The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Gunsmithing or Modifications for your Rohrbaugh => Topic started by: jaycee on October 13, 2006, 03:54:04 PM
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Hello to all, I just spoke to Karl Rohrbaugh, today. Changes on ammo selections and lube. Ii is no longer advisable to use 'Super lube' as the preferred choice of lubricant for the R9S. Any good oil e.g. militec,eezox,pf 10,otis is highly recommended instead of the 'super lube.' The preferred ammo selection- american eagle 115fmj and winchester 115gr.jhp. which you can purchase at walmart. is the ammo most recommended by Karl. In fact he advises not to use the gold dots anymore. A customer was experiencing a lot of problems with his rohrbaugh and he experimented with a lubricant made by 'Hornady' that alleviated all his problems.In other words he discontinued the use of 'Super lube' and his gun started to perform flawlessly. I hope this is the cure for those ailing r9 handguns.New company brochures will be printed,shortly, with certain recommendations. ;)
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Well - I guess after all I won't get my butt kicked - after promoting slide lube as an oil rather than grease! :D
I still have no prob re grease in the other recommended areas. Looks like I will have to soon make a change to my various files containing lube info on the FAQ. I'll hang on until it is declared as 100% ''official"
I still have 124 GD's as my carry ammo so - as long as that runs for me will probably stay with it. That said I will probably re-evaluate the Win 115's out of interest.
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Are the recomended Winchester 115GR JHP's the Silvertips or does Winchester make a non Silvertip JHP?
Mike
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I am guessing Silvertips Mike, which I think Karl has mentioned before.
You can tho get JHP in WWB offerings - well in .45acp anyways. In fact I seem to recall I did test some WWB JHP's way back.
Yes just checked and still have some - 147's.
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Yep, I test fired some Win USA 115 JHP's and they worked fine once I got the pup broken in. I just bought some more Win USA 147 JHP's last nite at Wallyworld. Those big buggers tested ok also.
YAY! I've got some Militec already! Problem solved!
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I am wondering where the heck the Fed 115s came from?Thats a FMJ correct?
OK for practice,I understand that,my pups have always liked the FMJ Winnie White Box!!
As to the superlube,I have never used as much as reccommended,no problems either way..I have tryed a couple of other lubes instead of the Mobil 1,for a cycle,no apparent difference for me..
I currently have GD 115s in my carry pup,feed fine..
Now I do understand that ammo can change from lot to lot..
If this is the case of a "fairly" big reccomendation,we as owners and potential owners,need the "poop" pretty quick..
IMO
Brenden
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Hello mike, the Winchester ammo that Karl spoke about, has been mentioned on several ammunition topics before, not on this site,but the reports of this particular ammo,is very good.I have a particular report from 'Old grandpa' shortened 'OG' stating as follows-the biggest surprise was the Winchester 115gr.'Personal Protection' USA white box. I was really impressed with expansion and penetration of this low cost ammo.Taken from a report entitled'Short barrel 9mm Hollowpoint tests.' This was a test performed by 'OG' using a Kahr pm 9. And showing pictures of the bullet expansion along with other ammo tested. The surprise was that this ammo can be obtained for about $11.00 at walmart for 50 rounds.,also taken from the report. My bottom line this is very good ammo. :)
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Yes Brenden, the Fed.American Eagle 115gr.fmj is an fmj ammo. The other Winchester referred to is an 115gr.jhp ammo.I now recall a report that I have read comparing this particular ammo with the 'Winchester silver tips' and the report stated that this low cost ammo was equal to in performance to the 'silvertips.' both made by the same Winchester Company. Karl also condemned the 'Golden Sabers' along with the 'Gold Dots.' I was distinctly told not to use the golden sabers or gold dots anymore in my gun,and to stop using the 'super lube.' My opinion is use what ever ammo works in your gun and if you do have a problem then adhere to what the gun maker is saying. :)
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Ok well,
My R9's don't like the Silvertips and they don't like the 4 types of fmj's I have tried and I am pessimistic about finding anything else that works 100% in my R9's but, I will attempt to locate 1 box each of the WWB 115GR FMJ's and 115GR JHP's and see how they do. Who knows, I have spent a small fortune trying ammo and then buying enough of the ammo that does work, it could be my luck that the WWB 115GR FMJ's and JHP's work great and are cheap to boot.
One good thing I can say about the purchase of my R9's is that I have learned a great deal about handgun ammo!!!
Mike
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For what it is worth:
Quite some time ago, someone posted an article on the North American Arms forum about how the lubricant issued by the military in Iraq was collecting sand and causing weapons to jam. Soldiers were writing to their families and asking them to send Militec. This is what I presently use on all of my guns, and is what I will use on my Rohrbaugh when I get it next week.
Glad I found this thread: I'll start reliability testing with Winchester Silvertips and stick with them if they work.
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Bill and all,
Last I heard was they were requesting graphite. Is Militec not an oil or what. Someone give me the short and sweet on Militec please. I would appreciate it.
We use Superlube at my work. It is very slick but other than that it is still just an oil. I never used it on my R9's.
Mike
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Mike,
I prefer and use Militec oil, but you can also get the grease.
When the base metal heats up, there is said to be a change in the metal, and it becomes slippery to the touch.
Typically, you apply the oil to the pistol and heat it with a hair dryer.
You will receive free samples upon request.
http://www.militec1.com/
Bill
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Bill,
I looked when you posted before on the product..
Let me know how you get a freebie??
I bought some thru Brownells awhile back and it seems to work fine,but I will always take a free sample!! ;D
Thanks,
Brenden
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Brenden - I have no link to hand but Google for Militech and if you find their site then hopefully some mention of samples. I spoke to a very helpful guy once about their grease.
Mike - AFAIK Militech is a true lubricant but they claim that additives within help an ''embedding'' effect after heating. I personally would never recommend graphite - tho I am no tribologist. It has a means of reducing friction very nicely but IMO does NOT under pressure, give the support that true lube molecules can and do.
We'd not I think want graphite 'lubricating' our bottom end auto bearings where pressures are immense. Slides will not have those loads of course but - I'll stick to true petrochemical based and synthetic oils - even Mobil1 will I feel do well too.
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Militec is ok, but it's a thicker oil than FP-10 IMHO.
I purchased a huge bottle of both and now use FP-10 exclusively on all my handguns.
Cleaning is also much quicker with FP-10 as it seems like the dirt & residue never really takes hold. I can practically wipe my 1911's clean without even using solvent as nothing builds up/cakes on.
Breakfree CLP still can't be beat on the AR.
I've shot prone in the sand with both CLP & Militec, and you have to literally wipe each part bone DRY with Militec and it still gathers a fair amount of sand on the bolt. The aerosol Breakfree is by far the best product for sand IMHO. Spray the parts down, let them drip & dry for about an hour, and re-assemble.
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Militec is ok, but it's a thicker oil than FP-10 IMHO.
I purchased a huge bottle of both and now use FP-10 exclusively on all my handguns.
Cleaning is also much quicker with FP-10 as it seems like the dirt & residue never really takes hold. I can practically wipe my 1911's clean without even using solvent as nothing builds up/cakes on.
Breakfree CLP still can't be beat on the AR.
I've shot prone in the sand with both CLP & Militec, and you have to literally wipe each part bone DRY with Militec and it still gathers a fair amount of sand on the bolt. The aerosol Breakfree is by far the best product for sand IMHO. Spray the parts down, let them drip & dry for about an hour, and re-assemble.
TXAGGIECHL,
I too use only BF CLP on the AR..
Has always worked for me,but I do not shoot in "all" conditions!!
Chris,Bill gave the site addy,I just can never find the "spot" for the free sample?!! ;D No biggie..
Brenden
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Brenden,
I can no longer find the free sample offer, except to government and troops.
I obtained mine quite some time ago by sending an email to them and requesting a free sample.
Immediately after trying the free sample, I went ahead and bought a bottle.
The only problem I ever had was when some got on the slide and it became very slippery and hard to pull back.
For what it's worth, HK recommends that you do not use such products because they might contaminate the primers. The warning was in my USP .45 owner's manual.
Bill
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[size=13] HK recommends that you do not use such products because they might contaminate the primers. [/size]
I have seen that before Bill - but to be honest - the darned gun would have to be dripping with about 10 times too much applied to cause a risk IMO ;)
Oh yes - CLP - I still make good use of that also - just not as much as I did once. My general approach to gun lube is ''less is more'' - and would rather do a wipe down and relube more often - than ''drown'' the darned things :D
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Chris,
I feel the same as you. You would have to apply an excessive amount.
I have usually treated my brand new handguns with Militec.
Bill
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Well I won't be taking my R9s anywhere near a sandbox. Mine lives it's life in it's holster and the range is reasonably clean.
I have been using TW-25B and Militec 1 on every pistol I own except the R9s for years and it has always worked quite well. I hesitate to use oil exclusively on a carry gun for two reasons. First, it tends to run off. If the gun spends lots of time riding in a holster nose down, that's where the oil will end up. Second, if the oil drips down into the magazine then it can harm your primers, making them unreliable.
So that's why I use a combination of grease and oil. I'm glad the official recomendation for superlube has been lifted. I always thought it was too thick and seemed to hold dirt. I'll use what I have left on my bicycle chain in the spring.
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jarcher,
Thanks very much for passing along the new factory recommendations about lubrication and ammunition.
I hope the literature will be updated quickly, and appear on the firearms website.
Bill
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R9S Carry,
I agree with your opinion about graphite but when it comes to the military in the field/in under fire conditions I think that it does not matter what lubricant is going to preserve your firearm the longest. You use what works and when your gun breaks you get a different one from whoever is assigned to that duty in your unit. The "average" private, if there is such, is not interested in preserving his rifle for posterity. That went out with the Korean War. I have heard of one or two people who got their very own Korean War Garand back through the CMP. But anyway, IMO in a dry dusty environment like the sandbox, graphite is a VERY GOOD lubricant for guns. After all we are not talking about a Mauser 98 or a Springfield here. Modern military arms are not designed to be rock solid as they were in WW1. They are deployed with a definate and known service life expectancy untill the expected TBO, time before overhaul is reached.
On another but related note, the M-16 is a piece of crap compared to the AK-47 or AK-74 series of rifles. Actually, the U.S. hasn't had the best service rifle since the M-1 Garand. The FN-FAL was much better than the M-14, IMO.
Mike
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I read jaycee's post then checked Rohrbaugh's website. Not that I don't trust jaycee's account, but I always like to verify things for myself.....(I am a Ronald Reagan fan!)
There is a new disassembly / lubrication manual available for download as an Adobe file.
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/downloads/DisassemblyLubeBroch.pdf
The photos showing where to put grease now say "lube with grease only!" And the caption now states [size=16]"Use quality grease on the barrel and frame as shown. It is imperative that you use grease in these areas. Failure to do so will cause the frame to wear prematurely and void your warranty. You may use quality gun oil for the rest of the firearm."[/size]
My conclusion: I'll stick with grease, though I may switch from Superlube to a name-brand gun grease. I have only enough Superlube left to last another 100 years! 8)
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On another but related note, the M-16 is a piece of crap compared to the AK-47 or AK-74 series of rifles.
Mike
I'm afraid I can't agree with you on this statement. The M-16 is one of the most reliable weapons EVER developed! It is without a doubt the most accurate service weapon out to at least 400 yards ever fielded. The early jamming problems that occured in 'Nam were related to use of ball powder instead of the IMR powder the weapon was designed around.
I carry one in harms way on duty and feel VERY SAFE! I know that it will perform if the need comes. My personal M-16 has fired OVER 25,000 rounds with only four malfuncions (2 magazine related, two DEAD primers)!
PursuitSS
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Not to pull this off topic, but I agree. I'll take a M16/AR15 any day over an AK variant when you need to make your shots count.
I've shot numerous AK's and they are very user unfriendly. Their operation; from sights, safety, stock, and magazines leave much to be desired. Not to mention your basically pissing into the wind shooting an AK beyond about 150 meters.
IMHO, an AK is at best a CQB spray & pray weapon for use when collateral damage isn't a concern (e.g. innocent 3rd parties).
Back to lubes. All this time I thought Super Lube was a specially designed gun grease, yet I just did a search and it looks like a plain-Jane all purpose synthetic grease. Not that an all purpose synthetic grease is bad; I was just expecting something a little different as I've read this really isn't that good of a grease.
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I'll take an M16 over an AK any and every day of the week. In addition to the comments above concerning powder and accuracy, many of the early Viet Nam problems with it were related to the failure to have a chrome-lined barrel. When Mcnamera’s people were insisting on deployment of the M-16, the Army, which had a few hundred years experience with firearms, insisted on some changes to the original design, including a chrome-lined barrel. These changes were denied, and the results are now well known.
I never saw combat but in training I never ever had a problem with my beat up M16. I hit the 400 meter target nearly every single time. Great firearm.
As for the R9s lube, I just cleaned all the superlube out of my R9s and replaced it with TW-25B and Militec 1. I guess I’ll have to use this change as an excuse to get to the range soon.
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Hello Sslater, if you read my post correctly, I stated that a new company's brochure will shortly be forthcoming,with new recommendations. The brochure that you downloaded is an outdated brochure. I am again stating that Karl rohrbaugh told me to discontinue use of the -super lube. He also mentioned to me that he threw away all his supplies of -super lube. Whether you want to believe what I have stated that is your choice, I did not make this up. :)
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Jaycee, The last we spoke, Karl also stated changing the recoil spring replacement scheduale to 100 rounds. Did he mention he would be listing that in the update? Im just curious. Oh and did you by any chance remind him of my grips?
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I must admit I'm a little concerned about the ammo changes. Karl has been talking about silvertips being the best choice for a long time, but I do recall him telling me that Winchester FMJ was not recomended. From a discussion with Eric I know that they make minor tweaks to the pistols over time to improve them, which is fine.
But why should the recomended ammo change, unless the ammo changes? What caused the change and why does any good quality ammo not work?
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Hello Jarcher, good question, I was waiting for someone to pose this same question. Here is the answer (by the way,during our discussion,I told him that I will be taking notes about the discussion) . He told me that his personal findings concluded that as 9mm ammo, the Gold Dots and the Remington Golden Sabers, did not come up to the actual specifications of a true 9mm ammunition. He went further to explain in technical jargon the reason and I got lost in the technical jargon. Some weeks ago, he did mention to me that he had a meeting with a particular well known ammo manufacturer to come up with ammunition that will be tailored(so to speak) to work with the R9 handgun. I do hope that I have given you a good reply to your question. :)
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Why cant the Rbros relay this info to owners?????
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Why cant the Rbros relay this info to owners?????
I'd have to agree. Just put it all out on the table so we can all get a good whiff.
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jaycee,
Ammo tailored specially for the R9, very interesting. I just wonder what a box of 50 would cost and am curious as to are the R bros going to want to get into the ammo shipping business to.
The R bros should be careful though. If word gets around that the R9 has to have a "special" and of course expensive and hard to find ammo to function reliably then demand for the gun might drop off some.
Mike
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One thing, which does not surprise me really - is that the gun has now ''matured'' and so feedback from problems and the experience of users has now enabled a reassessment of requirements, both with ammo and lube etc. Something that is probably very hard to get right entirely from the get go when the first guns came out.
It may still be hard to achieve what could be called the ''definitive'' care/maintenance regime but, looks like we are getting close.
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Mike - re ammo - one thing I would be interested to know, if in fact this could be now definitive - is the optimal OAL and bullet profile the Bros R feel is optimal for the gun. I did way back find out just how much OAL can vary and felt then that ''short'' rounds would possibly be more likely to produce feed hiccups.
I think tho providing the pup will still adequately accept FMJ inexpensive ammo for practice then a ''special'' for carry may not be too hard to take on board.
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Hello Riffraff, regarding your two statements. I do not believe that the Bros.want to get into the ammo business. Case in point, about two months ago Larry Seecamp,owner of the well known Seecamp Co. purchased a whole batch of Fed.Hydra Shocks 90 GR. for his own company,and found out that the ammo was out of specs. He could not use the ammo and shortly had "A meeting of the minds" with the federal people,they accepted back the said ammo and re-configured their production of said ammo and peace ruled over the land, once more. Remember this 90.gr ammo was the top choice for the seecamp LWS 380 at that time. This company has appoved and disapproved certain mfg.ammo based on inconsistencies in the manufacturing process . Like the Rohrbaugh the Seecamps are very ammo sensitive, both being with very close tolerances, so the slight shift in ammo specs,could cause a problem with these guns. I also tend to believe that the casings for certain type/brand ammo are not exclusively and soley manufactured by each ammo manufacturer for their own manufacturing use. There may be company XYZ manufacturing casing or parts of ammo for three different companies, so if there is a flaw in the ammo,three companies will be effected. I am not an ammo expert this is just my opinion,but I do not believe that I am incorrect in my statement. Your second statement,like the Seeecamps, the Rohrbaughs have their place with the fans that support each company, I myself own both guns and regardless of the cost of the ammo required by these guns, I will still own both of them. They are the best in my opinion relating to my specifc needs. :)
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R9S Carry,
A recomended bullet profile and cartrige OAL from Rohrbaugh might be a little tricky. For instance with the 3 loads that function perfectly in my R9's, two of them have long OAL's with a fat stubby bullet in them and the other has a very short OAL with truncated cone style bullet but is much more pointy than the usual truncated cone style. It is very strange how these 3 loads, one very different from the other two work when legions of other loads will not.
jaycee,
I am with you on R9. I like mine very much and the longer I have them the more I like them. For me the R9 is the best conceiled carry gun on the planet. The ergonomics of this gun are perfect. Size, weight, shape, looks, caliber, trigger everything is perfect.
Mike
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Riffraff, I second that emotion! ;)
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I'm willing to accept that some ammo can be out of spec and I know nothing about golden sabor, cor bon and so on. But Speer GDHP out of spec? I seriousely doubt it.
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Hello Jarcher, good question, I was waiting for someone to pose this same question. Here is the answer (by the way,during our discussion,I told him that I will be taking notes about the discussion) . He told me that his personal findings concluded that as 9mm ammo, the Gold Dots and the Remington Golden Sabers, did not come up to the actual specifications of a true 9mm ammunition. He went further to explain in technical jargon the reason and I got lost in the technical jargon. Some weeks ago, he did mention to me that he had a meeting with a particular well known ammo manufacturer to come up with ammunition that will be tailored(so to speak) to work with the R9 handgun. I do hope that I have given you a good reply to your question. :)
GEE! Wonder where that come from!? Its gettin harder and harder to bite my tongue!
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Hello Riffraff, regarding your two statements. I do not believe that the Bros.want to get into the ammo business. Case in point, about two months ago Larry Seecamp,owner of the well known Seecamp Co. purchased a whole batch of Fed.Hydra Shocks 90 GR. for his own company,and found out that the ammo was out of specs. He could not use the ammo and shortly had "A meeting of the minds" with the federal people,they accepted back the said ammo and re-configured their production of said ammo and peace ruled over the land, once more. Remember this 90.gr ammo was the top choice for the seecamp LWS 380 at that time. This company has appoved and disapproved certain mfg.ammo based on inconsistencies in the manufacturing process . Like the Rohrbaugh the Seecamps are very ammo sensitive, both being with very close tolerances, so the slight shift in ammo specs,could cause a problem with these guns. I also tend to believe that the casings for certain type/brand ammo are not exclusively and soley manufactured by each ammo manufacturer for their own manufacturing use. There may be company XYZ manufacturing casing or parts of ammo for three different companies, so if there is a flaw in the ammo,three companies will be effected. I am not an ammo expert this is just my opinion,but I do not believe that I am incorrect in my statement. Your second statement,like the Seeecamps, the Rohrbaughs have their place with the fans that support each company, I myself own both guns and regardless of the cost of the ammo required by these guns, I will still own both of them. They are the best in my opinion relating to my specifc needs. :)
Hello Jaycee, yes Seecamp had an issue with Federal ammunition, but it was in the 32 caliber. The 380 seems to be less ammo sensitive.
The LWS 32 was designed around the WW Silvertip round, but when the company changed the formula, case material, bullet, and non crimping, the LWS 32 did not respond well to the Silvertips anymore. The problem was the bullet would move inside the case, either from being dropped while in the factory carton, or while shooting.
Larry will often say that the ammo is probably the biggest cause of a firearm to malfunction.