The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Cleaning and Maintenance of the R-9 => Topic started by: icepick on December 03, 2010, 05:22:11 PM
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I introduced myself at the water cooler a couple of days ago. Shot my new Stealth this morning to mixed reviews on some failures to feed properly and such on ammo that should not have caused those, per other tests and threads. While we should expect a hand made piece in this price range to perform flawlessly, NIB is NIB as others have observed in other threads and a break in period should be expected, but short. This gun was built in third week of October. I wasn't sure where to place this question, but this seemed close.
Magazine spring deformation apparently can occur in mags stored for a time when loaded and with the spring held in max compression. Any general idea on these how long it takes for that to impact loading performance in Rohrbaugh magazines so magazines in the carry gun can be swapped out and springs 'rested' periodically?
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icepick,
I don't have a scientific answer to your question but the short time you have owned your Stealth should not be affected by magazine spring deformation. Magazine spring degradation occurs more from use than non-use. This falls in the category of "can't hurt, might help" to change out the magazines and give the springs a rest. Some do this when they change their clock time twice a year; others don't worry about it with the improved metallurgy used in springs now. I heard of a 1943 Remington 1911 that was brought back, stored with the original ammo in the same magazine for 60 years and it fired flawlessly.
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Icepick,
Glad you were able to get in some range time with the pup, but sorry to hear of the feed issues.
I have my original spring in my mag which is about two years old and is always fully loaded
and it has always functioned flawlessly with any ammo.
I don't know the answer to how long but would guess several years.
John
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Icepick. Definitely sorry to hear of your feed problems. I'm one that doesn't worry about the mag springs and haven't had any problems yet, going on two years in March.
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Hi Icepick, welcome aboard. Although probably not the cause of your feed issues, you may want to check out this link, http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/mags.htm
Just something else to consider when troubleshooting FTF problems. Plus, it's just a really cool site with lots of good R9 info.
Rick
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Thanks for the several comments and suggestions. I knew the new springs were likely not involved in the FTF - that question was really unrelated to the comments on FTF. More an issue of them 'taking a set' after a time if left loaded, making it reasonable to empty and swap out mags. once in a while. I figure can't hurt.
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I have to agree with Tracker. Never have had any problems with the many, many loaded guns I keep around.
However, there is one exception. Those POS factory Glock mag springs. After doing a mag check after laying rest for 1-2 years, 3 different Glocks had brokern mag springs. Boy was I pissed! The springs were in 2 pieces or even 3. I had these guns stationed in the house for personal defense.
They were a Glock 19, 29, and a 20.
And furthermore, the mags were not stressed, i.e., not maxed out. I ran them 2-3 short of full.
When I replaced the springs, you could tell the quality of steel was not "gun steel". They looked like springs from a bed mattress.
What a joke.
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Thanks for the heads-up on the Glock magazine springs; that was a surprise because everything else is so reliable. Did you replace them with Wolffs?
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Bet the Glock would still work flawlessly without the mag springs ;D ;)
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It looks like these +10% mag springs might be a worthwhile investment. I had replaced most of my Glock plastic guide rods with metal ones and the stock recoil springs with chrome-silicon alloy from Bryce of ISMI but I haven't touched base with him in awhile. The piano wire vis-a-vis chrome-silicon is a controversial subject.
http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=1&mID=5#148
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Thanks for the heads-up on the Glock magazine springs; that was a surprise because everything else is so reliable. Did you replace them with Wolffs?
No, at the time, 8 yrs ago? I did not know if Wolfe had them. And time was an issue. I went local.
I no longer keep Glocks for PD. Lost all confidence.
I will replace with the "right" springs. I am in no hurrry now, I am not a "Glock guy". Even though I have 5 or 6, I prefer the XD.
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Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'
American Handgunner, May-June, 2003 John S. Layman
This a great article about springs. fyi :)
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369/
Spring article link
American Handgunner May-June 2003
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Jack,
Good read and that has always been my belief. I fully load all my mags but shoot the ammo in them and replace it with fresh ammo at least twice a year, some more often. :D
Thanks for the informative post.
John
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369/
Spring article link
American Handgunner May-June 2003
Jack. Thanks for the article. I usually leave the mags of my .45 fully loaded. Thanks again.
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I seat a full mag and rack the side leaving the mag one short. Just a habit from the old days.
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There's a few more on the Forum here, that do that also.
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The British SAS were under strict orders to do that on the BHP.
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I do remember reading about the British Special Air Service downloading the Browning High Power to 11+1 for reliability and here's a link:
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=38710
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I did that for a while many years ago but figured that missing round may be important sometime, especially in a 6 or 7 shot auto.
John
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I certainly agree with you, John.
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I did that for a while many years ago but figured that missing round may be important sometime, especially in a 6 or 7 shot auto.
John
I want as many rds, too, as the gun will allow. Don't want to give up a thing.
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I seat a full mag and rack the side leaving the mag one short. Just a habit from the old days.
I'm with Jack. Old habits are hard to break.
(Edit: I do carry a spare mag, though. And at this point I can just hear "P7Enigma" snickering about my speed reloads with "heelers." ) ;D
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Hey ,Icepick,hi,i am the new guy here too..... :o :o :o
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I do remember reading about the British Special Air Service downloading the Browning High Power to 11+1 for reliability and here's a link:
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=38710
KJT, I read your link. I went to an HK class that was taught by a former SAS operator who then worked for HK in Sterling, VA. He was one of the two operators who are shown in the famous picture of the SAS going through the window of the Iranian embassy in London. He never mentioned doing that at all, but then the BHP never came up as we were dealing with HK weapons. However, SAS aside, I have a small collection of 1911A1's from 1943 to 1945. Total of 4 in descent but used condition with 1 that was obviously issued but virtually never fired much based on condition. I know it was issued because I know where it came from. I also have original magazines for those guns based on the markings on same. I've shot a couple of them at the range with those old mags and they worked just fine, with GI hardball of course.
My experience with mags over the years is that the ones which get spring fatigue are the ones that get loaded and shot and reloaded constantly i.e. in competition like NRA 2700 or IPSC where mags take an additonal beating of being dropped all the time as well as loaded and reloaded. Anyone who has shot IPSC knows you need to take lots of mags to a shoot so that you always have enough for one of the ultimately impractical assault courses. While I do rotate and check my carry magazines whenever I shoot one of my working weapons, I don't spend a lot of practice time shooting and reloading those mags. The weapons that I have that have experience spring fatigue the worst are HK and SIG 9mm's and .45's with German made magazines, identifiable by the zigzag back strip where they are put together. For some reason as good as the Germans seem to be in lots of things from cars and guns to Streudel and beer, their ability to make magazine springs is apparently lagging. I am constantly buying Wolff plus strength kits in paks of 3 from Brownell's to replace them. The HK seems the worst but then when the same exact spring is used in all three calibers of USPc maybe that's an indicator of a problems origin. The oldest USPc I own is from 2002. Interestingly, HK 30 rd AR mags don't seem to suffer from that malady. My son prefers them for combat use and took 10 of them with him to Afghanistan and they stayed loaded all the time and were constantly being emptied and reloaded during the time his team was training and operating with local Afghan national police. The one exception to his use of them occurred whenever he was going to be on foot in mountainous terrain. He told me he would then switch to US contract aluminum mags because they were lighter. The HK AR mags are all steel construction, and are a shade longer than their US counterparts but do fit in the Molle pouches that are issued to SF operators. They also fit in nylon Vietnam era pouches but are tight.
Thanks to Jack F for an excellent article link. But regardless of what the article says, we are all a product of our own mythology, experience and training. I'm still going to load my magazines to capacity and I'm still going to rotate them in the gun periodically. I personally also think that having a mag that is loaded all the time is a little different than having one loaded and not in the gun. When a mag is inserted into a pistol while fully loaded the slide of the weapon when closed exerts some down force upon the top round in the magazine. This may be that slight extra force the article mentions that causes the spring to move past it's elastic limit over time. Who knows.
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a few years ago i wanted an answer to the "spring set" question so i spent time on the phone with the owner of Wolff Springs. he stated in no uncertain terms that mags having high quality springs can be left under compression indefinitely without problem. he said what does eventually wear out springs is compressing-and-releasing them many many times.
additionally, i leave my mags FULLY loaded (not just partially) with good reason: for years i followed the concept of storing a mag around 80% full, then one day during training i dropped one of those mags on the ground. the weight of the rounds caused the spring to further compress, which allowed a round inside the mag to rotate, locking up the whole mag, making it impossible to use without emptying/reloading it. i sure didn't want that to happen again in a combat situation so from then on i only carry them fully-loaded & fully-compressed so that very little movement is possible if dropped.
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I would think that Walt Wolff knows what he is talking about.
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I would think that Walt Wolff knows what he is talking about.
I would think so. I have eleven .45 ACP mags fully loaded and everytime I empty several by shooting, they function as they should. The gun bag I carry to the range or the woodpile has ten mag pouches, so they stay full. Works for me.