The Rohrbaugh Forum

Miscellaneous => Other Guns => Topic started by: wilco on May 20, 2004, 05:53:33 PM

Title: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: wilco on May 20, 2004, 05:53:33 PM
and it aint a match pistol,and it aint something with which to teach a novice, and it aint exactly a  hunting pc. So it's a bit of a stretch to imply that no other guns exist, (or that none merit consideration or discussion).
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: DDGator on May 20, 2004, 06:21:38 PM
Just meant to be a bit of levity since this is a Rohrbaugh forum.  There are lots of places to discuss other guns, although its welcome here too...

Certainly the R-9 is not a solution to every problem.  In fact, its probably only a solution to one problem -- how to pack a service round into the smallest concealed gun possible.

I have lots of other guns for lots of other reasons.  
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: wilco on May 20, 2004, 06:45:02 PM
well, once a pc is small enough, and lw enough for a front pants pocket, making it smaller or lighter just hurts the user's ability to hit swiftly and repeatedly.  I think that Kahr stole Mr Rorbaugh's thunder, with their $600, 15 oz, 6" PM9 9mm.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: DDGator on May 20, 2004, 06:58:35 PM
Maybe to some degree they did, but the R-9 is smaller in all dimensions (with all metal construction -- no plastic -- and no stamped, cast or MIM parts) and feels smaller yet.  I had a PM9 and found it on the large side for pocket carry.  The R-9 carries much easier to me.  

As for how it shoots, I can't yet say, but I look forward to finding out.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: TexasBeard on May 22, 2004, 04:00:55 AM
I had a Kahr P40; shot the best of any semi-auto I've ever had.  Pointed like a GOOD DA revolver, light enough, slim enough to conceal, plenty of punch.  Thought I'd hit on the perfect carry gun.  

BUT... Kahr has a fatal design flaw with the polymer frame mag catch; it has a *tiny* piece of steel embedded in the plastic mag catch that has a propensity of departing from the mag catch.  Thereby rendering the gun into a single shot, at best...   I traded it for a stainless K40 (too heavy) and traded that for a Glock27 (too bulky).   Now  back to a S&W 340SC most of the time, or a Keltec .380 ALL of the time (my NAA G32 has become my new pocket snake medicine on the farm replacing a .22mag mini-revolver).

I'm impressed by the side-by-side comparison with a KelTec .380.

BUT, for $900+/-, I'd expect a slide release and a side mount mag catch.  Kinda surprised they went the butt-mount mag catch.   If it had the butt-mount mag catch, I'd be raiding the cookie jar.   Fer now I'll stick with what I've got.

TexasBeard
(still lookin' for the "perfect" carry gun)
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: flyandscuba on May 22, 2004, 12:57:11 PM
I think they left the slide release and  side mag catch off for good reason -- to make it as thin as possible.

Also, for it's intended use -- close in self defense, you will not be reloading.  If you need to do a mag change  in a confrontation of 7 feet or less, chances are you're history anyway! ;D

Seriously, the heel mounted magazine release actually gives you the highest level of security of not having your magazine depart from the gun during a stressful situation.  It is foreign to most US shooters, but with practice -- fast reloads are possible.

My HK P7 has the European heel mag release.  You learn to bring the fresh mag up and purge the spent mag with the same hand while holding the charged magazine.

Again, I feel fast reload of the R-9 was not within the intended design criteria.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: DDGator on May 22, 2004, 02:01:58 PM
I agree with both of you to some extent.  I would prefer a traditional "American" style mag release, but I am not stressing over it.

My understanding is the heel-type catch was chosen for maximum secuirty for pocket carry -- no inadvertant releases.  That was deemed more important than quick mag changes in this gun.  It was a design choice, not a compromise.
Title: httRe: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: DDGator on May 22, 2004, 11:29:41 PM
Here is a pic of the heel release:

(http://img73.photobucket.com/albums/v223/DDGator/a05_magrel.gif)
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: R9SCarry on May 23, 2004, 02:06:26 PM
I'm with fly here ..... much as I'd like side mag release and slidelock etc .... in all realism .. no way could this be done here and still retain the slim profile.  Heel mag release doesn't bother me much ... a quick reload just requires that the mag needs pressed rearward to push catch out the way, that's all.

So much of gun design is compromize - and here the end result is I think exactly what ''Les Rorhbaughs'' had in mind at the outset.  Simple to me is often a way to go ... and about the only thing that needs a bit of a ''knack'' is holding slide open without a lock.  Otherwise, I reckon the D/A only approach has nailed the best mechanism.  I feel totally happy with my 1 + 6 ... and the trigger surprises everyone to whom I have shown the gun .. smooth as smooth.

As far as cost goes .. well, this pup has taken an all but incalculable amount of R&D .. at who knows what cost.  This has to be recouped and I'd wager that even after two years of expanding sales .. break-even will maybe still not be reached.  It HAS to be expensive.  Look at the tolerancing too - and materials choice .. as has been said .. no yucky MIM parts here. :)

Anyone'd think I was a fan of the R9 .... they'd be right! ;D
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: GeorgeH on May 24, 2004, 12:45:07 AM
I love Kahr's but they are not a pocket pistol. The Rohrbaugh is.

This is a last ditch, close range, firearm that was designed to be as simple, small, and as light as possible.

The Rohrbaugh not intended to compete with the Kahr PM 9. It is not a compact service pistol. It is a personal defense/BUG. No more or no less.

This gun competes with the Seecamp 380, the NAA Guardian series, and to a lesser extent the Kel Tec's.

I own 3 Seecamps, a 25 and 2 32's. I also own a Kel Tec 380, and a pair of NAA Guardians--both the 32 and 380.

My primary carry weapon is a Glock 36.

What will be in my pocket will be the Rohrbaugh and the NAA Guardians.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: wilco on May 24, 2004, 01:51:32 AM
don't know where you live,but in the real world, tens of thousands of people pocket carry .38 snubs every day, and many x as many do so occasionally. The Kahr PM 9 is  a lot slimmer,  .3" shorter, and 3 ozs lighter than a steel, j frame .38 snub which has been a favorite pocket pc of many,for 40 years or so now.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: TexasBeard on May 24, 2004, 07:16:54 AM
I have to recommend that NO ONE consider a Kahr polymer frame pistol.   The dirty little secret is they have several severe design flaws, all arising from their choice of polymer (TOO 'soft').

The magazine catch relies on a *tiny* piece of steel molded into it to hold the magazine in place.  

The polymer is too 'soft' (pliable) to retain that too-small steel insert.

WHEN the steel insert 'departs', the magazine catch will no longer hold the magazine in place.

Contrast that to a Glock, that uses a much 'harder' (more rigid polymer),  and their magazine catch does NOT rely on a too-small steel insert, but on a wider bearing surface of the harder polymer-polymer contact with the frame.

I had a Kahr that was the best shooting little pistol I've ever had... But there was no way to know WHEN that magazine catch was going to fail AGAIN, rendering the pistol a single-shot (at best).

Thanks,
TexasBeard
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: GeorgeH on May 24, 2004, 08:11:34 AM
Hi Wilco:

Until I bought my Glock 36, my primary carry firearm was a S&W J frame.

My definition of a pocket gun is any firearm that I can conceal in the rear pocket of a pair of jeans.

When I go somewhere where prudence suggests that I be armed, I will usually carry my primary firearm on my belt with a NAA 380 Guardian in my rear pocket and either a Seecamp or NAA 32 Guardian in my front pocket.

The Rohrbaugh will most likely replace one of my pocket guns most of the time.

 

Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: wilco on May 25, 2004, 10:27:30 AM
Wont the STEEL mag catch of the regular Kahr's work in the PM models.If they dont, it's wonderful opportunity for someone to get RICH by contracting with an investment casting outfit, to make such a mag catch.

I moved the mag catch on my "chopped" Star BM (the Nova version, by smith Tim La France) to the butt, so that I could create a "sinus" at the bottom rear of the trigger guard, and thus, get all my fingers on the front strap of the gun.  A PPK type finger extention on the bottom front of the mag aids in this regard.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: wilco on May 25, 2004, 10:30:48 AM
The confrontation might be as far away as  7m, but a man can charge 7 yds, from a standing start, in 2 seconds, and under lethal stress, 2 seconds is a VERY fast reload, even if you have the spare mag in hand when the  timing starts. So a reload, except from behind cover, is not likely to help you.  With the heel clip type of mag catch, you can still manage such a reload in 3-4 seconds, twice as fast as one can realistically expect to speedload a revolver.  Furthermore, you can keep one roundchambered while you do it, with which to shoot anybody who tries to charge your position.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: GeorgeH on May 26, 2004, 12:34:06 AM
Hi Wilco:

I have 3 Seecamps, and long ago became use to that style of mag release.

Pocket guns have a very important and limited function. I don't expect to reload my pocket guns, whether they be the Seecamp, NAA Guardian, Kel Tec, or Rohrbough.

I do expect to reload my Glock 36 or Glock 19.

A gun is a tool.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: wilco on May 26, 2004, 07:17:44 PM
better rethink THAT, bud. In nearly 40 years of study, I've never heard of a case where a civilian had to HIT more than 2 attackers, and only very, very rarely does a cop or soldier have to.  If you need 15 rds to hit 2 men, you need to work on your shooting, not on your mag changes.

20 ft is a long, LONG shot in combat with a pistol 30 ft is about extreme long range. About half if the time you will fire at arm's length, and 90% of the time, you will fire at  10 ft or less (or go to prison or be sued out of every dime you ever make). The reason for this truth is that most attacks are NOT made with a gun, and it's hard to establish why you HAD to shoot a non-gun guy beyond 10 ft. Over half of the gun attacks occur at 10 ft and less, according to the FBI'S UCR. According to the DOJ'S annual Crime survey,  70% of all attacks are not made with a gun. So there you are, 85+% of all attacks mean firing at  10 ft or less. 15 rds is a LOT of missing at such ranges. With decent loads, and decent shooting, 3-4 hits per man should be plenty(or you are going to be very lucky to survive it. ) Getting off  15 CONTROLED shots takes 4 seconds, even if you don't have to add the draw-time.  That's a long, long time to be exposed to enemy fire. If you have cover, you probably dont have to (and shouldn't) fire at all, but only "peek", and move as need be to maintain cover.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: wilco on May 26, 2004, 07:27:14 PM
it takes only 2 seconds to charge 20 ft, from a standing start. So what makes you think that you are going to have the TIME needed to fire 15 rds, much less reload and miss some more
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: musician on May 27, 2004, 09:23:28 AM
To even have to draw your gun means you have found yourself in a place and a situation in which you should not be.  If you always practice visual vigilence--no matter where you are--you should always be able to discern and then avoid possible trouble.  Examples abound: cross the street to avoid gatherings of youths instead of trying to walk through them.  Stay out of "road houses" unless you are looking for a fight  (I know what I'm talking about: as a musician I've played my share of them).  And so on.  And at night carry a weapon light like a Surefire with a 120 lumen output, and don't be bashful about illuminating dark places before you have to walk into them.  Set you cellphone to speed-dial 9-1-1.  Unless you are a soldier, avoidance is always better than confrontation.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: wilco on May 27, 2004, 10:18:33 AM
yep, altho I've "buffaloed" more than my share of punks in my day, it is not the wisest thing to attempt. If you ccw, you really should also be wearing concealed body armor.  No realistic reason to not do so, other than laziness and kidding yourself.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: flyandscuba on May 27, 2004, 11:43:54 AM
I've heard the civilian purchase of body armour is now restricted....anything to that?  I know places like Gall's used to sell it openly, but now lists it as LEO only...
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: wilco on May 27, 2004, 12:08:40 PM
Last I looked, there were still ads for its sale in G and A mag, and the Shotgun News, and on the Net. Can always see some for sale at gun sales.
Title: Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
Post by: DDGator on May 31, 2004, 02:32:18 PM
I think this thread, too, has survived its useful life.

**Locked**