covert which was failing to feed and finally got stuck with the slide about 3/4 inch open (I got it to close and sent it back for repair). Karl very kindly called me back this afternoon to explain what was done. In the process, I related the problem with the stripped grip screw. (See my prior "help" post for details of that problem). Explanations as follow:

1. He said that the firing pin retainer was the culprit, only the "2nd out of 6000" documented. It was out of speck, rubbing on the slide (accounting for the failures to feed) and catching (failure to return to battery). He replaced it with an in-spec piece, replaced with a stronger extractor, and I think generally cleaned things up. Don't know if the trip to Wilson Combat for the Covert upgrade could have had anything to do with the problem.

2. He gave me a UPS number and asked me to sentd the pistol back ASAP so he could take care of the screw problem. He said they use the lighter steel screw because people over-tighten the screws, and when the gun comes back they have to re-thread the stipped threads in the aluminum frame. Word to the wise, use a little locktite blue, and re-tighten after each use if necessary, but don't overcrank those screws!

He is a great guy to shoot the breeze with. I feel a lot better about my pistol for carry knowing what the problem was and what was done. I'll put a hundred more rounds through it and start carrying again if all works well.

Suggest anyone who has taken down their pistol gently push on the firing pin retainer to see if it moves or rotates, especially if you have FTF and don't think you are limp-wristing the shots.
Thanks to all for the help on the previous post, and thank you Karl if you "are listening!"
John
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Z on February 10, 2012, 04:06:36 PM: I am glad Karl put you mind at ease.
I know it can be a frustrating situation to be in.

They do offer excellent customer service! :)
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: kjtrains on February 10, 2012, 06:31:39 PM: backup. Thanks for the update. :)
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: BlueC2 on February 10, 2012, 06:33:54 PM: The fact that the founder of the company called you personally makes me very proud to own Rohrbaughs!
-Ryan
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: tracker on February 10, 2012, 07:12:48 PM: backupr9,

Did I understand you correctly when you said that the factory uses light weight steel screws because we, the customers, have a tendency to overtorque the screws? As many here know I had a screw head failure at the range while firing and I had never touched the screws with a driver.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on February 10, 2012, 07:31:58 PM: Quote from: tracker on February 10, 2012, 07:12:48 PM

backupr9,

Did I understand you correctly when you said that the factory uses light weight steel screws because we, the customers, have a tendency to overtorque the screws? As many here know I had a screw head failure at the range while firing and I had never touched the screws with a driver.

I guess if you are satisfied backupr9 I am glad for you. As far as I am concerned it is time for Karl to stop talking his way out of this problem and fix the design which is causing it. This problem pops up about 5 times a year on the forum and who knows how many other times which aren't discussed here.

I have had no problems with my grip screws. I use 'Yankee's alloy screws' and tighten every couple of magazines fired. As ridiculous as that sounds, that has been my solution. Of all the guns I own and shoot, this is the first time I have heard of this problem.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: backupr9 on February 10, 2012, 07:54:33 PM: Apparently not all are as gentle with the screws...there have been multiple returns to the factory with stripped threads in the aluminum frame due to over-torquing the screws. I have John's screws but have a similar set that came with the VZ carbon fiber grips, and have been careful not to over-tighten. I, too, use a little Loctite blue and re-tighten as needed after each range session.

Some firearms, like some cars and most women are high maintenance, but worth it. When there are problems, sometimes it's the horse and sometimes it's the rider. So far, for me, it seems that the horse was the problem, but I'm hoping that all will be better. I do love the weight, the feel, the way it sits on my hip at 4 o'clock in a good piece of leather, so I'm going to give her a little slack. The plain Jane R9s that I sold last winter never gave me a minute's trouble...wish I had kept it also.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: tracker on February 10, 2012, 08:04:39 PM: Well said.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Robar233 on February 10, 2012, 08:21:45 PM: Backup9,

Thanks for the update it is good information to have. I am very glad Karl called you, that does speak well for the company and the product.

Many pistols have there own little quirks about assembly/diss-assembly the R9 is no exception. Given that it is such a small frame and is taking a fair amount of recoil; the fact that grip screws might come loose should not be a surprise to anyone. If it happens to your gun use the Loctite and be done with it.

I have seen my share of sights and safety/decocking levers falling off of big name brand duty pistols to know that stuff happens. I got rid of two pistols of a competitor of the R9 because they turned out to be to "quirky" for me.

Is the R9 the perfect EDC gun, not in my opinion. I am not a huge 9mm fan, I think bigger is better. But it is the best thing that I have found for EDC. I have not had ANY failures or screws coming loose in 120 rounds. I will put some Loctite on before my next 60 round range date this spring.

I guess a 9mm in the pocket every day is better than a .40 or .45 in the safe any day.

Robar233
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: BlueC2 on February 10, 2012, 08:33:26 PM: I remember reading a post once but cant remember who said this but these are some words to live be with respect to adjusting grip screws:

Use a small 1/16 "L" shaped allen wrench. Hold the long part of the wrench and insert the short part when loosing screws, and this is the important part flip the wrench around and hold the small part and insert the long part when tightening the screws. This will significantly limit the amount of torque you can achieve when tightening the screws.

Also, as others have said use loctite blue.

-Ryan
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: tracker on February 10, 2012, 09:00:32 PM: The best description I heard a long time ago is,"finger tight." This has nothing to do with the long end or the short end but just common sense. Also, as has been said many times here loose screws are not the issue.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: C0untZer0 on February 11, 2012, 01:34:43 AM: Mistakes can happen, but when I hear stories like this I have confidence in Carl and his company.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on February 11, 2012, 07:55:41 AM: I still feel the whole problem could be aleviated with a simple design change. Is this asking too much from a $1200.00 pistol? No one else has this trouble that I have heard of.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Richard S on February 11, 2012, 09:35:10 AM: I have previously posted my preference for using rubber mini O-rings rather than Loctite to secure the grip screws on all of my handguns. I purchased an unmarked assortment through eBay and just pick and choose from the lot to find the right size for each pistol or revolver. However, since the Rohrbaugh's grip screws have a shank diameter of 0.096" . . .

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/gripscrews.htm

. . . I believe AS-568 Dash No. 005 on this chart from Mid-Atlantic Rubber Co. would be the choice:

http://www.midatlanticrubber.com/pdf/oring_chart.pdf
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on February 11, 2012, 10:00:31 AM: As an Engineer I am beginning to find this whole thing humorous:

1. Buy your grips from VZ
2. Buy your screws from Yankee
3. Buy your o-rings from Richard S

Wow! Problem solved. There must be an easier way Karl.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Richard S on February 11, 2012, 11:07:59 AM: Quote from: MRC on February 11, 2012, 10:00:31 AM
As an Engineer I am beginning to find this whole thing humorous:

1. Buy your grips from VZ
2. Buy your screws from Yankee
3. Buy your o-rings from Richard S

Wow! Problem solved. There must be an easier way Karl.

And as a Lawyer, I calculate the potential returns from the resale of O-rings as being insufficient to justify the costs of incorporation, business licenses, capital outlay, inventory control, bookkeeping, and tax reporting.

I add custom touches to every firearm I own (except the "Crufflers"). If I were in the business of manufacturing firearms, I think I would keep things as simple as possible and leave after-market variations to the customers. Many gun owners prefer Loctite to secure their handgun grips. I personally do not, since I am prone to change out grips periodically just for the sheer he*l of it.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on February 11, 2012, 11:44:25 AM: This thread has gotten my curiosity up so I took my Kimber Solo off the nightstand and unloaded it to see how Kimber has approached fastening the plastic grips to the alloy frame.

I do not have a screw gauge here, but Kimber's grip screws take a 3/32" allen wrench and all four of the screws were tight. I have put about 300 rounds through this pistol and I have to admit that I have failed to check them. The screws are shorter than I expected and have no locktite on them that I could see.

The grips sit in an "inletted space" in the alloy frame as to make them nearly flush with the frame. This also gives them support on all four side limiting lateral movement. The steel screws are anchored in fairly large steel bushings set into and fastened to the alloy frame. Appears to be a very strong and well thought out design not unlike the steel bushings in Lightweight Commanders.

I have had no troubles, but Ammo Toad expressed that he had grip panel trouble on his Solo. Looking at this design I feel very confident with it.

While I was investigating this I also got out my Colt Pocket Nine. Colt utilized screws which require a 5/64" allen wrench and are drilled and tapped into the alloy frame similar to Rohrbaugh. I have never had any trouble with loose screws on the Colt with mavbe 500 to 1000 rounds. They use soft rubber Hogue grips which probably work like Richeard's o-rings. Just my guess.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Trailblazer on February 11, 2012, 05:07:58 PM: I like the idea of O rings. Where can I get them? What size?
Thanks
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Richard S on February 11, 2012, 05:26:09 PM: Quote from: Trailblazer on February 11, 2012, 05:07:58 PM
I like the idea of O rings. Where can I get them? What size?
Thanks

This post has a link to the source from which I purchased my assorted lot:

http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?board=3.0

I think it took less than two weeks for delivery from the UK. Or you might try the Mid-Atlantic Rubber Co. link in my previous post.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Dr. Gonzo on February 11, 2012, 08:10:27 PM: Quote from: MRC on February 11, 2012, 10:00:31 AM
As an Engineer I am beginning to find this whole thing humorous:

1. Buy your grips from VZ
2. Buy your screws from Yankee
3. Buy your o-rings from Richard S

Wow! Problem solved. There must be an easier way Karl.

there is an easier way:

1. use the factory grips/ factory screws with a "drop" of blue loctite and snug them up after trip to said range.

2. use VZ grips/ VZ screws with a "drop" of blue loctite and snug them up after trip to said range.

is it that difficult? ???
A couple of guys have a issue with screw-heads stripping (all the stories vary i.e. : too tight, too much loctite, i made a whoops...) and it becomes an inherent design flaw on the "thousand dollar gun" which is completely unacceptable b/c it's a "thousand dollar gun".

I remember last year i was shooting trap with my Beretta AL391, and part of the stock cracked. 400 rounds through the gun and a crack. i called Beretta and reminded them i payed 1150.00 out the door, didn't get through the second case of remington gun-club lights and the stock cracked. they said to send back the stock and they would send a new one...2 weeks go by and i was a happy camper with a new butt-stock. A part failed on the gun, it's still worth every penny of 1150.00, and doesn't make me wonder about it's obvious design flaws or question it's quality. If Karl stands by the R9 and calls you directly, that speaks volumes. I wonder what Mr. Beretta was doing that was so important that he couldn't call me ::)
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: hoserack on February 11, 2012, 08:20:44 PM: Just cleaned my R9 today and used a drop of blue loc tite on each screw.
I torqued them in really tight though, used the long side.
Will this mess something up?
Also since I put loc tite on screws do I still need to retighten screws after range time?
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on February 11, 2012, 08:59:01 PM: Dr Gonzo said

"there is an easier way:

1. use the factory grips/ factory screws with a "drop" of blue loctite and snug them up after trip to said range.

2. use VZ grips/ VZ screws with a "drop" of blue loctite and snug them up after trip to said range.

is it that difficult?
A couple of guys have a issue with screw-heads stripping (all the stories vary i.e. : too tight, too much loctite, i made a whoops...) and it becomes an inherent design flaw on the "thousand dollar gun" which is completely unacceptable b/c it's a "thousand dollar gun"."

The method you are promoting has caused lots of trouble with more than a couple of guys here. This is the method used at the Factory and backupr9 just stripped out the head of these tiny screws warranting another trip back to the factory even using added heat to soften the locktite.

I believe it is an inherent design flaw(tiny, soft screws without bushings) and it is unacceptable in a $300 gun let alone a $1200 gun.

Steel screws in an alloy frame without bushings is bad design especially when #3 screw are used.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: yankee2500 on February 11, 2012, 09:15:02 PM: Quote from: Dr. Gonzo on February 11, 2012, 08:10:27 PM
Quote from: MRC on February 11, 2012, 10:00:31 AM
As an Engineer I am beginning to find this whole thing humorous:

1. Buy your grips from VZ
2. Buy your screws from Yankee
3. Buy your o-rings from Richard S

Wow! Problem solved. There must be an easier way Karl.

there is an easier way:

1. use the factory grips/ factory screws with a "drop" of blue loctite and snug them up after trip to said range.

2. use VZ grips/ VZ screws with a "drop" of blue loctite and snug them up after trip to said range.

is it that difficult? ???
A couple of guys have a issue with screw-heads stripping (all the stories vary i.e. : too tight, too much loctite, i made a whoops...) and it becomes an inherent design flaw on the "thousand dollar gun" which is completely unacceptable b/c it's a "thousand dollar gun".

I remember last year i was shooting trap with my Beretta AL391, and part of the stock cracked. 400 rounds through the gun and a crack. i called Beretta and reminded them i payed 1150.00 out the door, didn't get through the second case of remington gun-club lights and the stock cracked. they said to send back the stock and they would send a new one...2 weeks go by and i was a happy camper with a new butt-stock. A part failed on the gun, it's still worth every penny of 1150.00, and doesn't make me wonder about it's obvious design flaws or question it's quality. If Karl stands by the R9 and calls you directly, that speaks volumes. I wonder what Mr. Beretta was doing that was so important that he couldn't call me ::)

The problem with using loctite on the factory Stainless screws and then trying to remove them is it can lead to the head stripping out because the Stainless is soft. By using Alloy Steel screws you minimize this issue.
Sending the gun back to the factory on your dime is pretty expensive for a screw removal that in all likelihood may have been avoided if the factory had used alloy screws or even a larger size screw.

A cracked stock is a little different type of issue because it's not man made, unless you had a plastic stock, which i doubt.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Jack_F on February 11, 2012, 09:52:07 PM: Quote from: hoserack on February 11, 2012, 08:20:44 PM
Just cleaned my R9 today and used a drop of blue loc tite on each screw.
I torqued them in really tight though, used the long side.
Will this mess something up?
Also since I put loc tite on screws do I still need to retighten screws after range time?

I just changed my stainless screws with a new set from Rohrbaugh. They had been in and out of the gun for eight years. I have NEVER used locktite and they have NEVER came lose. I examined them under magnification they were starting to round out but still worked. If I have to use loctite on any of my guns I will sell or trade them off. I have shot over a 100 rounds in a single practice session.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: hoserack on February 11, 2012, 10:16:34 PM: I have shot 1000 rounds at least out of my R9 with no problems.
I have had to tighten screws every other cleaning.
I recently stripped a screw out.
I was able to back it out and I replaced that one and loc tited them all in today.

1. I have always tightened them as far as I could without stripping the screws. Nothing seems to have mal functioned so far.
2. Will the loc tite hold or should I try to tighten them after shooting still?
3. What gets damaged by over tightening the screws?
4. What will I have to do to back out screws now that I have used loc tite?
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: tracker on February 11, 2012, 10:26:27 PM: Just buy John's screws, a Hudy driver, or maybe use the o-rings on the factory screws, no loc-tite; and fuggedaboutit--enough already. All you have to do is gently retighten once in awhile.

What you have to do to back out the screws as you described is to use the Hudy driver and if that is a problem, put a hot soldering iron on the screw head for a few seconds and that should loosen the loc-tite; that is what worked for me.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Dr. Gonzo on February 12, 2012, 07:34:20 AM: Quote from: yankee2500 on February 11, 2012, 09:15:02 PM

The problem with using loctite on the factory Stainless screws and then trying to remove them is it can lead to the head stripping out because the Stainless is soft. By using Alloy Steel screws you minimize this issue.
Sending the gun back to the factory on your dime is pretty expensive for a screw removal that in all likelihood may have been avoided if the factory had used alloy screws or even a larger size screw.

A cracked stock is a little different type of issue because it's not man made, unless you had a plastic stock, which i doubt.

ok, i gotcha on the alloy screws now! ;) I should have said that i use the Loctite only when i shoot it at the range. Apart from that, i wouldn't put it on and leave it. Then after i shoot i snug them up.

believe it or not, it was a plastic stock. One of those Dick's sporting goods specials...Black Synthetic w/ Nickel Receiver. Crack was right at the start of the grip/ meeting the rear of the receiver.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Robar233 on February 12, 2012, 09:07:20 AM: I have the C/C in hand and will order the below items today!

MRC Sig Sauer has started shipping their P229's with Loctite on the screws from the factory due to the fact they loosen up. I think any small to mid sized aluminum frame pistol, of significant caliber, is going to be prone to this problem. I am not an engineer like some here but I have been to several factory schools to work on different firearms for 25 years. This is just a factor of the forces and materials used. I don't think you can re-engineer this problem away. Just figure out the best solution for you and stick with it.

Robar233
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on February 12, 2012, 09:46:23 AM: Quote from: Robar233 on February 12, 2012, 09:07:20 AM
I have the C/C in hand and will order the below items today!

MRC Sig Sauer has started shipping their P229's with Loctite on the screws from the factory due to the fact they loosen up. I think any small to mid sized aluminum frame pistol, of significant caliber, is going to be prone to this problem. I am not an engineer like some here but I have been to several factory schools to work on different firearms for 25 years. This is just a factor of the forces and materials used. I don't think you can re-engineer this problem away. Just figure out the best solution for you and stick with it.

Robar233

I just happen to have my 229 sitting on the table beside my desk. I have never had any rouble with the screws so I have never looked at it. It appears that there are no bushings looking into the mag well. The plastic grips wrap around the backstrap so when the 40 cal or 357 goes off it recoils into the grips and really not putting much force on the grip screws. I am not going to remove the screws but they are a large pan-head type.

I do not have trouble with locktite. I have trouble with the soft, #3 screws that they use. I found that Rohrbaugh's OEM grips to be less than desirable and wanted to replace them as a large number of owners do and this has been a continuing problem for them.

How many forums have long threads on grip screw removal?

Using soft screws so the owners don't strip out the frame holes? You have to be kidding.

You don't have to be an engineer to see something is wrong and has a simple solution if you care to solve it. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: JohnBT on February 12, 2012, 11:00:37 PM: I bought a used R9 5 years ago - R6xx fwiw - and the screws would not budge, so I've left them alone. I shoot it regularly and carry it everyday and it doesn't appear to me that the grips need to be removed in order to keep the gun in good working order.

The design seems just fine so far.

John
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: tracker on February 12, 2012, 11:12:18 PM: You're good to go, John, but I would recommend replacing the screws to avoid the dissimilar metal corrosion possibilty. You can do this without removing the grips.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: JohnBT on February 20, 2012, 02:55:00 PM: But they don't want to move. I have new screws, quality wrenches and I weigh 200 pounds, but they won't move. If they're that happy where they are I won't resort to heat, they can stay there.

I've carried the gun everyday since early 2007 and figure I've more than gotten my money's worth. It was used too, so maybe the first owner got carried away with some kind of locktite.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: tracker on February 20, 2012, 03:26:46 PM: So be it. Mine were happy, too, until one of the screw heads failed at the range.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: kjtrains on February 20, 2012, 10:56:46 PM: Tracker's right. Could be trouble down the road, so to speak!
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: C0untZer0 on February 21, 2012, 09:36:59 AM: I thought I read somewhere that the grips are necesary for the pistol to function? Is that correct? So if a screw comes lose the pistol is going to stop firing?
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: kjtrains on February 21, 2012, 09:39:25 AM: Quote from: C0untZer0 on February 21, 2012, 09:36:59 AM
I thought I read somewhere that the grips are necesary for the pistol to function? Is that correct? So if a screw comes lose the pistol is going to stop firing?

The right side grip keeps the trigger spring in place. Should that grip become loose, the trigger spring can and probably will malfunction.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Z on February 21, 2012, 09:47:47 AM: Not only the spring, the trigger bar can slide out of place causing a malfunction as well if the right grip is loose.

I check the grip screws every week or two on my EDC R9 even if i do not shoot it.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: kjtrains on February 21, 2012, 09:55:06 AM: Here's what the right grip controls in relation to the trigger. Keep those grip screws tight. :)

A partial comment by R9SCarry:

along with the transfer bar and associated spring. It is this latter that is retained by the right grip panel...thus the reason for said panel not being allowed to loosen.

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/r9-detail-pics.htm
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Brenden on March 04, 2012, 01:20:40 AM: I have not had a problem with any of the pups that I have had,including my EDC since 05..

I do check from time to time to see if they have loosened..
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: backupr9 on March 04, 2012, 11:29:49 AM: Still awaiting return of my R9 Covert...Karl emailed and said they had the tools to remove the stripped screw, but needed some kind of an insert which he purchased. It was supposed to be delivered to him Friday (we hope) and he anticipated getting the pistol back to me sometime this week. Here's hoping!
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: yankee2500 on March 04, 2012, 09:13:42 PM: Quote from: backupr9 on March 04, 2012, 11:29:49 AM
Still awaiting return of my R9 Covert...Karl emailed and said they had the tools to remove the stripped screw, but needed some kind of an insert which he purchased. It was supposed to be delivered to him Friday (we hope) and he anticipated getting the pistol back to me sometime this week. Here's hoping!

The insert is probably a Heli-coil we used them with Aluminum parts when I worked in the Aero Space industry.

http://www.emhart.com/brands/heli-coil
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: backupr9 on March 04, 2012, 11:26:10 PM: Never heard of Heli-coil...we apparently don't need them in the OR or intensive care unit, so I'll take your word for it John. I'm glad I could give Karl an excuse to buy one though.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: chameleon on March 05, 2012, 07:19:43 AM: Heli-Coils have been around for many years. I live very close to a factory that survives on soley manufacturing them, so there is a need.

Is there a use for Never-Seize on these grip screws? It works as an inhibitor for two dissimilar metals. I have used it for many years on my spark plug threads and other nuts and bolts that may give grieve to remove.
I know the problem I'm reading is that fact that the grips like to loosen themselves, but the Never-Seize would allow a little more torque to tighten them.
Currently I have VZ grips on my R9, VZ grip screws, no lock tight at all, I have checked the screws ( just yesterday actually) periodically and they are tight.
I am now concerned from reading here, if I do not remove the screws on occasion, the screws may be permanently attached to the frame.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: backupr9 on March 05, 2012, 10:22:08 AM: I'm not sure that steel would react with aluminum anyway, but am certainly no expert. My problem was factory placement of what appears to be locktite white on my grip screws when it was returned after a replacement of an out of spec firing pin retainer. In trying to get my VZ's back on (Maria's letter suggested that the pistol should be original, ie: no fancy grips, when returned to the factory, so I put the originals back on) I managed to get three of the grips screws loose, but buggered the 4th. Karl has kindly agreed to fix this for me. I really think the answer is to use Yankee2500's aftermarket screws, but simply continue to tighten them after each use or 50 rounds if necessary. It's not a big deal as long as you are aware of the problem.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on March 05, 2012, 10:30:02 AM: I have VZ grips on mine and Yankee's screws. The front (muzzle end) screws are loose after 7 shots. I usually do about thee magazines full when I shoot it and then retighten. I too am afraid to use locktite.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: kjtrains on March 05, 2012, 10:36:31 AM: When John gets the O-Rings in stock, may be a good time to try those.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on March 05, 2012, 10:55:11 AM: That's my plan.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Z on March 05, 2012, 12:13:25 PM: MRC

I am also aprehensive about using locktite.
I just make certain the grip screws are tight even of I don't shoot it.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on March 05, 2012, 01:46:41 PM: That is how I have been handling it Z.

One thing I do know is if I had somewhere north of $1700.00 in a near new Covert and they were putting Heli-coils in my frame from a factory screw up, I'd be pissed. Maybe I am just hard to get a long with.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Z on March 05, 2012, 02:01:03 PM: I would have the same reaction.

Fortunatly I only had 1 problem with a cheap allen wrench. I removed the screw witha torx bit and purchased a HUDY precision allen whench and have been AOK ever since! :)
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: tracker on March 05, 2012, 02:19:39 PM: imo, Loctite is part of the problem not part of the solution.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Z on March 05, 2012, 03:02:05 PM: Tracker
I could not agree more!

I have never had any problems without using locktite other than an allen wrench issue.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Z on March 05, 2012, 03:03:30 PM: I will try John O ring solution. I do not see it causing any issues.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: backupr9 on March 05, 2012, 05:35:32 PM: Quote from: MRC on March 05, 2012, 01:46:41 PM
That is how I have been handling it Z.

One thing I do know is if I had somewhere north of $1700.00 in a near new Covert and they were putting Heli-coils in my frame from a factory screw up, I'd be pissed. Maybe I am just hard to get a long with.

From this I am assuming that the heli-coil is not just a screw removal system, but an insert into a buggered screw hole in the frame. If so, I am also an unhappy camper since the problem was caused by factory use of a permanent type of loctite which must have been, as well, over torqued to cause the damage?
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: tracker on March 05, 2012, 06:08:42 PM: Loctite is a band-aid to a weak screw design issue.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Jack_F on March 05, 2012, 07:09:25 PM: Quote from: backupr9 on March 05, 2012, 05:35:32 PM
Quote from: MRC on March 05, 2012, 01:46:41 PM
That is how I have been handling it Z.

One thing I do know is if I had somewhere north of $1700.00 in a near new Covert and they were putting Heli-coils in my frame from a factory screw up, I'd be pissed. Maybe I am just hard to get a long with.

From this I am assuming that the heli-coil is not just a screw removal system, but an insert into a buggered screw hole in the frame. If so, I am also an unhappy camper since the problem was caused by factory use of a permanent type of loctite which must have been, as well, over torqued to cause the damage?
I don't think there is enough thickness for a heli-coil...here is how a large one is installed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFYa6sjhh_E
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Richard S on March 05, 2012, 08:16:23 PM: As one who has long advocated the use of O-rings, permit me to post this photo of one about to be installed on R9 No. 132 wearing a set of VZ grips. Also shown are five spares for use in due course:

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/RichardS/RohrbaughGripScrewO-Rings.jpg)
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: yankee2500 on March 05, 2012, 08:28:51 PM: Quote from: Jack_F on March 05, 2012, 07:09:25 PM
Quote from: backupr9 on March 05, 2012, 05:35:32 PM
Quote from: MRC on March 05, 2012, 01:46:41 PM
That is how I have been handling it Z.

One thing I do know is if I had somewhere north of $1700.00 in a near new Covert and they were putting Heli-coils in my frame from a factory screw up, I'd be pissed. Maybe I am just hard to get a long with.

From this I am assuming that the heli-coil is not just a screw removal system, but an insert into a buggered screw hole in the frame. If so, I am also an unhappy camper since the problem was caused by factory use of a permanent type of loctite which must have been, as well, over torqued to cause the damage?
I don't think there is enough thickness for a heli-coil...here is how a large one is installed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFYa6sjhh_E

You can install a helicoil in any thickness that can be threaded.
The helicoil is actually stronger than the aluminum and that's the reason they use them in the Aerospace industry, when you put the screw in it's a steel to steel contact and not steel to Aluminum.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: MRC on March 05, 2012, 08:48:43 PM: Quote from: tracker on March 05, 2012, 06:08:42 PM

Loctite is a band-aid to a weak screw design issue.

Amen!
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: backupr9 on March 06, 2012, 10:59:44 AM: Thanks Jack...interesting video and a good explanation. Re: loctite...don't see much of a problem with loctite blue, but it really doesn't hold for long. NEVER use the white. I'm going with the o-rings on John's screws when I get this back.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: C0untZer0 on March 06, 2012, 11:01:59 AM: The O-ring sits between the screw head and the grip ?
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Jack_F on March 06, 2012, 12:58:24 PM: Quote from: backupr9 on March 06, 2012, 10:59:44 AM
Thanks Jack...interesting video and a good explanation. Re: loctite...don't see much of a problem with loctite blue, but it really doesn't hold for long. NEVER use the white. I'm going with the o-rings on John's screws when I get this back.
I quess I must be lucky....I have had my R9 for eight years and have never had the screws come lose and never have used lock tight....I just snug them up without much tork.....It is my opinion that people over tighten and "stretch or expand", whatever you want to call it, the threads...once you do that they will not stay tight on their own....JMO
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Richard S on March 06, 2012, 02:59:45 PM: Quote from: C0untZer0 on March 06, 2012, 11:01:59 AM
The O-ring sits between the screw head and the grip ?

Affirmative.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: eye_spy on March 10, 2012, 08:46:09 PM: Where can I buy the o-rings for the grip screws?
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: kjtrains on March 10, 2012, 08:51:44 PM: Quote from: eye_spy on March 10, 2012, 08:46:09 PM
Where can I buy the o-rings for the grip screws?

John (yankee2500) here on the Forum will be the source, when he gets them in stock. He can give further info when available.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: backupr9 on March 14, 2012, 09:29:07 AM: Well, back to my original post. Remember I had sent the Covert R9 to the factory which found an "out of spec" firing pin retainer to be the cause of failures to feed and breech locked open. It was repaired and returned, but I could not get one of the four grip screws out (had trouble with the other three which had a white glue on them...loctite white?). Stripped the screw eventually. Karl kindly sent me a UPS number and I returned the pistol at his expense. After several weeks and after sending off for a "tool to do a screwectomy" (medical humor in his words) they were unable to solve the problem. They have replaced the frame with a new one (new serial #), noting the that finish on the frame is factory even on the Coverts, and they have tuned, polished, etc. everything else to Covert standards. Should arrive here tomorrow 2 day UPS. Looking forward to getting it back...I'll get a few hundred rounds through it and start to carry again (I hope!). I'll give followup.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Z on March 14, 2012, 09:52:32 AM: Excellent info backup.

Good luck with the break in! ;D
Keep us posted.
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: kjtrains on March 14, 2012, 10:05:25 AM: Great news, backup. Thanks for the update! :)
Title: Re: Help Please, updated (Karl called)
Post by: Jack_F on March 14, 2012, 12:16:01 PM: They always try to make things right....nice to have a business owner who really cares........... :)