The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh Wish List => Topic started by: harrydog on June 07, 2004, 09:25:12 AM
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Actually, I'm just kidding.
9mm is plenty for a pocket gun.
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haha! I reckon we have all given this some thought! Inevitable eh! It could I'm sure be done but -- obviously, fatter,a bit heavier - and not quite so ''pocketable''.
So yeah .. for me 9mm is it. That works!
BTW .. Welcome. :)
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I'd like to say Bersa, but I just can't remember, but about 6 months ago, I saw a fairly small 45 ACP, that had a Rohrbaugh kind of look to it. You could put it in your pocket, but it wasn't a pocketgun.
As to pocketguns, the Rohrbaugh footprint is about as large as you can get and still fit my definition of a true pocketgun. (Ie. conceal it in a holster in a rear pocket of most slacks.)
People keep talking about Kahr coming out with a plastic 45 ACP. I hope it is true. I like the caliber and would love a 45 smaller or lighter than my Glock 36.
I like that new Smith snub nosed 45 revolver. It is so ugly, it is beautiful.
I've never found a ankle holster that I really liked. But guns like the Rohrbaugh, the Kahr PM9 and PM40, makes me want to reconsider.
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George .... I got a ''Pro-Tech'' ... ''Outdoors'' ankle rig and it holds my P3-AT nicely .. and so also does a good job with the R9 .... it's comfortable and so far about best i have found.
''Anklepocket'' also is a good rig but more bulky ... and a tad hot in warmer conditions.
If you wish I will take a pic of the former to let you see it. Just ask.
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GeorgeH,
I've got a Bersa Thunder 45 pictured below. It is small but way too big (and heavy) for pocket carry. For $299 though, it is a great buy for a compact .45 ACP. Quality is excellent and performance more than adequate for a short barreled big bore...
Years ago (back in the '80s), I did carry a Detonics 45 in an ankle holster...
(http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/thunder_45_bore.jpg)
(http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/thunder_45.jpg)
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Well, if you really, really must carry a really, really small .45 pistol, you can always get yourself one of these babies.
http://hunting.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.downsizer.com
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Harry - pretty incredible piece I'll admit ..... would mean tho in extremis ... you'd sure being praying for a one-shot-stop!!
(''Hang on BG - I gotta reload''! ) (http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBBImages/laugh.gif)
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Want more than one shot? There is always the Simmerling LM4
(http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/simmerling.jpg)
Quote:
"The legendary Simmerling is one of the smallest .45 ACP's ever made. This incredible vest pocket pistol has a 5-shot capacity, and the first round is carried in the chamber ready for instant use just like a revolver or a larger frame .45 Auto. The LM4 weighs in at just 24 oz., and is only 5.2 x 3.7 inches in size with a thickness of 1 inch. The LM4 will be produced in limited quantities."
I don't think these are in current production. I first learned of them in the late '70s or early '80s. Never saw one in person. the kicker was -- you had to manually cycle the slide between shots. The slide was locked. Kind of a semi-automatically reloaded single shot derringer!
And to think -- we worry just about "sights or no sights"!!!
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Hi R9S:
Yes, I'd like to see a photo of the ankle holsters that you mention. I don't have the ability to post photos from home. Ron Graham is bugging me to send him photo's of my pink Sperry Rand boat shoes, which I will do one day.
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Hi Flyandscuba:
I like the Bersa. But it wasn't what I was thinking about. For a guy who loves pocketguns, I love the 45ACP cartridge.
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Hi Fly:
The Simmerling is available through the American Derringer Corportation as a special order firearm for a price that makes the Rohrbaugh appear downright cheap. If ADC would sell the gun for under a grand, I would buy it, if for no other reason than as a collectable, but the last time I checked, the price was so high as to cause my heart to flutter.
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Sounds to me like when/if the Rohrbaugh's get caught up, they should take the concept of the Simmerling and improve upon it...
Making a pocket-sized .45 (even if it only had a 4 + 1 capacity) for like you say -- under $1000, might be very marketable.
I'd buy one...
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Hopefully Rohrbaugh never gets caught up. I think it is the dream of every gunmaker to have a multi-year backlog like Seecamp.
My guess would be that Rohrbaugh, in the short run, will try to exploit their current platform. A 380 version for the overseas market, maybe a 22 trainer, maybe an all steel trainer. Bottom line--it makes sense to get as much millage out of the design as possible.
Then I think they would look at new products. For example, I have always wanted someone to compete directly with Seecamp. NAA has come close. But the Seecamp 380 has opened up a new avenue. Seecamp makes their pistol from an investment cast frame. But the 380 cartridge is taxing that design. Maybe, Rohrbaugh can complete by making their own CZ design clone from a forged steel billet. It would allow Rohrbaugh to use their own established technology (machining from forged billets). Seecamp still would be lighter (by about an oz), but the forged version would last longer and have the same footprint. If Rohrbaugh wants to make a slightly larger version, by beefing up the slide, they could have an advantage by being able to have Gutter Snipe or traditional sights, which is a limitation on the Seecamp. Or offer a two slide version--one without sights like the Seecamp and one with sights (the trade off would be weight).
But the R9s, would still be lighter. However, there is a large market for small pocketguns, but a limited number of makers around.
Look at the 1911A1 design. Tons of companies make use the same design and make money from it. By refining a existing design Rohrbaugh can bring a second product to market with limited R&D and start-up expense.
The internal finishing of a Rohrbaugh is unquestionably superior to that of Seecamp. Seecamps are perfect from the outside, but with Rohrbaugh's attention to detail, they could deliver a superior product at a lower cost than Seecamp.
I love competition. The winner is always the consumer--me and you.
But the thought of a vest pocket 45 ACP, even if a single shot 4+1 design does perk up my interest.
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But the thought of a vest pocket 45 ACP, even if a single shot 4+1 design does perk up my interest.
I'll add my interest too ... if it could be done.
George ... only just noticed your mention re ankle rigs .. I'll get to taking a pic today if i can and then post.
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George - those ankle rigs ....... quick pics ... beat up ol' sandals .. some wierd ol' socks I found! ... and ol' legs still not very tanned. But I tell ya - this is shorts weather right now - thus what you see :)
Here we go - first the Ankle Pocket ..... this is a very comfortable rig if a bit bulky. It is also likely to make the leg a bit warm other than in winter .. well it does me. So - this one is useful for when cooler ... and with good large pants .. Dockers etc. It is actually is sized for my Bersa Thunder .. and could well be made smaller for the R9 ... and that would reduce bulk a bit.
(http://www.bedford.net/design/shoot3/ank-pocket-s.jpg)
Then we have the ProTech ''Outdoors'' . very nice rig .. better for warmer conditions. This one is for P3-AT and so is ideal for R9. I like this one a lot. I do find that in use - I keep an ankle rig round slightly to front ...... this helps obviate the tendency for gun grips to project to inner side and rear, enough to show underneath pants. The slight rotation helps the gun find the more natural space in front. In fact I'd rotate even more than in this pic.
(http://www.bedford.net/design/shoot3/protech-s.jpg)
Hope these show enough to help. .. hmmm ... had to check links again ....
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R9SCarry:
I enjoy your posts and have learned a lot from your range reports and comments. That said, I will follow your pistol recommendations but I reserve the right to reject your fashion statements regarding socks and footware :-)
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but I reserve the right to reject your fashion statements regarding socks and footware
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBBImages/laugh.gif) (http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBBImages/laugh.gif)
Murray - your right is sacrosanct! I also would say that .. at my age now I hardly know what a ''fashion statement'' is ... it's all down to ''what works'' at the time ... added to which I have learned the art (if one can call it such!) of laughing at myself before any other bugger has a chance!
I think they call it- 'thick skinned''! (http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBBImages/laugh.gif)
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R9SCarry:
You are absolutely correct. We'll both live a lot longer with such attitudes. Joking aside, I do appreciate all of the info you and a some others can be counted on to provide.
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I do appreciate all of the info you and a some others can be counted on to provide.
...... that Sir is a kind comment and thank you. You are most welcome. :)
Much of this board/forum deal is sharing - of opinion and experience. It is a feedback system in many ways .. and my feeling is simply .. if I have a thought or experience, it just might be of interest to others .... same way as I have profitted from contributions by others.
No board can survive and prosper without input ... sometimes that is flippant, sometimes serious - but the result is still a ''gathering round the table'' .. to exchange ideas and debate.. usually and hopefully in the end ... a beneficial experience for all participants.
I find myself spending way too much time on the boards generally but .. when I can I do and derive great pleasure from the interchange of thought.. and even sometimes a pleasant feeling of friendship and cameraderie that comes with a common interest and goal.
ENOUGH! Any who know me are aware that I ramble .. it's one of my sins.!!
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GeorgeH,
Was this the "pocket 45" you were referring to early in this thread?
(http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/H_145SSP.jpg)
Not being pleased with the POA/POI variance when I shot the Bersa Thunder 45, my understanding dealer allowed me to swap it out for the Millennium Pro PT145 today. 10+1, it's not a pocket gun -- but it is not much bigger than my KT P-357...
(http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/PT145-P40_Side.jpg)
(http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/PT145-P40_Top.jpg)
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Hi Fly,
I had never really looked at either of these guns before and I appreciate your posting the high quality pictures of them. The only .45s I have been able to pocket carry, in some very deep pockets, are my Para-Ordnance C.6.45 LDA and my Para-Ordnance P-10 Limited. I have an Alessi pocket holster that was made for a Colt Defender that works for both of them. Thank you again for posting the pictures.
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"Making a pocket-sized .45 (even if it only had a 4 + 1 capacity) for like you say -- under $1000, might be very marketable."
After seeing the quality of the R-9 I'd get in line to buy a
R-45! I don't mean to start rumors here, but I was talking to Eric in January and the subject of a Rohrbaugh .45 did come up. I got the impression that it was an early idea of the Rohrbaugh company to make a pocketable .45 in addition to the 9mm.
I asked Eric whether it would have been a .45 ACP or a .45 GAP. Eric said it would have been a .45 ACP, but they were going to let any consideration of a .45 wait until they were really well ahead of the game in producing the 9mms.
Anyway, it seems possible the distant future could hold more very interesting offerings from Rohrbaugh.
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Hi 9mil.mouse,
I shudder at the thought of firing a true pocket sized, light weight .45 acp, but then again it might not be any worse than some of the Airlight titanium S&Ws. My titanium S&W Centenial beats me up pretty good while I can shoot my stainless steel Centenial 640-1 all day without discomfort. Like you, I would get in line to buy a Rohrbaugh .45. In the mean time, I am sure that I will be very happy with my R9s when I get it.
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Hi shooterjb,
It does make me flinch to think of firing a tiny *lightweight* .45, but I can't help wondering if the key word is'nt lightweight.
If it had a stainless frame and slide and consequently had more mass than something with an aluminum or titanium frame, with Rohrbaugh quality I bet it could be a great little companion.
9mil.mouse
P.S. I suspect you're going to LOVE your R9s!
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Hi Fly:
I just got back in from a short fly fishing trip. The Taurus isn't it. I just have to do some research.
Thank's for the ankle holster photo's. I'm now rethinking ankle holsters.
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Hi Frank:
I don't know how punishing a light weight 45 would be. But I do think it would be milder that a lightweight 357 mag. I mean, one of my all time favorite calibers was the 41 mag, and I thought the felt recoil of that caliber was less than a 357 mag.
Maybe I'm just getting weird in my old age....
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GeorgeH,
This has got to be it....
The AMT Back-up .45 -- I had forgotten about that model.
(http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/AMT_Back-up_45.jpg)
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Hi Fly:
Nope. That's not it either. I'm going to do some research and find out the gun I saw.
P.S. I love the size of the AMT, but the trigger really sucked.
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I don't know if a truly pocketable .45 would be something I would really want. I suspect the recoil would be nasty enough to discourage me from wanting to shoot it.
I think something a little larger, about the size of the Kahr K9 or MK9, would be great though. I think recoil would be quite reasonable on something that size. The K9 all but disappears in a good IWB holster.
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It was a Bersa.
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I'm way late for posting in this section, but in hopes of a future 45acp from Rohrbaugh, here goes. I'd love to see a Rohrbaugh 45acp. Actually, I want a Rohrbaugh 45acp! :P
I know it would be hard to make a 45acp that is practical for pocket carry, but if anyone could, I know it would be Rohrbaugh after handling and carrying the R9s. saying that and trying to be more realistic, how about one that is more concealable than anything else ever made. (weighs more than the R9s but almost as small)
I own am AMT Back-up 45acp and yes it does have a heavy trigger pull and plenty of recoil but its the smallest D.A.O. 45acp ever made. I carried it daily for about 3years around my farm while i was working. (mowing, weed-eating, ect..) It was nice because it was small and not in the way but still had the 45acps knockdown power.
Although its reliability has been questioned alot, I fired several, several rounds through mine before the first problem. It started jamming when reloading the next round. I had the feed ramp polished and its doing fine now. I also found it to be quite accurate for its size and i'm no match shooter either.
Since they are no longer made and parts are scarce, i have retired it from daily carry. I now carry a Glock 36 around the farm but still look for something smaller. Haven't found anything small enough to justify replacing the 36 with. I did just purchase another barely used AMT.
Rohrbaugh could refine the AMT Back-up 45's characteristics alot i have no doubt! Build it and we will buy......
Gunner930
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William Blake, the English poet, said once that we can never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough. Ayoob (I think) did a recent article on real-world killing power based on autopsies of bad guys killed "on the job." His opinion is that, when using premium HP ammo in a good gun, it doesn't matter whether it's a 9mm, .40 or .45, the expansion is about equal and the killing rate about the same. ;D Now, I'm a great fan of the .45, whether acp or Colt (I have two Kimbers, two Peacemakers, and a Schofield) and love to shoot them all, and I regularly carry the Kimbers when practical to do so, but I have to ask myself this question: If I'm buying a POCKET gun, don't I want it to be as small and light as possible so I'm not constantly reminded that I'm carrying a gun in my pocket?
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Yeah, I know the AMT isn't practical for a pocket gun nor would a newer 45 its size be. I just like the idea of a 45acp that concealable and small. I often carried my AMT with an inside-the-pants holster and found it excellent for a ccw. I would just like to see something like it, more refined, alot smaller than my Glock 36 be produced.
I agree that the bigger size a caliber doesn't make it more lethal. I do think the "knockdown power" is better though. I live in a remote area that borders national forest and stay armed here mostly because of any predatory animals that may be around. I do plan on purchasing something like a 44mag or 454 for this reason. There are just times when I'm working that even my 36 on my hip is in the way.
I know a guy who doesn't believe in anything smaller than a .38 long being lethal. He doesn't trust automatic guns either. During our friendly arguments, I try and explain to him there are just times a 38 revolver is too large for a pocket or ccw although they are very reliable. ;)
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Hmmmm... second time today that I'm reminded of what I learned from www.AmmoLab.com and the time I spent watching some testing of ammo there.
Depth and diameter of wound channel is very similar for premium ammo in 9 and 45.
.357 Sig from smallest Glock was the most remarkably explosive test, by far, for the day.
+p+ hooligig banannas ammo at $5 a shot was customarily VERY good at making a shallow and terrible wound in naked geletin and did not do well at all through the customary 4 layers of denim and then into geletin.
I SAVOR my Rohrbaugh. However, take a look at the hundreds and hundreds of 9 and 45 tests on geletin... they are very, very, similar.
Unless we go to the R357s which would take a major toll on the nervous system of the shooter as well; I think Mssrs. Rohrbaugh have given us the ultimate short tube option. The .45 hole would shure look COOL in such a baby gun though! ;D
Has anyone shot the shorty .50 S&W revolver yet? Now THAT'S A GUN! And, my buddy just filled the request of his girlfriend Monday and got her a Desert Eagle .50 A.E. With IMI ammo the flame ball was about 4' diameter and 6' long! Daylight flash blindness for the shooter!!!!
Hey Eric! Have you considered a R.50.AE.s??? ;D ::) ::)
Personally, I LOVE tiny powerful things!!! Ohhh and Pistols too. ;D
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Hi Jody, thanks for the link to ammolab.com! I'll check it out. I'm just now really learning about balistics. I'm not wanting a 45 the size of an R9s. I'd just like to see a gun the size and cal. of an AMT Back-up 45 with the precision and quality of the R9s.
I have a special situation being I want stopping power that will at least give me my best (if any) chance against a bear or mountain lion at the few times I cant wear a 44mag or 454 which I will be buying soon. These are times like when I'm down in the mud on my belly fixing a water line, or working on a barb wire fence having to crawl under it, or even laying under my farm truck changing the oil. Dont really want a gun on my hip or inside the pants during these times. I know my AMTs aren't pocket guns but they easily fit in my pocket during these situations.
Do you think my R9s would stop a bear better than a 45acp might? If it would, I'd rather have the R9s in my pocket than the AMT. ;)
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OK, now along this side road... departing farther... for your EDC with a slam; how about the Glock 10mm loaded with the maximum www.DoubleTap.com ammo? It's hard to beat for weight, size, dependability, cost, and POWER.
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Somewhere I read here, I believe, "You never know what is enough, until you see more that enough"
10MM would be it !!!
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"down this side road" "departing farther" Hmmm, I believe the topic is R45? ::)..... :D
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Note: www.AmmoLab.com is no longer available.
However; David DiFabio, the Founder and Source of that site still posts informative info about ammo at www.warriortalk.com
He has recently posted that similar speed and design of bullet in these pistol calibers are effectively the same.