The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: DDGator on August 15, 2004, 01:51:24 PM
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My previous carry was usually a Kel-Tec P-3AT about all the time and a S&W 342 (Airlite j-frame .38 special) as my "big gun" when possible.
Now with the R-9, I am not sure where the J-frame fits in my carry rotation.
Let me preface this by saying that I love revolvers. I shoot a S&W 625 in IPSC and prefer wheelguns for a lot of tasks. And yet, the R-9 is smaller in every dimension and packs more firepower (6+1 of 9mm v. 5 .38 special). The R-9 has similar sights and a better trigger pull. Reloading speed is comparable on both, but the edge clearly goes to the R-9.
The only things in favor of the snub are a few ounces (not many) and PERHAPS a reliability factor. I am not one to say that wheelguns are 100%. Especially with these light guns, bullet pull can be a factor. I have had revolvers stop on me. Mechanically, however, they should be somewhat superior.
Here is a comparision picture of the two (gently) on top of each other. I tried to line up the trigger guards so you could see how the other dimensions compare.
Anyone else struggling with this comparision?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/DDGator/Rohrbaugh/DSC_0412.jpg)
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And a side-by-side comparision:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/DDGator/Rohrbaugh/DSC_0410.jpg)
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I too am a revolver man, I shoot a 625 in competion as well, collect Smith and Wessons and Freedom Arms, for years my carry piece has been a smith 042 (uncatologued) which as a collector I probably should have stashed but didn't.
I agree with your estimation on weight and portability, however as for the reliability, I have had no where near the reliability that some of the members here have had with their r9s, not that its a bad gun but a revolver it is not.
Now before I get a bunch of requests to elaborate on the failures of the r9s, I am still testing my current piece and feel I owe it to Eric and Karl to review the results before posting them on the web, but i'm not about to retire my J frame.
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No comparision for me, The R9S is hands down the best all around pocket carry piece I have had in 15yrs of pocketcarry of probally 30+ different piece's.
Over the years after tring the latest wonder pocket guns I alway's went back to an airweight J and a seecamp 32.
I thought I finally found the holly grail of pocketpiece's when I got my long awaited seecamp 380, of which I will never sell and is a dynamite pocket piece in its own right, but when I got the R9S its just....well perfect!
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Duane and Ben - I too am very much in the revo camp .... also finding my 625 and moonclips a superb combination. When it comes to carry I also favor my SP-101 as fave even if way heavier and a bit longer than, say, the 342 category. I also as some will have seen .. am a revo ''hand cannon'' freak!
I'll join Pocketman tho in saying that (whilst I have not had anything like his number of pocket pieces) - the R9 has a special place. Unique in fact.
Just for extra comparison - here is my R9s over the SP-101 .. apples and oranges somewhat and not overlaid like Duane's pic. The triggers are notionally in line and so the difference is way obvious.
The SP of course is for me never pocket - always OWB 3.30 belt slide. It is first choice these days, and a Comp 1 speedloader is usually in some pocket somewhere.
However, the pup resides so well in the pocket that it is becoming ever more the BUG, plus - of late whilst in skimpy clothing, even my sole and thus primary carry. I feel still very confident even with just that on board.
(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/shoot4/r9-vs-sp-s.jpg)
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Revolvers take neglect better than semiautos, but semiautos take abuse better than revolvers.
Because the revolver is human-powered, it is generally less likely to fail due to less than adequate cleaning or pocket debris. However, the many small parts that make it work are subject to wear and breakage.
Semiautos depend on a balance of slide weight, recoil spring strength, magazine spring strength, and cartridge energy to function. Add some crud-induced friction, and you have problems. However, the parts taking the abuse are bigger and less delicate.
For the past several years, I have put an average of about 7,000 rounds per year downrange through various guns. The vast majority of that total is through semiautos, but my revolvers go back to the factory for service more often.
Based on the above, the J-frame could be superior for:
1) Coat pocket carry without a holster. With a shrouded hammer, you could even fire through a coat pocket without risk of jamming the gun or catching coat fabric between the hammer and rest of the gun.
2) Ankle carry (where it will be exposed to all kinds of dirt and water.
3) At least for now, you can get a Crimson Trace Lasergrip for the S&W but not the Rohrbaugh, although I am not really a big fan of lasers (what if you and your companion have identical dots?).
Other than that, the R-9 is the closest thing I have seen yet to making the .38 snub obsolete.
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Bill - you make some very valid points. However, and I forgot to mention in last post - one major thing for me with revo's and pockets .. is not so much weight as width. An inevitable aspect of having a cylinder .. being the gun's widest area. Certainly when it comes to width profile, the R9 is just amazing.
[size=13] (what if you and your companion have identical dots?)[/size]
Haha! Hmmmm .... I guess in the most remote of cases this could apply ...... but even so I love my CT grips and I think if they were ''in use'' even with those of another ...... the natural feedback from one's own gun movement would probably suffice to register one dot as ''your own''!! Hard to tell tho without testing it out. :P
With auto's I think my major concern is more with feed reliablity than actual gun function mechanics per se. This is why of course we all (should) have established before use for carry, that ammunition Brand X is right for the gun. With revo, generally this is so much less of an issue.
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Similar situation for me - when I'm not carrying a full-sized pistol, I'm either carrying my P-3AT or my S&W 340PD. I think once my R9s arrives and I've certified it for carry, it may be my only pocket carry pistol.
I do like the 340pd for winter-coat-pocket-carry, but that's a pretty specialty-niche.
I seriously may end up selling both the P-3AT and 340PD in the near future...
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It also makes me wonder -- what is the next step up in armament that is justified by the increased size and weight?
A Kahr is out -- not sufficiently more firepower. A Glock 26 or Kel-Tec P-11 is not a lot more firepower although slightly more shootable (maybe?). I am now thinking that my "big gun" has to be a Glock 19 or similar to give me significantly more power than the R-9.
Good problem to have!
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That thought occurred to me, too. I often carry a SIG P239, which is 8+1 rounds of 9mm.
I can easily see carrying it to feel like a chore compared to the R9s, for only 2 more rounds of 9mm!
Now, the P226 with 16 rounds and a much bigger sight radius...or the Colt Commander .45 with 9 rounds...
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Hi Duane,
The new Para-Ordnance Warthog looks like a good alternative for a heavier gun. I have a Para-Ordnance P-10 Limited and a C.6.45 LDA Para-Carry. I had originally thought about using one of them for my primary but I have gotten really partial to my Kahr P40 Covert and will probably stick with it for a primary gun. It is accurate, light, the Corbon .40 cal. 135 gr. JHPs average 1289 fps out of it, I shoot it very well, and I have some excellant leather for it.
Frank
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This topic has been re-created (with a different slant) in the "Revolvers" forum on The High Road:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97202
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I think a picture from the top comparing the thickness of a revolver and a R9S (hint, hint :)) might indicate why the R9S resides in my pocket.
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I know that one person's experience is merely anecdotal and of little value, but since some people on the High Road thread referenced above insist that the j frame is more reliable than the R9s, or any semi, here is my experience:
several months ago bought S&W 340. First range session, first cylinder, the Corbon .357 rounds backed out from bullet pull on round number 3. Gun was totally out of commission...cylinder then actually fell off while trying to clear...the cylinder stop milled into the frame was too short.
Sent it to S&W and it was repaired, but anyone who says revolvers are totally reliable is just plain wrong. Also bought S&W 329 .44 magnum.(Ti-SC N frame). Again, on first range session, bullet pull totally shut gun down. It took me several MINUTES to get gun working again. I'm not knocking S&W here...it was just my experience.....I still love J frames.. but the above did actually happen.
OTOH, have now fired OVER 500 rounds through R9s...not one failure or bobble of any kind...what does this prove...nothing...I had a bad experience with j frame, but like it now that it has been fixed. However, I am more confident in my particular R9s than I am in my particular j frame, or ANY Ti-SC frame J frame. Bullet pull is a REAL problem with those in my limited experience.
I do agree with BillinPittsburg that Crimson Trace grips on j frame are very useful. It is amazing how well they work on that gun, again, at least for me. Although I have pretty much gone with R9s for everyday carry, I still carry j frame with crimson trace (plus my R9s) if I know I will be in dark environment and I feel particulary vulnerable. Choices are nice.
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[size=13]I think a picture from the top comparing the thickness of a revolver and a R9S (hint, hint ) might indicate why the R9S resides in my pocket.[/size]
Oh Ok ..... hint taken ..... and pic speaks for itself!! :P
(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/shoot4/r9-vs-sp2-s.jpg)
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Fantastic picture, thanks for that. That's what I'm looking for - flat in the pocket. I love my 340pd, but it does bulge...
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My R9 has replaced my S&W 642 as primary pocket carry. I also found that the my 642 fits well in a jacket pocket. As in the next step up in armament, I often carry my Kahr P9 IWB (inside the waisteband) with one to two exta mags. I found the Kahr is an excellent as a primary carry gun because it is thin, accurate, has excellent sights, a smooth trigger and a full grip. I have carried my R9 every day mainly as a BUG (back-up gun) and sometimes as a primary when attire dictates.
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Oh Ok ..... hint taken ..... and pic speaks for itself!! :P
Aha! Thank you sir! :D
By the way....you always take such nice pictures.
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[size=13]By the way....you always take such nice pictures.[/size]
Why thank you young Sir ..... appreciated ........ and, flattery will get you everywhere! ;D
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R9SCarry's ammo report is now being criticized on The High Road as evidence of keyholing / bullet tumble...
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Hmmm .. criticized? Well, I only report findings anyways.
Got a link for that Duane? Hadn't seen it.
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Its the same link that appears above:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97202
But I see you found it!
I thought your response was good. I didn't like the tone of the "criticism" -- it sounded to me like another "consipracy theory" of bullet tumbling and Rohrbaugh Forum cover up!
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Well .. it was hard to respond to what was IMO from Jim almost an ascerbic crit' ..... bit like a ''haha ... caught you out now!''. I agree - with hindsight .... I could have commented a bit better on those awful GS wet pack results .. IIRC when I wrote the thing up I was overtired and near out of adrenaline!
I keep trying to make it clear that I am not a ''praise for praise' sake'' owner .. I just try and call things as I see them. I can criticize my P3-At but still also have good stuff to say .. and same with R9. Just so happens I do NOT see this ammo-selective aspect as anything for which to criticize the gun per se. ..... rather, I see it as a function of a very small piece that has been scaled down almost to the nth degree possible ..... and as such, almost expect it to be a tad ''pernickety''!
The high cost is something people seem to forget - is based on highest quality CNC machining ... close tolerancing and .... the most enormous amount of R&D to get this far. I doubt any small gun can be called perfect in every possible respect ... they will all have their own idiosyncrasies..... and I accept those of the R9, seemingly with greater ease than its detractors.
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Despite the poll's placement over at High Road, R9S is still getting around 20% of the vote. Considering the disproportionate amount of people who own a J-frame vs an R9S in a revolver forum....I think its speaks well for the Rohrbaugh.
Wonder how many people who actually have experience with both an R9S and a J-frame voted in favor of the J?.......now that poll would interest me :D
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I like both... J frames and of course, the Rohrbaugh. The Rohrbaugh is smaller, holds more rounds, is flatter, and just as reliable in my experience. In other words, 100% so far. It may just be a wheel gun vs auto thing with some people. No reason not to admire and enjoy both. For ultimate smallness with maxi boom though, personally I think the Rohrbaugh comes out ahead. ;D
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The revolver/semiautomatic debate has been going on now for almost 100 years. The two types of weapon are different, but each one is beautiful and effective. (Rather like women -- if the Administrator will permit me to post a comment which might be considered politically incorrect in some circles . . . .)
RS
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Post, post, I love politically incorrect. :)
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Let me check the rules....
(Sound of pages flipping)
Nope! I think that is o.k. ;D
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Please do elaborate :D
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Shelb:
I think I'll quit while I'm ahead. My wife occasionally checks the Forum just to see what I'm posting here.
RS ;)
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LOL, my wife checks in on me from time to time as well :D
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O.K, I think revolvers are shaplier and have a lovely balance in the hand. Autos are kind of "flat" and square. Brunette, Brownette, Blonde or Redhead, they all have good features when they have good features. ;D
Now she can only get mad at the mouse, not any of YOU guys. ::)
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Geeezz... I don't let my wife near my web access. Not because I do anything, uh... untoward. Mostly because she does not need to know how much money all this stuff costs!
My gun dealer and I have a solemn agreement -- if we ever walk into his shop together, he has no idea who I am!
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Sounds like the arrangement I have with my dealer Duane. By the way, I have three S&W J frames in my safe right now, but I like the R9S better. The Rohrbaugh, besides being a very practical carry piece, has a mystique.
Frank
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http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/OtherHandguns.htm
This site has some interesting info on small revolvers.
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Geeezz... I don't let my wife near my web access. Not because I do anything, uh... untoward. Mostly because she does not need to know how much money all this stuff costs!
My gun dealer and I have a solemn agreement -- if we ever walk into his shop together, he has no idea who I am!
The dealer at one gun store I frequent has actually offered to print up fake raffle tickets for me, and leave phone messages for my wife to hear stating that I won a raffle. I've never taken him up on it, but hey, that's customer service! :)
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"Honey, you won't believe this......I won my fourth gun in a raffle at the shop today!" ;D
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Hehe ..... makes me think to of ....
''Oh that one Hon .... well, ya see - it's been at the back of the safe so long I'd clean forgot all about it. Seemed like time it had some air''! ;D
<ahem!!>
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as long as it's black, they can't tell the difference
I wonder if the "wife factor" expains those people with every different caliber Glock.
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I've learned that I have about a one-week window following any extravagant and unplanned purchase by my little lady during which I am able without complaint to indulge myself in what I call my "Second Amendment hobby." Of course, it also works the other way around. When I took delivery of my Rohrbaugh, I came home a few days later to find a new leather couch sitting where the old sofa used to be. (I rather liked that old sofa.)
RS
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My solution to the "wife factor" was a bit different.
When I first started dating my wife, I taught her how to shoot a pistol. That was our second date. That date was also when she found out I carry a gun.
She's been shooting ever since and has her own concealed handgun license. She shoots rather well with my Browning Buck Mark .22, and has also done well with a Smith & Wesson model 64 .38 spl. and a Beretta 92FS. We are still looking for something she would like to carry and good ways for her to carry it, but that will come.
So, her understanding of my shooting, and carrying a gun, and buying guns, isn't a problem.
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You got it made Bill! :)
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Bill:
I agree with Chris. You're a lucky man. Just be careful. My lady recently "appropriated" my Seecamp .32 with its old ivory grips. I had been urging her to carry something larger than her .22 MiniMag. I had in mind buying her the weapon of her choice. Instead, she rummaged around in my gunsafe and announced her selection. ??? The MiniMag is now her "backup."
RS
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Hi Richard,
I've actually been trying to tell her that my DRC-customized Kel-Tec P-32 would be a good choice for her mousegun, but she shot it once, put it down, and refused to finish the rest of the clip.
I might try her out on a Beretta Tomcat, a Beretta or Taurus .22 lr. pocket auto, or a NAA .22 mag. black widow if I get the chance. Need to get her something smaller but in 9mm as well. She wouldn't like a Rohrbaugh.
Your wife will be much better protected with the Seecamp and minimag than with the minimag and .22 short.
They do have a way of suprising us with their choices.
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Last night we were headed out for the movies. I dropped my 342 (the Rohrbaugh itsn't quite ready for solo duty yet -- probably after this weekend) into a DeSantis Insider IWB, which carries the gun very low, almost under the waistband.
My wife saw the holster's metal clip before I had my shirt on and asked me -- "what is that!" An objection to carrying a gun would have been highly unexpected from her, so I was confused. "My gun, of course." Then she says -- "How do you think you are ever going to get that out fast enough if you need it?"
I laughed and demonstrated the draw in a safe direction. She said -- "Oh... o.k." And off we went!
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Hi Richard:
The judge snatched the Seecamp? Glad to hear it. What made her finally do it? What happened to the 22 short.
The ivory grips, are those the ones that cracked? I've always liked ivory grips. But am concerned over there ability to work on a small auto. In the 1960-70's there was a Detroit fireman who made ivory revolver grips from old 19th century piano keys. He took his scrap and glued it up into blanks that he used for small auto's like baby Brownings. When new, they looked great. As they aged, you got to see the seam line and the little pieces would yellow at different rates. They looked sort of funky, but everyone knew they were real ivory and became a "status" symbol nevertheless.
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Hi Bill:
What have you gotten your wife to like? You know--Kahr, BHP, etc... As to pocketguns, what has she eliminated from contention?
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Hi George,
So far:
In .38 spl. revolvers, the smallest and lightest thing she likes is my Colt Detective Special. Even the steel-frame J-frames, which are close in size and weight, she didn't like. Forget about the lightweight J-frames. Problem is, I need to totally replace the front sight on the DS to make it a good choice.
She has tried the larger Kahr stainless steel "tactical" model and disliked it. Kahr's have particularly difficult slides to retract, so they are probably out.
She doesn't complain too much about Glocks, but doesn't really care for my 26 or the 34. She seems to like the 19 the best.
She didn't like the Sig. P239, or HK P7M8. I was really suprised she didn't like the P7, but the feed lips were sharp, and loading magazines isn't something she enjoys to begin with.
She didn't really care for any of the Taurus 9mm's she shot (then again, neither did I).
She does okay with 1911's, both a Springfield 9mm and my Kimber .45, but doesn't like the difficulty in retracting the slide.
I haven't even tried her out on the NAA .380, which I am certain would have too much recoil for her.
I haven't been able to try her out on a Ruger yet (I dislike the triggers but the slides are easy to retract), and I might also be able to try out a S&W 3900-series.
I am also looking for the opportunity to let her try a S&W J-frame in .32 mag., or the new Scandium one in .22 mag.
Fortunately the shooting range I use has a well-stocked rental case or I'd be spending a fortune on guns that would only end up in the safe. Usually, the shooting range I use has several manufacturer events per year, including Glock, Springfield, and S&W, but there hasn't been a single one this year.
In general:
The bigger and heavier the gun is, the more comfortable she will be.
Difficulty in retracting the slide or loading the magazine is a big turn off for her.
She doesn't really care for heavy DA trigger pulls but can use them if necessary (as I've said on the NAA board, about 40% of the women I have taken shooting have serious problems with and/or can't use a trigger pull over 9 lbs.).
So, I think the most likely options are:
Glock 19
A S&W J-frame in .32 mag. (or maybe even .22 mag.), with a Teddy Jacobson trigger job.
A S&W 3900 series, depending on how she likes the trigger.
A Beretta Tomcat.
A NAA .22 mag. Black Widow.
A Beretta or Taurus .22 lr. pocket auto.
I"m about ready to get her a Beretta Elite II for home defense and training.
I haven't spent a lot of time working with her with the pocket guns because she is still developing her shooting skill, and I don't want to handicap her with a difficult-to-shoot gun.
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Hi George,
Remembering further, I should add that she didn't like:
A CZ-83 in .380. I had been thinking that a smaller Beretta .380 that works like the 92FS she likes would make a decent carry gun for her, but if she didn't like this one then I doubt she will like the Beretta near-equivalent.
A Sig P-232 in .32.
A Colt Mustang in .380. Another big suprise: light trigger pull and tilt-barrel design make it easy to shoot with less recoil than other .380's.
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Hi Bill,
I have a Beretta, I believe, model 87 in .22 LR that is identical to the Beretta model 84 in .380. I would recommend starting her out with the model 87 in .22 LR and then getting her the .380 to carry. I use the model 87 to sharpen my skills when I don't feel like picking up brass. The only thing I don't like about them is the magazine safety.
Frank
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George:
I'm not really sure what finally changed her mind and caused her to move up in caliber from a .22 MiniMag to a .32 Seecamp. I think one of her bailiffs may have had something to do with it (following a conversation we had at the range in which I enlisted his support for the cause).
You have an excellent memory for detail. That Seecamp is indeed the weapon on which I once cracked one of the ivory grip panels during a rapid-fire session at the range. I had a new panel made from the same pre-ban tusk and started changing over to the original grips for range sessions.
As for the MiniShort . . . I'm still negotiating. There is just something about that little jewel which fascinates me.
RS