The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => Other Guns => Topic started by: Emjimb on September 21, 2005, 07:18:31 PM
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Ok -now that my r9 is snug in my pocket -I am in the market for a 45 -do not really like the 1911 "cock and lock" -have considered the following -Maybe someone can reply -and thanks for a great forum .
HK sub compact
Sig p245
Para /either cco or carry 12 -like more shots
Ruger New ? P345
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Emjimb,
Recently, I've read some unfavorable comments about the Para.
My favorite would be a Sig, but I need a short trigger because of small hands. One thing about a Sig, it should always work.
Teddy Jacobson, the well known pistolsmith from Texas prefers, in a small size, either the Glock 36, or the sub compact HK.
I had the G36. You hear people griping about it only holding six rounds.
Again, my favorite would be the Sig, or would consider the HK if it felt OK in the hand.
Bill
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Emjimb:
While I have always carried a 1911 "cocked and locked," the following is a link to a thread in which an alternative was discussed:
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=Other;action=display;num=1124060382
I'm still considering it.
As for my 1911, it started its life as a "plain-Jane," stainless-steel Colt Government Model 1991A1. It has now been customized by Clark Custom Guns, and I am more than satisfied with the result.
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I was always reluctant to carry my Government model 'cocked and locked'.
Since we keep our finger off the trigger, it doesn't seem so dangerous anymore.
Still, I would be one of those chickens who carried empty for one month, just to make sure all was well. ;)
Bill
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Bill, I see what you are talking about. Its considered bad form if when you sit down there is a loud bang!!!
I've carried cocked and locked for years, its a comfort to know that everything is ready when you are.
Tom
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Tom, I carried the last two years with the chamber empty.
Now the R9 is 6+1.
It would be strange, otherwise. There is no sense doing it, if you are not ready. I just make sure it is always in the holster, and avoid any temptation to play with it. It is strictly hands off when it is loaded.
Hope you don't get too much rain in the Dallas area.
We would like some here, because the Great Lakes are at low levels.
Bill
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My 45 carry experiences went from a Kimber CDP that I carried cocked and locked. I phased this one out for a glock 36. I thought that the narrow, lighter carry gun was the way to go. Problem was that I just could not shoot the Glock 36 very well. It shot low. I changed out the rear sights in hope that would help. It did not. The narrow profile of the 36 also made for uncomfortable practice sessions with that gun. I really gave it a long try but just could not shoot it well. It was traded for a Sig 239 in 40 S&w. The Kimber sat in the safe for a long while and that wound up going for the cash to buy my R9. I decided that I was probably not going to carry cocked and locked anymore. It believe my problem with shooting the Glock was limited to the model 36. I now have a model 23 that I shoot very well and is very comfortable to carry and shoot.
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LCP,
I got too concerned about the light, short pull Glock trigger, and had a New York trigger installed. The comfort level went way up.
I have a Sig P239 in 9mm. It is one terrific gun. Mine is hard chrome plated and the grips are premium selected Goncalo Alves.
It's one heck of a gun.
Bill
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I have an older ParaOrd P12-45 and really like it. It gave me some problems early on but once I gave it a fluff'n'buff it's been 100% since. I also like Para's new DA trigger - it's very, very smooth. As for C&L, I wouldn't let it be a limiting factor. It is actually quite safe and, with training, will become second nature to you. With the thumb safety, grip safety, a good holster, and proper training, a 1911 is as safe as it gets.
The concern over 1911's is largely due to the cocked hammer 'looking' intimidating - the new safety by Cylinder & Slide is, IMHO, just window dressing - it does nothing to alter or enhance safety other than making it look less intimidating to the sheeple. The other concern, long since addressed - is a C&L discharging when dropped. Any gun can still theoretically have that happen but it's no longer as much of a concern due to modern safeties.
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Bill
I really like my 239. I used it to shoot a close range gunfighting class earlier this year. I have never had a single problem with this gun. My only complaint in its use it due to my being left handed. The decock lever is not conveinent for a southpaw. I have been recently thinking of sending it back to Sig to have them convert it to DAO. They do this for $120. including parts. I have not done it yet because I have been carrying the Glock 23. Although since getting the R9 I have gotten spoiled with its ease of carry compared to either the Glock or Sig.
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I really like mine.
Sometimes it catches on the holster, but otherwise it is as smooth as silk.
It's my favorite pistol, great to take apart, but the R9S is the one for easiest carry.
Bill
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LCP, thats what is nice about the 1911 type gun, lefties can shoot it too with a ambi safety.
Tom
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Although I carry a railed 1911 on duty, my sig has the "short" trigger (option or user installed) ... that might be a consideration (for Michigunner). Just another $.02 from an over -the -hiller.
mefly2
8)
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mefly2,
My Sig has a short trigger, too. It's just right.
I traded triggers with a guy over the internet, but asked a gunsmith to do the required work.
Bill
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In a pistol the .45acp is my favorite caliber.
Tom
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I had sort of planned to get the new Kahr .45 auto, but the R9S is more than enough for me to handle.
If we end up with a Rohrbaugh .45, it will take a real man to shoot it.
They will have to award certificates!
Bill
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I love my .40 Sig P239. DA-SA trigger action on this gun is second only to the R9S DAO in my humble opinion.
A lot of people don't like the DA-SA (or Traditional DA) trigger feel. I am not one of them. Here's how I look at it:
At least on my P239, I rack the slide, decock, and holster the gun. If I need it immediately, I can draw & fire - and I won't notice the extra effort required to trigger-cock the action for that first round. If I have the time and want a more precise trigger release (like for a long distance shot), I just ease the hammer back to full cock position. Then I have the single action static release so many 1911 shooters love.
My observations may be slightly colored by the fact I cut my teeth on a S&W 686 revolver. To this day I shoot a revolver better in DA mode than I do SA. (I didn't say I'm very good, just better in DA than SA! :-[)
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Steve - I find the DA/SA suits me well too - with the 226 ST I carry as primary. True enough - if time permits, cock hammer but I find when shooting IDPA and so drawing from the leather, I hardly notice the DA pull. My old P97 Ruger however has two very extreme trigger positions.
I shall soon have a SIG 220 I aquired and it'll be nice to have that as an optional platform for .45acp but probably I'll stay with my 15+1 of the 226.
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Well said, Steve.
I especially like being able to cock the hammer.
The slide is smooth as can be. It is very easy to operate. Maybe it comes from the Militec-1 and hair dryer treatment it received when new.
It's a mighty fine gun.
Still, it wont go in your pocket like an R9S, which is an all-around humdinger.
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Michigunner,
I have also been thinking about getting a Kahr .45. I have two Kahr PM9s, a MK40, and a Kahr P40. Over all I really like the Kahr pistols.
The .45s I have are: a pre 1980 Colt Combat Commander .45, a Taurus PT145 Pro, and a Kimber Ultra Carry .45. The Kimber is really very nice but too big the carry concealed all the time. I don't shoot the 1911 type .45s much anymore because I am mostly practicing with DAO pistols like the Rohrbaugh R-9, Kahrs, Kel Tecs and Glocks. That way if I have to use a pistol while under stress I woun't have to think about operating a safety. I've shot the Glock .45s. The G21, G30 and the G36. I didn't care for the Glock 36. It doesn't feel right to me. I'm used to the wider Glocks. Also the Glock 36 pinches my little finger between the grip and magazine extension. I shoot the Glock 21 pretty well, but it is a little too large for my small hands. Sort of like Goldie Locks said, the Glock 30 was just right. If I get a Kahr .45 I'll let you know how it shoots.
Ed
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I really don't think a Rohrbaugh .45 or .40S&W would be practical. The larger rounds would need a larger, heavier pistol. That would defeat the purpose of the Rohrbaugh. As Karl Rohrbaugh has said. The R-9 is like a modern (simiauto) derringer. Small light and very concealable. But I could be wrong. The Rohrbaugh brothers may work their magic and develop the smallest simiauto .45 ACP pistol in the world. If anyone can I'm sure they can.
Ed
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Ed,
It may be about time for the Kahr 45 to be featured in the big gun magazines.
Roy Huntington, the editor of American Handgunner, told me they had one for evaluation. That was around the time it was announced. It will be fun to read the article. I'm really looking forward to it, although the R9S is my main choice as long as it never fails me.
I don't know Roy well, but he was very gracious to respond directly to me with an email, after I complained about Clint Smith using coarse language when he starting an article calling some of the readers "t_rd suckers".
It just annoyed the heck out of me that refined people would have to read that. I'm not refined, but other gun people are.
Roy wanted everybody to lighten up, and he stood by the writer. I may not renew my subscription because of it. Certainly, if anything remotely close to that happens again, I'll cancel both Guns and American Handgunner.
Sorry about the language discussion. I figure if Duane wont let us use it, why should it be in our gun magazines.
Heaven forbid, but if our beloved R9S does not fly out of the recent clouds of suspicion, I'll probably go to the 45 Auto using IWB. I've never completely recovered from trading my Milt Sparks VM-2 in black horsehide along with the G36.
Bill
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The .45ACP is my favorite handgun caliber, both for defense and practice.
While I don't much buy into the "9mm vs. .45" debates, every little bit of increased bullet size and weight helps, assuming first that you hit accurately and that you hit something that counts!
I've carried my 1911s "cocked and locked" for 20 years.
If you have a thoroughly-reliable example which has been gone over by a trained, practical, experienced 'smith, there's no overall-better choice in a .45ACP sidearm, IMNSHO.
OTOH, there are alternatives which I do carry (Glock 36, Glock 30) and have carried in the past (Sig Sauer P220, HK USP .45 Compact) and they are certainly viable, for folks who feel insecure about Condition One carry with the 1911, though of course none offers the stellar trigger pull of a "tuned" 1911. (I mean a light, clean, crisp break, not any sort of unsafe trigger pull.)
For those folks who feel they can get along with the DA/SA type of semiautos, I'd suggest unprepared-but-time-dependent drills, wherein your first shot MUST be accurate, must occur within a given short time frame not of your own choice, AND subsequent shots must be made accurately on a target that's now moving.
This will unmask just how awful the DA first shot and the subsequent DA-SA transition is on most such guns.
If this seems artificial, consider that it's what happens in a real life defensive situation; you must make an accurate on-demand shot, and may need to follow up with more such on a target which may well now have moved off the original line of fire.
This sort of emphasis, and qualification thereat, is taught by many modern trainers, eg. John Farnam.
Personally, I've never seen a single person who brought a DA/SA auto to one of his classes successfully qualify, which bespeaks the difficulty of using that style of gun. JMNSHO.
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Sawbones, well said! Its the 1911 .45acp for me also.
Tom
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Thanks, Tom.
I hope I don't offend anyone, and there are certainly lots of folks who are simply required by fiat and regulation to carry a certain DA/SA auto, many LEOs, for instance.
I know many people like 'em, and I certainly have no gripe with the manufacturing quality of some of the makers of these guns, like Sig and HK.
OTOH, I believe we should stack the deck in our own favor any way we can. For me, this includes carrying and shooting only guns with an "always the same for every shot" trigger pull, and the lighter and crisper the trigger pull, the better.
I divested myself of all DA/SA guns accordingly awhile ago.
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SAWBONES:
With all due respect to the extraordinary Rohrbaugh 9mm design (which has truly raised the bar for so-called "pocket pistols"), if I can take only one pistol with me to Armageddon it will be a Browning 1911 .45 ACP.
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SAWBONES,
I agree with you on the DA/SA issue. I've fired many handguns in my life. The DA/SA trigger pull may be OK for some, but I don't care for it. I do very well with the 1911 type .45s. But since firing the DA only pistols, like Glock, Kahr, KelTecs and of course the Rohrbaugh, I try to stick with this type of tigger pull for consistency of muscle memory. By the way the Rohrbaugh R-9 has one of the best DA trigger pulls I've ever used.
Ed