Author Topic: R9s price increase and grip material change  (Read 10270 times)

Offline Datan

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R9s price increase and grip material change
« on: October 06, 2004, 01:19:05 AM »
Something that folks may find interesting.. spoke to Eric a couple weeks ago when ordering some springs, grip screws and a newer pin, and got some information.. Eric mentioned that they will be raising prices soon - maybe 15% or more.  I guess profit margins aren't that great right now due to cost of materials and that $100 per gun fee they have to pay.  They are also replacing the grip material with something less expensive.. evidently, carbon fiber cost just went up significantly and they are going to use a different material that looks/acts like carbon fiber.  It will be black in color rather than blue as ours currently appear - it will still have the interesting color variation that the carbon fiber grips have... anyway, thought this was interesting and that I'd share.

Personally I think the cost of the gun is reasonable considering the workmanship and materials and would be fine spending more for it.  I want to see this company around for a long time and am encouraged that they are doing what's needed to make a buck.

Offline sharp

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2004, 12:42:55 PM »
When I talked to Eric, he told me the new grip material was going to be a "carbon fiber look" G10 laminate.   I'm glad I got mine with the extremely COOL black/blue carbon fiber grips! ;D

Offline Oscar

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2004, 10:53:07 PM »
Regarding the grip material change:  When will this change go into effect?  I had ordered an R9s last May (still waiting) and am curious as to whether it will arrive with the carbon fiber or the G10 laminate grips.  

Offline DDGator

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2004, 12:33:56 AM »
Oscar -- I don't know when -- depends when they run out of the CF they have I suppose.  If you are curious, you can always call Eric and ask.

The price increase is a "go" and will start on the 15th of this month.  All orders placed before that date are locked in at the old price.  The exact amount of the increase hasn't been officially announced yet.
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Offline TW

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R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2004, 12:36:53 AM »
>>Oscar...

This morning Eric told me they haven't even put together a prototype grip with the new stuff...and they still have quite a few more guns to put together with the old stuff - so assuming you will get your gun in the near future I would guess you will have the original material on your gun.  Perhaps Duane will be able to address your question in more detail...?...TW<<

Offline DDGator

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2004, 12:40:08 AM »
TW is right -- they didn't even have a prototype G10 grip to show me yet.  Its still a little bit down the road I think.
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Offline Fud

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2004, 03:24:19 AM »
Quote
... Personally I think the cost of the gun is reasonable considering the workmanship and materials and would be fine spending more for it.  I want to see this company around for a long time and am encouraged that they are doing what's needed to make a buck ...
I obviously don't know anything about the financials of the company or how much it is costing them to make a gun or what their profit margin is but I do know a bit about economics (I've got a Masters in the field of business administation) and here are a few observations along with some conclusions based on those observations ...
  • The more you make of something (in this case, the R9 & R9S) , the cheaper each individual piece will cost to make which is why many places offer volume discounts if you buy a lot of something.

    A simple example will help to illustrate what I mean. If Rohrbaugh decided to make only one gun, that gun would cost a fortunate because all of the cost of designing, buying specialized machines for making the various parts, etc.; would go into the cost of that one gun.

    If they made two guns instead of one, all of that cost would be spread across two guns and each gun would cost half as much.

    If they made four guns, the cost would be spread across four guns and the price would be reduced in half again.

    The bottomline is that the more guns you selll, the more you can spread your costs across all of those guns and the cost per gun should go down until you reach break-even point. For Rohrbaugh, that break-even point seemed to be around $900 ... give or take.

  • At around $900 per gun, they have either already sold enough guns to cover their initial investment or they haven't.


In either event, raising price at this time might not be such a good idea. There is something called a supply & demand curve ...


... If the price, as indicated by the light blue line is too high, nobody will buy the product as shown in the above red zone. As the price slides down that blue line, an interest for the product begins to happen as indicated by the light green line.

As the price continues to drop, the demand for the product begins to rise. And that only makes sense -- the cheaper you offer something, the more it will be desired by people until you get to the point where you are almost giving it away and everybody wants one.

Notice that as your blue price line drops, your green demand line increases.

Ideally, you want to be selling something at the point where the two lines cross because that will MAXIMIZE the profit on the product. If you try selling at a higher price, you hurt your sales and thereby reduce income. If you sell it for less, then you've reduced your profit margin when you didn't have to do that.

  • As I said in the beginning, I don't know the financial details but most people that I have been in contact with believe that the R9 & R9S are too pricey. This would mean that the present day price MIGHT be a little bit to the left of where the two lines intersect indicating that it's a bit too high.


By raising the price further, it could potentially reduce the amount of guns sold. What they should be doing instead is decreasing the price which will then have the effect of increasing demand and they can make up what they are losing on the extra volume.

Again, this is all just my opinion. [/list]   Having said all of that, I think that I am going to contact Eric before 15th and order a second one before the price increase  ;D

Offline FJC

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2004, 08:36:09 AM »
Your points about price/demand are all quite valid - however, you have to keep in mind that in order to take advantage of economies of scale, they have to be able to MEET the demand that the lower prices would generate.

Seeing as how they are a very small, hands-on shop, they are barely keeping up with demand at this point (waiting list of 5 months now, I believe).  They could expand, add workers, and increase production, but from what I've read they want to keep the operation very close-knit to keep quality as high as possible.  I believe at some point they will inevitably have to do this, as Eric and the others can only go at such a breakneck pace for so long, and so far demand doesn't seem to be tapering off.  Perhaps they'd welcome lowered demand and are targeting a "sweet spot" where they can make a decent profit on a lowered production count.

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Offline TW

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R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2004, 10:12:01 AM »
About business in general I agree with Fudster, however I think there are certain products, like the R9, which become a specialized market unto themselves.  

I likewise produce a product in one of my business's which has appeal to a specialized market and has allowed me to be at the top of my industry for over 30 years.  This despite the fact my competitors use websites and expensive advertising, and my business is essentially word of mouth.  Part of my success is the personialized after sales support I offer, and part is a unique product which I continue to pioneer.  My hope is the R9, and any offshoots, will end up the same way...meaning there will be more than enough folks like some of us who will shell out a tiddy sum of money for a special gun/servive/experience that we might not normally spend on a gun.  BTW, I likewise purchased my second gun before the increase, but would not hesitate to pay the extra had that been the case...TW<<

Offline DDGator

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2004, 10:25:42 AM »
I talked with Eric about this a bit, and a lot about their business philosophy in general.

I am speculating here, but I can't see any way they have even made a dent in their initial investment.  They have shipped a few hundred guns.  They have a factory full of computerized, high tech machines and a bunch of people working who arent exactly getting rich.  Not to mention years of R&D...

The fact is that they are not contemplating a price increase based on economic theory or maximizing their profit.  They are forced to increase the price to keep their revenue the same.  The previous pricing had not adequately addressed the 10% federal excise tax they pay on each gun.  Also, material costs have continued to go up.  

Believe me when I tell you that much thought and hand-wringing has gone into this price increase -- it is a necessity and not just a whim.

I can't stress enough that this is a semi-custom gun made in large part by hand.  Its a specialty product.  The orginal thought was that this gun would retail for well over $2,000.

More and more, I think those who criticize the gun's price don't understand what it is.  
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Offline R9SCarry

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2004, 01:15:30 PM »
Duane has said much what I had in mind.

I have speculated (as an engineer) on the various aspects of this gun's development and have little trouble imaging the huge . no - HUGE - investment in time, equipment and overall R&D.

I had one project way back which was in effect a six month program ... starting with prototyping and progressive development - thru to an early workable production design, at which point my job was about done.  I worked on an hourly costing system for my time and was satisfactorily reimbursed for the most part.  However .. me being me - there were also countless hours in fact where time was ''absorbed'' by me ... ''thinking time'' .... computer time ..... things which thru my involvment and dedication were not charged out (silly me probably!).

Bottom line? ...... the total costs to my client were still immense ... not because I made a killing . no . it was the cumulative effect of the whole process ....... others besides me also being in the scheme.  The client - the manufacturer of course eventually .... had big overheads with tooling and machinery capital costs, and many other often hidden costs.

My point - in a long winded way - is that the required investment in total, even here over a mere six months can and usually does become immense.  In the Rohrbaugh case .... this is over several years ...... with no significant income for ages - just cost and more cost.

This will take a long time to recoup and while I doubt they are ''money grubbing'' in the least - will have had to give serious attention to their cash flow projections, just in order to be able to stay afloat and so maintain now the output of product., without compromizing quality.

Any price increase is always potentially bad news for the consumer but I think the R9 has a strong enough niche market to carry this thru now it is well under way.  If I had not now (just this week) got my #2 ... I would still have paid the extra needed.

That $100 Dollar tax cost they have to pay -  sux!!
Chris - R9S
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Offline Incursion

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2004, 11:46:12 AM »
A clarification on the economics lesson: as the price drops or rises, the quantity demanded changes, not the total demand curve.  This is a distinction that most people don't account for.  Things like buyer interest and consumer tastes shift the entire demand curve.  Things like technological advances and resources shift the entire supply curve.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2004, 06:45:31 PM by Incursion »

Offline RJ HEDLEY

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2004, 09:21:57 AM »
"That $100 Dollar tax cost they have to pay" - R9SCarry

---------------------

What is this tax about, that is a very high percentage !!
RJ=


 
 

Offline DDGator

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2004, 11:52:09 AM »
They have to pay a 10% Federal excise tax...  

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Offline TCat

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Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2004, 01:17:34 PM »
Quote
...but I do know a bit about economics (I've got a Masters in the field of business administation) and here are a few observations along with some conclusions based on those observations ...
Given that they're shipping orders from like May right now, I don't think your analysis takes into account the true supply-v-demand curve.  Demand is outstripping supply.  For quick delivery, you pay a premium to a middle man.

It's much better economically for the company to raise prices to the point where supply and demand are about even, given that they cannot simply increase supply.  That way the premium goes to them rather than the middle-man.

One thing I wonder is whether they might be rushing it too much as is.  Incursion's posts (http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1091549418;start=75#75) on his 3% failure rate thus far may reflect a need for them to slow down, rather than speed up, production.  (Or it may reflect all sorts of other things, but this is the type of out-of-box-experience that costs companies a lot in both support costs and repuation.)  I don't see a downside for Rohrbaugh in raising prices right now.