The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => Other Guns => Topic started by: C0untZer0 on May 02, 2014, 09:56:49 PM
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I purchased a CM9 this week.
Before I received my CCL, I was transporting my Rohrbaugh R9 in a 5.11 Select Carry Pistol Pouch. After getting my CCL, I've either left the loaded R9 in my car when entering places that were posted, or I would unload, put the unloaded R9 in the pack, and when I got back to my car, I would reload.
This got tiresome so I decided to get a second firearm that I can keep in the 5.11 pack. That way I don't have to be loading and unloading my R9 so frequently.
I purchased the Kahr CM9 from Grab-A-Gun for $319.99 plus $5.99 shipping, so I paid $325.98 total for the gun. I used Mike Losacco in Illinois to do the transfer. Mike is a great guy to work with, he charged 20 bucks and everything went smoothly.
The CM9 comes in a plastic bag, in a cardboard case. It was pretty oily when I took it out. It's not a big deal, I certainly don't want a rusty gun, but for whatever reason, it is the oiliest gun I've ever purchased. Also not a big deal because I am going to clean and lube it anyway. I was just thinking maybe Kahr is slathering on the oil for these little guns to deal with those people who take a gun straight out of the box and shoot it.
I haven't been to the range with the CM9 yet. I have been racking the slide on her over and over. I initially was using my right hand to rack it, but after looking in the mirror today, I think I need to switch up between both hands.
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1022;image)
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I also purchased a DeSantis Nemesis holster for the CM9 this week. I like the nemesis for my R9 so I decided to go with it for he CM9.
I didn't buy the CM9 for pocket carry but the first thing I did was put it in the Nemesis holster and try it out in my pocket. I think it is a pocket pistol. I definitely could tell a difference with the CM9 versus the R9, but my sense right now is that I could pocket carry the CM9 in jeans. I'm not sure if I could pocket carry it in business slacks or light shorts, but for regular jeans I think it will work.
I noticed that the CM9 looked a lot bigger in my pocket than the R9 – bigger than the pistol measurements would seem to account for. So I got out a ruler and I discovered that the OAL measurements for the CM9 are larger than what is published on Kahr's website.
Kahr gives the overall length of the CM9 as 5.42” If you measure just the slide from the rear to the muzzle end, the slide is 5.4375” So it is closer to 5.4” than it is to 5.2”. But that isn't really the OAL of the CM9. Putting the gun in a box, and putting the top of the slide against one wall of the box and sliding the gun until the rearmost part of the pistol touches another wall of the box, and measuring from there, the Kahr is actually 5.625” long. This is similar to how guns are measured with the IDPA box test if people are familiar with that.
Here are some side by side pictures of the CM9 and the R9:
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1026;image)
I'm using the holster DeSantis recommends for each gun. Obviously the CM9 holster is larger - but it is the Nemesis holster that DeSantis makes for the CM9/PM9.
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1024;image)
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The second thing I did was weigh the CM9. The gun itself came out to be slightly heavier than Kahr states on their web site, but not significantly. My scale said the CM9 weighed 14.1 ounces. I weighed it a number of times and checked the accuracy of the scale with a 1 ounce weight. On the other hand, the magazine turned out to be lighter than what Kahr has on their website. Kahr states that the magazine weighs 1.9 ounces and my scale had it at 1.5 ounces. The CM9 loaded with 7 rounds of Winchester RA9T weighs 18.9 ounces. When the holster is added, the whole thing weighs 20.8 ounces.
Here are some comparison photos with 2 different brands of generic jeans. I didn't fiddle with the pockets or anything, I put the holstered gun in the pocket, walked down a flight of stairs, sat down , stood up, walked up a flight of stairs, and moved around slightly to actually take the photos. I did the same for each gun.
Here is the R9:
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1028;image)
Here is the CM9:
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1030;image)
When I say my R9 disappears into my front pocket – it really does, and I noticed that when I put the holstered CM9 in my front pocket, I could look right down and see the butt of the gun. The CM9 holds the pocket open slightly – about ¾ of an inch.
I think this is because the R9 sits 2” deep in the pocket, while the CM9 only sits in the pocket a 1/4” deep. With the CM9 there is only 1/4” of space from the top of the gun to the opening of the pocket. I think because the CM9 doesn't sit in the pocket very deep, it sort of holds the pocket open by about 3/4”.
Here is the R9 in my other pair of jeans:
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1032;image)
Here is the CM9:
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1034;image)
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Loving the pic of the strong arm from racking the slide. Hilarious.
Can't wait to hear how the first 200 rounds go for ya.
Let us know.
I can't carry anything larger than a R9 or CW 380 comfortably in a pocket personally.
Love my solo but not in the pocket. I'm 5'7" and 200 so that may have a lot to do with it. Not to mention a touch OCD. It bothers me and pulls my pants and is too noticeable FOR ME : )
However I know everybody is different. You may like it there 12-16 hrs a day. I prefer crossbreed IWB so far.
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I actually did an experiment before I decided to buy a pocket pistol. I weighed out amounts of loose change at increasing amounts starting at 15 ounces.
When I got to 21 ounces the weight in my pocket was a frequent reminder that it was there.
The experiment also taught me the fallacy of the "A few ounces difference is not going to matter" argument. At some point an extra ounce does make a difference.
Twenty three ounces in my pocket was annoying.
Twenty five ounces total weight is my limit for pocket carry. I personally can't carry a pound and a half of weight in my pocket all day, - if other people can, more power to them.
Twenty seven ounces is barely tolerable even for a quick trip down to the store.
I did this experiment because I didn't want to plunk down a bunch of money for a pocket pistol only to find out pocket carry turned out to be uncomfortable for me.
My Rohrbaugh R9, loaded with seven rounds of 147gr ammo, sitting in a Nemesis pocket holster weighs in at 18.5
If anyone is interested a brass cased 115gr 9mm cartridge weighs about .39 oz
A brass cased 124gr 9mm cartridge weighs about .41 oz
A brass cased 147gr 9mm cartridge weighs about .46 oz
It might come in handy if, for instance you are looking at two pistols, just for example, like the CM9 and the SCCY pistols and think "there is only a 1 ounce difference between these two pistols"
In reality the CM9 is going to weigh between 18.7 oz and 19.1 oz fully loaded ( mine actually weighs 18.9 oz), while the SCCY is going to weigh between 21.5 oz and 22.25 oz fully loaded. Holsters add weight - the DeSantis Nemesis holster for the CM9 weighs just under 2 ounces. Doesn't seem like a lot of weight right? But it adds up an ounce at a time until it gets uncomfortable. So the CM9 is going to weigh around 21 ounces with a pocket holster, (mine actually weighs 20.8 ounces), and the SCCY is going to weigh around 24.5 ounces.
That 24 1/2 oz weight puts the SCCY in the range of uncomfortable for pocket carry for me personally, not even taking into account that the SCCY might be, (probably is) too big to pocket carry.
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I took some more pics because I have better lighting today. The camera can't really capture this, but I can look right down into my front pocket and see the butt plate of the CM9. But what the picture does illustrate is that the CM9 kind of holds the pocket open by about 3/4"
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1036;image)
I don't think it is a huge deal, it could be covered easily by wearing a loose shirt untucked, but it isn't as concealable as the R9.
With the R9, the pocket material just sort of folds over the top of pistol:
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1038;image)
What I am learning from this is
1) The stated dimensions and weights on the manufacturers website can be wrong, or don't take into account how the pistol will really be used. For Rohrbaugh, I think that 3.7" height measurement is for the gun empty, from the bottom of the magazine well to the top of the slide. When I measure with the magazine in, from the bottom of the magazine release to the top of the sights, I get 4.0" For Kahr, the actual OAL of the CM9 is 5.625” - significantly different from the published OA of 5.42" (when you're talking pocket pistols, a .20" difference is significant).
2) It is very difficult to make decisions just comparing specs. Here are the specs for the R9 and the CM9:
Rohrbaugh R9
Caliber: 9mm
Barrel: 2.9 in
Length: 5.2 in
Height: 3.7 in
Slide Width: .82 in
Width at thickest part of pistol: .95 in
Weight: 13.5 oz, magazine 1.6 oz
Capacity: 6+1 Rounds
Kahr PM9 / CM9
Caliber: 9mm
Barrel: 3.1 in
Length: 5.42 in
Height: 4.0 in
Slide Width: .90 in
Width at slide stop: 1.0 in
Weight: Pistol 14 oz, Magazine 1.9 oz
Capacity: 6+1
The specifications seem very close, you might think that .08" difference in slide width won't make a difference, or .22" difference in OAL doesn't make a difference. But it all adds up for an overall total effect. Part of why the CM9 holds my pocket open is because the pistol is closer to the top of the pocket, part of it is because it is a thicker pistol than the R9.
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I still haven't been to the range with the CM9, but a pleasant surprise today was how well it worked in the 5.11 Select Carry Pistol Pouch.
I really got the CM9 because of the odd situation in Illinois that prohibits carry of a firearm in certain places, but allows the transport of a firearm in some of those places.
To "transport" a firearm in Illinois, you must be a FOID card holder and the firearm must be in an unloaded and in an enclosed case. There was a court case where an Illinois judge ruled that a fanny pack constituted a case. So that means that I can have an unloaded firearm in a fanny pack. Without getting too complicated, it doesn't mean that I can walk into a courthouse, post office or a school with a gun in a fanny pack, and some people might debate whether it allows me for instance, to take my kids to the park (public playground) transporting an unloaded firearm in a fanny pack. Under the Illinois CCL act though - a place like a playground is a prohibited area. So for people who carry they would either have to be unarmed in a place like this, or they could choose to "transport" an unloaded encased firearm. Now I want to say that when anti-gunners made public parks / playgrounds prohibited places in the Illinois Firearms Concealed Carry Act they of course tried to instill fear of dangerous guns around children and argued that they were making our playgrounds safer for children Of course many rapes, robberies, muggings and child abductions happen at places that are designated as a park or playground. So anyway that is an explanation of the odd situation in Illinois.
What I found myself doing when encountering some prohibited areas was unloading my R9 in the car, putting it and the magazine in the pack, - switching to "container transport" and then whenever my activity or task was over, I would reload the R9 (in my car), put it back in the holster, and put the holster in my pocket. That is a lot of loading and unloading.
So I got a second gun that will be kept unloaded and in the 5.11 Select Carry Pistol Pouch. When I need to switch to "container transport" I will just lock the R9 in the safe in the car and strap on the 5.11 Select Carry Pistol Pouch with the unloaded CM9.
I would have liked to have gotten another R9 but I can't afford it, and all the advantages that the R9 has as far as weight and size are not really necessary if I am carrying a pistol in a pack.
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I got a pleasant surprise when I tried the CM9 out in my 5.11 Select Carry Pistol Pouch.
The CM9, in the Nemesis holster, fits in the pouch. And when I yank on the quick release tab, the holster swings out but stays in the pouch. It is almost like it is on a hinge, when I open the pouch the holster and gun swing out and the gun presents itself at a 45º angle. Here is a picture of it:
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1040;image)
It is really easy to draw, just reach down and grab the gun, and the Nemesis holster stays in the 5.11 Select Carry Pistol Pouch.
I'm really liking this so far...
Here is the previous review of the 5.11 Select Carry Pistol Pouch and Ka-Bar TDI:
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?topic=7205.0
I just have to get to CM9 the range and see how this gun functions.
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Well I read a number of posts about the CM9 having problems, but when Grab-A-Gun started selling them for $320 it was vey tempting and I read a lot of posts from owners who said their PM9 / CM9 was flawless, and I thought the odds of me getting a problem Kahr were low.
One of the things that new owners apparently must do is to check to see if the magazine springs were put in the right way. I thought the odds of me getting a magazine with the mag springs installed backwards would be very very low. I thought that it probably was a problem that happened on a limited number of Kahrs and was fixed a while ago.
So I was a little baffled when I took the base plate off and the magazine was not oriented the way it is in the owner's manual.
I went to the KahrTalk forum and looked at some pictures and confirmed that my magazine spring had indeed been installed backwards.
And then a little piece of plastic fell out of the magazine and I looked at the follower and realized that I had a broken magazine follower,
AND I HADN'T EVEN SHOT THE GUN YET !
Here is the broken follower:
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1042;image)
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That is astounding, C0unt, and thanks for sharing. I read recently that the CM-9 and other recently lower priced Kahrs have many more MIM parts than their more expensive models to reduce cost and price. It looks like they went too far going too cheap. Their quality assurance must be non-existent.
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Well actually the MIM part doesn't have anything to do with it, The feed ramp is steep and if a Kahr is made to spec, the magazine sits very very close to the feed ramp. I forgot the name of the part under the barrel, is it called linkage? - Y'know basically it is the loop underneath the barrel that the pin goes through, I don't think it is called a barrel lug right? Anyway some CM9 barrels are slightly out of spec and and bump up against the follower, so when the gun is actually fired the part directly underneath the feed ramp whacks the plastic follower and cracks it.
It can be fixed by sanding down that extra material, and it doesn't weaken the link or anything.
But speaking of MIM, I fired 100 rounds out of my CM9 today and the only problem I had was on round 94 the slide didn't lock back.
It's not the end of the world, I mean my Rohrbaugh doesn't lock back at all right? ;D I am going to chalk it up to having a broken follower. But that slide stop is a MIM part. I am hoping I don't have any more trouble with it.
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It is called the barrel lug on the CM9. I didn't mean to imply that MIM parts were related to your issue--only as ancillary information to paint the big picture on using cheap parts. I noticed on a Dan Wesson pistol description that they specifically state no MIM parts are used on their guns.
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Oh it is called the barrel lug... OK thanks.
Well Kahr made it a little too thick so the lug extends too far back and hits the follower.
The slide stop is MIM and I did have a failure to lock open after the last round. It could have been because of the broken follower - the section that broke off is right below the part of the follower that presses up on the slide stop, but I think it is more likely that I was pressing down on the slide stop with my thumb.
I really don't need a last round hold open in a CQC pistol and on the Kahr the inner knuckle of my shooting thumb is right there on the slide stop. Either I am at risk to push up on it causing an interruption in firing or pushing down on it so the slide doesn't lock open. I'm fine with the latter.
The way you load the pistol is by pushing down on the slide stop - for once I think it is OK to call it a slide release :) But I wonder how the MIM part is going to stand up to the stainless steel slide over time.
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I wonder if the follower broke when they test fired it at the factory.
My Seecamp .380 broke both of the followers on its mags and when talking to Larry he said not to shoot the last round because they are prone to do that. So perhaps your cm has a similar issue. Perhaps not. How else do you explain a broken follower?
Also, my CW .380 is having issues locking back the slide FYI.
I haven't pin pointed the problem on the Kahr yet but I don't have a broken follower.
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I think the follower did break when they test fired it at the factory.
I know I discovered the broken follower before I ever went to the range.
I thought maybe the slide didn't lock back that one time because I might have been pushing down on the slide stop. But then today I was lubing the gun, and I locked the slide back and checking to see if I had put grease on the barrel when all of a sudden the slide shot forward. Like the slide stop slipped or something. Maybe unrelated events - I am going to shoot it some more, soon, and hopefully I don't have issues.
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I have been to the range twice with the CM9, shooting "NATO" ammo.
When I say NATO - I mean 124gr FMJ rated at or near 1200 fps from a 5" barrel. That is a little hotter than the average and quite a bit hotter than the rather anemic 124gr Blazzer Brass rated at 1090 fps.
Fifty rounds of the Winchester Ranger RA9124N (NATO) and 150 rounds of the Georgia Arms 124gr "NATO" I haven't had a failure to ignite, FTE, FTF or anything in the first 200 rounds. I am going to shoot another 50 rounds of Georgia Arms "NATO" today and then try some premium SD hollow points.
I have a box of 147gr bonded Golden Sabre which gave my R9 fits, I'll try that in the CM9 today :)
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Watching to see your range results Count.
I'm finding my little cheap CW380 very accurate for such a little gun.
Keep us posted. This may be my next purchase. What did ya have to pay for it?
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$320.00 plus $6.00 shipping
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Palmetto State Armory had the CM9s on sale yesterday for $299.99 plus free shipping - I hate when something goes on sale right after I buy it.
Well anyway here is the deal with my CM9, I keep calling Kahr and telling them that the barrel broke the follower in the magazine and they keep sending me new followers. The way the barrel breaks the followers doesn't stop them from functioning so I'm using two mags with broken followers.
Today I put 50 rounds of Georgia Arms 124gr NATO, 10 rounds of 147gr Federal HST and 40 rounds of 115gr Winchester "Target" FMJ, through the CM9 without any problems.
I am at 300 rounds through the CM9 with no problems other than the followers being broke.
I did have an instance on my first time out with the gun where the slide didn't lock back on the last round but I think now that it was because my thumb was pressing down on the slide stop.
I like the fact that it will eat cheap 115gr practice ammo - it shoots it pretty accurately too. For some reason that I don't know, I make fairly large shot groups with Federal HST.
I've shot all "NATO" 124gr FMJ through it up till now - (meaning 124gr FMJ rated at or near 1200 fps from a 5" barrel) and today was the first day I shot premium SD ammo from it. I got very different results from the 147gr Federal HST. I know the HST target is a 10-round shot group, but even still, my first 3 shots made a 3" triangle.
I don't know what to think - my CM9 doesn't like 147gr Federal HST ?
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1102;image)
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1104;image)
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7351.0;attach=1106;image)
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Targets don't lie.
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I shot 124gr FMJ, the 147gr HST and then the 115gr Winchester FMJ - I am sure I didn't change anything during my shooting, but you can see the Federal HST has significantly larger spread.
But anyway, the gun goes bang when I pull the trigger.
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Comparing apples to apples I would be very interested to see the 124 gr HST groups against the HST 147 groups.
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With the longer bullets leaving with considerably less velocity, the short barrel may not be stabilizing the 147 gr bullets completely.
Shoot some at 50 to 75 feet and look for key holing. I am just guessing.
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Comparing apples to apples I would be very interested to see the 124 gr HST groups against the HST 147 groups.
Must...
Use..
Gunbot...
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May be just a coincidence, but I couldn't hit well and I had a few more problems with the federal range ammo out of my cw380.
I was shooting at 8" steel at 50 ft and plinking it like clockwork with the Remington and Winchester range ammo. I then went to the federal and could not get routine hits on that steel.
I reloaded took a more careful aim and had the same issue.
It was noticeable. It wasn't their premium SD stuff, but it was federal and it was in a Kahr.
Perhaps coincidence.
?????????????
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I was debating sending the CM9 in to get the feed ramp fixed / shortened or doing it myself. I thought I would call Kahr just to get another follower and Ian at Kahr told me to send the whole gun in. They e-mailed me a pre-paid air waybill. I shipped it to Kahr and I got it back yesterday, it took them 10 days.
Most Kahr owners who fixed the problem themselves would just grind a little material off of the feed ramp until they had clearance between the feed ramp and the follower. They just took off a little bit of material. But Kahr really shortened the feedramp, they weren't fooling around.
They must have test fired it and I'm guessing they use cheap and fairly dirty ammo because my CM9 came back dirty, it had more carbon on it than I see after 50 rounds of shooting and I doubt they'd put more than a dozen rounds through it - though I could be wrong.
A few weeks ago I lost the locking plate from my magazine. The locking plate on my CM9 mag seemed loose, and without depressing the locking plate detent, I gave the baseplate a little nudge to see if it was locked in place or not.
It wasn't.
The baseplate and locking plate flew across the room ( just barely missing my computer monitor)
I was able to find the baseplate but I never did find the locking plate, and it retails for $8.80 if you buy it off of Kahr's site.
I sent the mag with the broken follower in sans locking plate and they gave me a new one :)
Well, I am taking it back to the range this morning, we'll see how it shoots. I was so snxious that Kahr might affect the functioning of the pistol with their "fix" that I was tempted to just keep it and use it with broken followers.
We'll see how it goes.
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Also - I got fried egg primers and light strikes in my R9 with Remington 147gr Bonded Golden Sabres.
I am going to try them in my CM9 this morning and see how they work in the Kahr.
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I shot ten 124gr Lawman TMJs, ten 147gr Bonded Golden Sabres and forty rounds of 115gr Winchester FMJ through the CM9 with no broken followers and no other problems. Two of the Golden Sabres I shot were the two that my R9 nicked but didn't ignite.
I did get a jam when I tried to chamber the first round by slingshoting the slide, but Kahr tells you to lock the slide back and use the slide stop lever to load the gun. I've never had a problem when loading the gun via hitting the slide stop (slide release) lever.
It looks like Kahr fixed the feed ramp and the CM9 is still shooting reliably.
I sort of want to carry the Golden Sabres in the CM9 but I don't have any short-barreled tests to confirm how they'd do.
I do know the 147 HSTs perform well and my CM9 shoots cycles them reliably.
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Thanks for the report; HSTs are superb, in my limited experience.
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I wish ShootingTheBull410 would test the Winchester Ranger "T" Series RA9T out of a 3" barrel. I have 200 rounds of that stuff.
I only have 1 box of the Federal 147gr HST.
I only have 1 box of the 147gr Golden Saber but it is not as hard to get. I could buy 10 boxes of it right now