Ammo Time Again

[groo]

Groo here
 I use win nt with good results.
 Mr "K" said that they will round out in test media.
  Your cci may be similar but i doint know.
   to shatter the bullet need to be brittle so they may not
  deforme as the sand maybe to soft.

[Reinz]

I think what groo is saying is right.  The frangible is designed to shatter/break up, when it hits hard targets.

I was under the impression the frangible was designed for shooting at steel targets to reduce back splatter;  and carried over into to street use as to prevent ricochets, similar to Glaser safety slugs.  But , not like Glasers which explode(for lack of a better word for a forceful release of pellets) inside of tissue.


Reinz

[Seven]

That is my thought, as well.  I should get a chance to try the ammo out on some hard targets this week, since the weather has started to warm up again here in central MO.  

It is interesting, since you see different uses of the term "frangible" - from everything for use on steel targets in environments where you want the round to basically disintegrate - to something like the Black Talon which is designed to create a more lethal wound by skivving off shards.

7

[Reinz]

I know what you mean.  
If you get a chance to shoot some steel straight on, I'd like to hear what actually happened first hand.      I've heard stories that the Frangible ammo is supposed to turn to a dust or powder  when it hits steel solid.

Please let us know.

Reinz

[jarcher]

I have shot frangible ammo from my R9 and other pistols.  I use Federal Ballisticlean (or some similar name).  It's lead free.  It does indeed turn right to dust when it hits a steel target.  It also has a much lower ventelation requirement and does not leave lead around.

I did this at Sig's indoor range in NH.  It worked fine out of my R9 and other pistols.

[Reinz]

Thanks for confirming that jarcher.  It's good to actually hear that first hand.

Did take any training courses at the Sig Training Center as well?


Reinz

[Seven]

The ammo I got is definitely sintered copper.

Took it to the range today, and went through about 50 rounds of the stuff, through three different guns to try and gauge felt recoil.  It fed and fired just fine through my R9, a Steyr S9, and a Kel-tec Sub2000 carbine.  In each case the loads of the Speer 90 grain frangible felt 'hotter' than 115 grain WWB, which I was using as comparison.

First was a comparison of penetration through wood.  The frangible did a little better than the WWB, going straight through a 6"x6" treated post, then through two layers of 2"x6" pine, coming to a stop in a third 2x6 a little deeper (just starting to push out the back of the final layer).

Second was to fire the frangible into a solid steel plate.  I set the plate up so that a piece of wood was directly below it, in order that I might see if the round powdered as I thought it might.  It did - leaving a fine dust of copper particles embedded in the wood.

I'm still thinking that it might be interesting to test this stuff into  gelatin (got a line on some from a buddy, may give that a go later this year), see how deeply it penetrates compared to more traditional self-defense rounds.

I've also done a bit of further research into this kind of bullet, and would point anyone interested to the following sites:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6694888.html
http://www.miragetechnologies.net/SPEER%20Lawman%20RHT%20Ammunition.htm
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/frangible+bullet
http://www.ammoandarms.com/sinterfire_bullets.htm

I've also seen some information indicating that these types of rounds might be more effective against body armour, since the round 'sheds' the outer layer cleanly while maintaining structural coherence when it encounters kevlar fibers.  I don't know how much you can trust that, since I wasn't willing to dig too deeply into the sources for that info.

So, it looks like I have "green" ammo safe for lead-free ranges, possibly something useful for defeating kevlar.  In other words, put the stuff away for when I need it...

7

[Brenden]

Thanks for the info and the report!!

Brenden

[Seven]

My pleasure.  Since this seems to have been an 'orphan' batch of ammo by Speer, it's not likely that anyone will come across it.  But just in case someone does, they'll know what they've got.

I've been thinking it over, and am going to stash mine.  Further testing might indicate that it is indeed a lot 'hotter' a round (in terms of speed) than most 9mm available at standard pressure.   I can see where that would have advantages.  

7

[Richard S]

Seven:

It would appear that you have "broken the code" and that what you have there is indeed a batch of "orphan hot rods."  I think I would do just as you suggest and store them in a secure and controlled-humidity environment for use at lead-restricted indoor ranges, in practice with steel targets . . . and in the event the babarians ever manage to breach the city walls.  

[Reinz]

Seven - thanks for the in depth range report.  Great stuff.

Amen to Richard's words of wisdom too (above).


Reinz