Frangible ammo through an R9...

[GeorgeH]

Hi Bill:

I've used Magsafe for so long that I have a high level of confidence in the bullet. But I will most likely switch over to RBCD exclusively in time.

[Shaderad]

Hi, Guys.

I asked Eric about using MagSafe or Glaser rounds in the R9, and he said he wasn't sure it was OK (I suppose because of velocities/pressures--I'm not sure).

I like both Glaser and MagSafe.  Especially since reading the "Strasbourgh Goat Tests", although I am against doing such testing.  I think they should instead use convicted rapists/Murderers  

I am unfamiliar with RBCD as a round.

My big question is: is it safe to use these rounds in the R9?  Magsafe has different types of 9mm.  Are they all ok to use?

[GeorgeH]

Both RBCD and Magsafe "Defender" cartridges are standard pressure. I don't know about Glasser.

[Oscar]

Recently, I bought a box of Non-Toxic Frangible 9mm rounds from a local company here in Western Pennsylvania.  Their name is the International Cartridge Corporation.  Their address is 2273 Route 310, Reynoldsville, PA  15851.  Their web site is:  www.internationalcartridge.com.  These have a hollow-point bullet design and sell for $25.00 for a box of fifty.  I haven't shot any of these rounds yet.  Have any of you used these?  Anyways, please comment.  

[R9SCarry]

Oscar - been to their site - I am well interested.  Over 500 ft lbs from an 8" barrel is pretty good - wonder what they'd manage thru R9.

I see you mention West PA ... but guess you are further North than me ... I am only approx 25 miles from MD line .. Bedford County.  Did you get your ammo direct from them?  I haven't yet quite placed there exact location - not looked up on map.

Be most interested to know your appraisal once you shoot some.

[MurrayNevada]

I use Glaser ammo but only in short barreled revolvers.  There is some concern regarding the ability to properly operate the system in semi-auto pistols.  At the cost of these things I could never fire enough rounds in my semi-autos to satisfy myself regarding reliability.  No such problem with revolvers.

[Oscar]

R9SCarry:
  I bought these rounds from company salesman at a gun show in Monroeville, PA.  The International Cartridge Corporation had quite a spread there with plenty of stock and information.  Reynoldsville is about twenty miles north of Punxsutawney.  I live about twenty eight miles south of Punxsy in a little town called Home.
  Dimensionally, these bullets are very close to the GDHP's.  Overall length of the GDHP's is 1.120" vs 1/125" for the ICC rounds.  The beginning of the final radius into the hollow point of the GDHP's measure about .120" in width vs. .110" for the ICC rounds.  
  I'll try these out soon and let yun'z know how they performed.

[GeorgeH]

Hi Oscar:

It seems ICC ammo was designed to be "green" range safe ammo. Lead free with no lead primers. The use of frangible ammo for range safety has been big in Europe for years, but fairly new here.

Glasser, Magsafe, and RBCD were intended not as range safe ammo, but as personal protection ammo.  

[MurrayNevada]

There is a range here in Las Vegas that now only allows frangible ammo to be used.  This range has now become useless, in my opinion, because carry ammo can no longer be tested there. Luckily there are other ranges available.  I hope this doesn't become a trend.

[HKILP7M8]

I noticed some of you guys are saying it's ok to use the Magsafe Defender series in the R9s, however, I've noticed that on the actual bullet it shows the +p sign. Do your bullets carry this stamping or is it  just mine. I bought them some time in 96-97.

[GeorgeH]

Magsafe uses commerical brass. The "P+" on the brass, doesn't mean the Magsafe loading is "P+."

There are P+ loadings. But the "Defender" series was designed to be alloy gun safe.

[Jeff_OTMG]

Hey guys, I have been using RBCD since late 1999 and as of 2002 I am a manufacturers rep for RBCD ammo in In, Ok, Ks, Az, Nv, and Ut.  I am responsible for setting up dealers in those states and can only sell in those states.  I am slowly bringing in dealers, the next will be in Ogden, Ut and then one in the Phoenix area.  That was a disclaimer, not an advertisement.  

I have a flyer with some links that I am posting here, so you can do some further research on your own if you are interested.

--------------------------------------------------------
Articles done on the Blackwater Shootout over the years in Armed Forces Journal International.  Each year the articles get better:
(In the 2001 article you must use the ‘continue’ at the bottom of each page.  The page numbers at the top are NOT correct.)
2001:  http://www.afji.com/AFJI/Mags/2001/August/MeteorRound.htm
2002:  http://www.afji.com/AFJI/Mags/2002/August/shootout.html
2003:  http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/2003/
2004:  http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/cmark1.html
2004:  http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/analysis1.html

These links have downloadable videos, also known as watch the meat explode:
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/2003/videos.html
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/videos.html


RBCD ammo in the real world:

Private contractor (former SEAL) using RBCD in Iraq
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2426405.php

World record sniper shot by Canadian sniper in support of the U.S. 101st Airborne during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1026271952413_269
(This has recently come into question from a reliable source.  Unfortunately nobody has been able to explain what alternate cartridge was used in a weight under 650-750 gr range used by most .50 BMG ammo manufacturers that are driven to higher velocity to explain the 'farther, faster' comment from the sniper.)

Special ammunition for Israel:
http://www.gordonthomas.ie/113.html

A blog with info on actual use.  (We call it the 'Q' round)
terrasol.home.igc.org/mideast/carla-palestine.htm
An excerpt:
...it was time to retreat, as the use of silent bullets meant serious...

Independent test against other 9mm ammo in an attempt to determine which is best:
(RBCD is the second on the list and include a photo of the dispersion)
(be sure to click on ‘9mm Chronograph Tests’ at the bottom and view the spreadsheet)
http://www.geocities.com/goldenloki2/9mm/gel9.html

Another meaningless independent test.  Only comment here is that NOBODY else makes a bullet like ours.
http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/29-1643.asp

[R9SCarry]

Hey Jeff - first time I've seen you over here (P95 here from THR!!) ... some useful info - I'm off to go explore.  Welcome here!

[R9SCarry]

Jeff - those links to vid's ... I get error message box -  "rtsp is not a registered protocol".  I notice the download option for streaming vid is Real Player - already have that.  I see all files are ''rm'' .. so need RealPlayer, that's fine but as I say - got it!.  Can't work out this error message tho - any ideas?  Looks like some interesting vid footage to be seen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I now realize - this rtsp deal ... refers to rtsp:// as a start to a URL!  What?  No http?  Is this only available thru some other means?  help!?

[Jeff_OTMG]

I like this forum.  I have been here awhile, just don't post much since you seem to have everything under control.  I don't get around to the boards much, too many friends died last year and it is kind of depressing.  VERY busy lately, just got back from SHOT (I did an interesting report on Rohrbaugh and the guns did start shipping last week), Salt Lake City the weekend before, Tulsa and Dallas this coming weekend, and Phoenix in a couple of weeks.  I still have a bunch of material to publish on the SHOT Show as well.

The videos are great, I hope that they get them fixed.  Unfortunately they are on the AFJI website and I have nothing to do with them.