The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Gunsmithing or Modifications for your Rohrbaugh => Topic started by: jaycee on November 16, 2006, 04:12:17 PM
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Hello to all. Spoke to Karl Rohrbaugh today. Around Mid January 2OO7, all magazines will have a stiffer spring, about the same time, for those who already own a rohrbaugh handgun, these new springs will be offered for sale by Rohrbaugh as an option. For your info the new springs will be comparable to those found/used in the magazines of the Kahr MK9 or Kahr PM 9. for those familiar with the Kahrs. By the way the Kahrs do have a very stiff magazine spring. Hopefully this will solve some of the problems that some are experiencing with their handguns. :)
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Great news, I think.
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Excellent news!
Good to know that Rohrbaugh is reading here and evaluating what is posted to keep improving.
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Are they doing this because people thought it would be a good idea, or because they did some testing and found that it solved some problems?
Many months ago, a gunsmith I trust, Bruce Gray, suggested that issues with the R9 might be "magazine timing" issues. More recently, others have suggested the same thing. We have also seen suggestions that new floor plates, which hold the magazine in the grip a bit more tightly, might help. So the stronger magazine spring idea was born.
Finally, why wait until January 2007 before shipping these standard? If they solve problems, why not phase them in right away? I have a stealth on order and will probably get it before January, so now I am thinking I should hold off, since I won't want to pay extra for magazine springs I need. If they don't solve problems, well, then why would Rohrbaugh be doing it?
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Hello Jarcher, Happy Thanksgiving to you an you family. I saw your post and will give you an update . (1) The recoil spring should be changed after every 100 ,this is official. .(2) Rohrbaugh is rushing the manufacture of the new stiffer magazine springs, as we speak. New springs should be available about the next two weeks. When the new springs are available, the handguns then manufactured will have the new springs as standard.. owners who have already purchased their handgun ,can,if they want to purchase these springs from Rohrabugh ,as a separate option. If I were you I will hold off on that purchase. :)
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Shouldnt they give new ones to recent buyers?
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Thanks Jaycee, I'll see if I can postpone shipment.
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ketap,
Not necessarily. Most R9's apparently function fine with the present magazine springs.
Mike
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Mine have been fine so far..
When I spoke to Maria 2 weeks ago,she did not know of any changes with springs(recoil),or grip screws(which I ordered anyways)
Brenden
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Brenden,
That's MAGAZINE SPRINGS not recoil springs.
Mike
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RR,
Understood on the springs.. ;)
She was not aware at that time of any changes-I asked.. :)
I understood that the grip screws may be different,and told no? also on the "other" springs..
Things are changing all the time-I know.. ;D
Brenden
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First I would like to thank Rohrbaugh for attempting to produce a fine custom handgun.
I believe that the idea is a good one however the lack of research and development has proven to be a problem.
When I first received my Pup, I heard rumors that I would need to change my recoil spring every 500 rounds. This did not sound right as I have several other pistols with thousands of rounds through them without ever requiring a recoil spring change. The next thing I heard was that they needed to be changed after 200 rounds and now it is down to 100 rounds. What's next, each box of ammo???
During the past eight months, this group has uncovered several issues as to safety and reliability. I have read numerous posts in reference to ammo problems, recoil spring problems, slides cracking and now magazine problems. This weapon has become a hobby instead of a functional handgun that one can carry with confidence.
When I purchased this weapon, it was to carry as a secondary weapon while I am at work and an off duty piece when I'm not at work. Either way, it needed to be one that I could use in a life threatening incident.
It now sits in my safe pending major upgrades.
What angers me is that it fits well in my hand, it shoots straight, it's a major caliber and it conceals well.
It just isn't reliable.
Hopefully these issues can be addressed and corrected in the near future.
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Phantom,
Why is it in your safe pending major upgrades? If it is
as bad as you say, why isn't it at the factory?
Although a small number of guns have had documented
problems, I don't think that disqualifies all of the others
that are reliable. In a perfect world all guns should be
flawless but they aren't. Rohrbaugh, to my knowledge,
has fixed almost all of the problem guns; in a very few
cases resolution could not be reached and, I believe,
some refund were granted to the owner. If it were
a bad design or lack of research and engineering we would
have had more than a few problems.
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Phantom,
While I understand and mostly agree with most of your post I can say that my #1 is probably the most finicky R9 on the planet and #2 is better but not perfect. With that said since I found the ammo that mine like they are 100% reliable. The ammo mine like might not be the ammo most prefer to carry but I am confident with it. The R9 is not perfect, it pushes the 9mm envelope to the absolute maximum. You can't expect to have the eat any ammo like a CZ for thousands of rounds experience with the R9.
Mine are reliable and I carry them.
I would much prefer to carry a more capeable handgun on my hip for all to see but that is not possible in my state.
Mike
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I'm looking forward to getting new mag springs when they become available, too. As a new purchaser of an R9s (last week, in fact) I DO think the springs should be free, but if not, I'll still want them. I suspect that all the minor problems I've had with ammo feed are attributable to magazine issues. The gun is finely made and tolerances seem extremely tight. That said, I must agree with Phantom. Until the gun works flawlessly every time I fire it I can't carry it as a last ditch personal defense weapon. None of my other firearms have reliability issues like my R9s does, so I rely on them for CCW. When my R9s is able to join their ranks it'll become my all day every day pocket gun. Until then, it's a work in progress for me.
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I agree with tracker. If your pup is having problems send it back to Rohrbaugh and have them look at it. A very small % of guns had problems and the rest are carried on a daily basis.
Tom
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Phantom:
What Tracker and Tom said. Many of us out here have R-9s which have proven to be fully reliable. The Rohrbaugh team will work with you to insure that yours is fully reliable as well.
I once owned a few thoroughbred horses. The R-9 has some things in common with a thorougbred -- they're beautiful, fast, and powerful . . . but they can also be a bit "high strung." Get them ready to race, though, and they're hard to beat.
Good luck on getting yours "ready to race."
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There is no doubt in my mind that Rohrbaugh will fix it. I have heard nothing but good things about them. The reason that I have not sent mine back is I hate sending it back and the following week I find out that there is another fix in the works. I may be waiting a while however I am still waiting for them to come out with a recoil spring that doesn't collapse after 200 rounds of ammo. I personally feel that a spring that goes bad that fast, is not a reliable spring. I don't want to have to worry about my secondary or off duty piece sitting in the holster with a spring that might not work because I put 150 rounds through it and forgot to add a new spring with the ammo.
My other concern is that I only know three other people that own these race horses and all three of us have had problems. Two feeding problems and one cracked slide. Not very good odds, three out of three.
Hopefully, all of these issues will be corrected soon and I can send it back one time and then start carrying it with confidence.
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Phantom,
I agree with you on the springs although I don't feel it is
a major issue. You didn't imagine the 500 rounds first
recommended: it is in my owner's manual. I personally
would prefer chrome silicon springs and we would not be
discussing this issue.
I hope you can resolve your issues and gain confidence in
your pup and not condemn the breed.
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Tracker,
You have nothing to worry about from me bad mouthing my little beast. I talk to you guys as most of you have run across the same problems. I also believe that we are the final research and development for Rohrbaugh and there is nothing wrong with that. This is how we help him and his group make the needed improvements. I say if that is what it takes, then by all means we should do it. Your statement on chrome silicon springs should be looked into. We have already put over a thousand dollars into our little beasts, what's a few more to add to their reliability. This little pistol is so close to being perfect, I would hope that we can keep coming up with good ideas on making this the best, most reliable, most accurate small major caliber hand cannon on the market.
I would also like to thank all of you for your guidance and tenacity.
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S.F. Perhaps you should consider sending it back NOW, and if its not to your satisfaction you could investigate a "trade in" for the .380 model. Im sure it will be much more reliable. I understand your frustrations and concerns. My pup was horrible until I modified it. Id love a stealth but from what ive heard they have issues to so fool me once, etc. It seems ALOT more problems have arose then the kool-aid crowd sometimes care to admit but attempts ARE being made. At least thats a step in the right direction! If your willing to keep working on it, try the new mag springs. That seems to be a major issue. And keep us posted!
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Koolaid,
If you recall I suggested he send it back for rework also.
How did you fix yours?
If you are associating those of us who have flawless R9s
with the Jim Jones koolaid unfortunate victims then you
are way off base. You may find that we, the "koolaid kids",
have at least as much if not more real world and foreign
shores experience than you could have in your wildest
dreams.
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Id love a stealth but from what ive heard they have issues to so fool me once, etc.
What problems has the stealth had?
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jarcher, don't worry about it. Tom
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Koolaid,
If you recall I suggested he send it back for rework also.
How did you fix yours?
If you are associating those of us who have flawless R9s
with the Jim Jones koolaid unfortunate victims then you
are way off base. You may find that we, the "koolaid kids",
have at least as much if not more real world and foreign
shores experience than you could have in your wildest
dreams.
If your that thin skinned I doubt you've had much experience on any shore in any of your wildest dreams or hallucinations. Lighten up dude. I never mentioned you or associated you as a koolaid kid or anything else. If i had, believe me youd know it. While ive no idea what you mean or are trying to say with that comment if you feel the need to broadcast that you were some super mall ninja somewhere or whatever why not create a seperate post just for that? You obviously dont know me or you'd know how I "fixed mine". Im sure as you read this your preparing to post pictures of medals and awards from some elite unit and indeed drafting some paper as well. Feel free to take this as an opportunity to do so.
Now I will make an effort to retort: I have nothing but respect for Karl Rohrbaugh. Never spoke with Eric so I cant comment. Many R-9 owners have had trouble free products that im sure have not posted here. Thats fine. But many have posted here that have. I for one think thats obvious, and hope they can enjoy a trouble free product in the future. However the same lame "mines perfect, limpwrister, wrong ammo, etc" retorts hold little if ANY comphort for one who has obsearved less than perfect results with the R-9. That was, and is the point of my original post.
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No further comment needed; you got the point,
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After reading numerous posts, it looks like springs are one of the problems that many of us have in common. Have any of you heard anything about someone coming out with a chrome silicon spring kit? Not knowing too much about springs, you would think that there would be a better material that would hold the shape and strength. Maybe not, just a thought.
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http://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/
Attached is a link about chrome silicon alloy springs.
Marc also produces and sells them. I own several--
glock--1911--HKp7,etc,. and endorse them.
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Was having lots of feeding problems with my R9 OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS so before sending it back I packed up both magazines and sent them back to the factory for inspection.Got a call from Karl this afternoon.One of the mags was out of spec so he replaced it and he changed out the spring in the other mag with one of the new stiffer springs.He indicated that the new springs were correcting many of the reported feeding problems.
When I get the upgrades I'll test them and give you'll a reliability report.
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Marvin:
In case I haven't welcomed you to the Forum previously, I do so now.
Let us know if the magazines were indeed the source of your R9's problems. (They're often the cause when a semi-automatic starts coughing up hairbballs.)
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All good info. on possible improvements to our R9's.
In case there are any newbies and or lurkers reading, capt.koolaid fixed his R9 jam problems by installing Walther P-38 magazine floorplates in his magazines. This allowed the mag to seat deeper. This mod worked for him. The above mag floorplates are available from Numrich. They are a long time guns parts supplier and can be found on the web.
Mike
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I received an early set of the extra long, extra heavy duty mag springs and they do correct 99% of my feeding problems. (What a bear to install!)
I was still having an occassionaly fail to eject the empty and a couple of strange double feeds (last two rounds, top round high hit in chamber with next round shoved forward into the lower part of the feedramp).
This was in 100 rounds of self defense ammo. I decided to quit wasting ammo and called it a day.
When I cleaned my R9S I realized my recoil spring was all but shot. I had probably 400 rounds through it from the factory rebuild so I don't know how many rounds they put through it during the rebuild tests. I didn't realize the recoil spring is now 100 rounds then exchange. Looks like I need to buy a couple of more. I'm trying to sort through ammo it likes, but since I had a worn out recoil spring my prior tests are not worth snot.
I've been away too long and haven't been following the trends. My R9S is a long and sordid story. I told it once on a quick sale ad, but I took it down after talking to Karl, again, when he mentioned the new mag springs.
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Tracker, the ISMI site is sick. Not much is working on it. I am going to call them however I was wondering if anyone had spoke to Mr. Rohrbaugh as to the recoil spring issue?
I remember when Glock came out with their springs and they were suppose to be some sort of new material. I was involved in a test where we put over 10 thousand rounds through a model 17. Never had to replace a spring in it nor any other parts. I also understand that the size of the springs are an issue as the R9s are much smaller.
I am not willing to give up on my pup as I can't believe that we can't find a fix for the recoil problem.
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Phantom,
Thanks, I didn't know about the web site but feel sure
that Marc can answer any questions and is quite helpful.
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Just wanted to drop in and wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Years.
Take care, stay safe and have a wonderful holidays.
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dmobrien2001:
+1 on those new magazine springs!
First, I got a new batch of RECOIL SPRINGS that are much stiffer than the original ones. At the range, I found I was suddenly getting failures to feed. The next round (Win. Silvertip) wasn't making it all the way into the chamber. Not exactly a jam, but obviously the new RECOIL SPRING had upset the gun's timing.
I spoke to Maria and had her send me new MAGAZINE SPRINGS. They are heavier gage wire (0.046" vs. 0.042") and 13 coils vs. 10 coils of the original mag springs. Free length is almost 2.5 inches longer! I put the mag in my wood-jaw vise to assemble. You want to get the pieces lined up square and slip the base plate on while keeping your face out of the line of "fire". If your thumb slips those parts go a long way.
Between the new RECOIL SPRING and MAGAZINE SPRING, my R9S is quite a finger strength exercise machine.
I'm planning a practice session next week. Hopefully, I'll have the same luck as other Forum members.
Steve
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Steve
When did you receive the new RECOIL Springs? I got some new ones just before christmas and I'd hate to install one and renew my now corrected feed problem.
How did you correct the new recoil spring induced malfunction?
I had one of the old MAG springs get loose on me earlier this year.I lost track of it after it bounced off the ceiling the floor and two walls.My wife found the MIA spring three weeks later in a flower pot.
To all reading this post please be careful and wear eye protection when changing the MAGAZINE Spring.There is a dangerous amount of potential energy stored in that compressed spring and it could hurt ya.
Jeff
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Steve, I have the new recoil springs and the new magazine springs both installed in my Rohrbaughs, they were perfectly,you can sense the difference,when firing the gun.By the way the new recoil springs are made by Wolff.As I also mentioned previously, there will be very shortly new magazine followers, built to the same specs as the old ones,except better materials/composition- Rohrbaugh listens. :)
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Hello all,
Geez, if the modifications ever stop my call to Rohrbaugh is going to be expensive. I am going to get a set of G10's for my standard R9s, some extra grip screws just in case I lose one, recoil springs, mag springs and followers. At least I can recoup some money as I intend to sell the black CF's on my standard R9s. I have the stealth and I much prefer the G10 grips.
I thank God for this forum. Without it I would be hopelessly adrift as far as my R9's go.
Mike
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I'll be trying the new set-up on Monday. Manually cycling rounds thru the gun doesn't prove much, of course, but it sure ejects and chambers smartly.
Guess I'll have to order some of those new followers too. I wish Rohrbaugh would ship those small parts via U.S. mail rather than signature-required-for-delivery UPS. It probably makes Rohrbaugh's life easier to use one carrier and set of rules for everything, but it is costly and inconvenient for customers of non-FLL parts. Or maybe NY requires that. I'll ask Maria next time I order.
Steve
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Hey Riffraff, look at it this way, with the new trio-new recoil springs, new mag.springs and mag.followers- you will be very contented. That is, until the new R45 comes into being :)
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jaycee,
I think the R45 will have to be quite a bit larger than the R9. The R9 is at the top of the size envelope that I prefer. I don't own any 45's and don't want to have to stock yet another caliber of ammo. I will pass on the R380 and the R45. I will just concentrate on makeing my R9's the best that they can be.
Mike
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New recoil springs and mag followers now? Okay, how do we know which of which we have? I received my new stealth recently and it came with the old mag springs. How do I know which recoil spring and followers it has?
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;D ;D The new magazine springs along with the newest recoil springs worked perfectly. I tried every kind of ammo in my locker except Rem. Golden Saber. I have a box somewhere - couldn't find it. Speer GDHP, Win. Silver Tip, white box practice FMJ, yellow box FMJ. No issues at all.
As a control, I left the original spring in one mag. It failed to feed every other round. Back to the mags with new springs, using ammo from the same batch that just gave me trouble. No problem. I'm quite pleased with my now - 900 round veteran.
I did notice that the recoil spring had shortened considerably after only 50 rounds or so.
Steve
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Haven't yet changed to the new recoil springs but when I last changed the old spring it was two coils shorter than the replacement.After only two mags I took the pistol down and the just replaced spring had already shortened by two coils.
That raises the question of when to replace the spring;ie spring shortening might not be a reliable measure of spring performance.
I'm sticking with the 100 round replacement recomendation.
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I haven't been paying too much attention lately,,, so sorry if there is a more recent thread to report range findings regarding the new magazine springs. I ordered two springs a couple of months ago based on positive experiences by some at this forum. Previously I experienced failure to eject problems approximately 5 - 10 % of the time, it didn't seem to matter which of my 4 magazines were used. After installing the new springs I've had 100% reliability from the two updated magazines. Each one has now been loaded up 12 times each with handloaded 124 gr Gold Dots which approximate the velocity of purchased ammo. I'm satisfied that this now solves my problems, especially because after disassembly I found that my recoil spring was quite a bit shorter than the new one I was about to replace it with.
It's now time to order new springs for the other two mags and more recoil springs. I think the 100 round replacement of the recoil spring should now be addressed. I still believe this is one heck of a partner for daily carry, but having the additional confidence of the recoil spring having a longer life would add to the warm fuzzy.
:)
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Well guys, I have been doing some research on our spring issue and Marc at ISMI is willing to put a spring package together and use Chrome Silicon steel. In the past, I have used this material if different weapons with great sucess. I spoke to him again this morning and he would like to hear from other Pup owners as to their interest in a spring kit update. He believes that we would be able get 5-10 thousand rounds out of his springs using Chrome Silicon. Let's see, replacing our spring every 100 rounds vs 5,000 rounds....hmm. Need I say more?
For additioinal info e-mail ISMI at: sale@ismi-gunsprings.com
Our Pups have been compared to thorougbred race horses. I'm not going to feed my horse rice, I going to put Chrome Silicon oats in his belly instead...
Hope this helps.
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For additional info on material issues, this is a must read.
http://www.davidtubb.com/tcom_images/speedlock/cs_springs.pdf
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what is the cost? Tom
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Tom,
I have used Marc's springs on 1911s, Glocks, and p7-M8s.
The cost is very reasonable for what it buys you in long-
gevity. I don't think I paid more than $10 for any spring
of Marc's. The suggestion to make them for the pup would
seem to be a no-brainer; Marc has to hear from a minimum
no. of interested owners to make it worth his while.
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Howdy - count me in for 4 springs to start with.
Reinz
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I'd grab two of 'em.
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Sent an email to the company tellin' them I'm in! Hope to hear back soon.
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I'll give 'em a try too!
Mark
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Did anything ever come of this?
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Karl, stated that he looked into these and various other springs and the chrome silicon springs wasn't right for these guns. Right now the springs being used are the top of the line for these guns.
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Just as an FYI. I had a rough beginning with my little guy as well. When I first got it it failed to cycle after just 2 rounds through it. These little guns are not glocks that eat any ammo. They are as fussy as Lamborgini's. When operating perfectly they are the best. When they go bad, it's really tough to fix. Carl fixed mine perfectly. It has never failed as long as I feed it the correct ammo. These weapons are very ammo sensitive.