The Rohrbaugh Forum

Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: Aglifter on October 23, 2005, 09:07:59 PM

Title: Softpoints?
Post by: Aglifter on October 23, 2005, 09:07:59 PM
I used some 357 mag. soft points when target shooting.  Any thoughts on using them for self-defense purposes?  I noticed they seemed to expand and retain their weight well, at least when they hit the soft dirt behind my target.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on October 24, 2005, 01:12:01 AM
Brad - I think they are almost as viable as true HP's.  One thing HP's suffer is IMO ''plugging up'' - meaning the potential for the ''cookie-cutter'' effect with thick clothing.

I think the SP's could well do even better, once they are thru cloth - then being probably still able to deform.

I have used SP's with 44 mag and been quite inpressed with deformation.  Arguably tho - no actual hydraulic expansion is likely - just pure upset.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Brenden on October 24, 2005, 08:25:36 PM
I have always thought that the "better medicine" for winter in my parts is a solid projectile..

We tend to bulk up on the clothing in the winter and I know that HPs tend to slow in "feathers and such".. ;)

I still would not want to be the target of either of these types-no matter what I was wearing.. :o

Brenden
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Rocnerd on November 01, 2005, 09:39:28 AM
Has anyone tried the Federal EFMJ?  They look like a full metal jacketed bullet but have a soft rubber core in the tip and scored? or cuts? in the bullet from inside out to promote expansion.  From what I have read they have reliable expansion and could be something to look at if considering soft points.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 01, 2005, 05:06:05 PM
I like the deign idea on those - marginal similarity to Powrball principle.  I have yet to get any and do any testing but sometime later on must try and evaluate.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: EdMan on November 06, 2005, 11:43:15 PM
Rocnerd,
Yes I’ve tried the Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacketed) ammo in .45ACP, .40S&W and 9mm. It tends to expand on hard targets which may cause under penetration. Even in wet phone books it expands pretty quickly, therefore it doesn’t penetrate as well as the hollow points I tested it with, like Speer GDHP or Federal HydraShok. The .40s and .45s will expand to about .60 caliber, so if you want quick extreme expansion these rounds my be for you. Or if your area doesn’t allow hollow points then this may be a good choice. I think I would alternate it with better penetrating rounds though.  

Ed
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 25, 2005, 04:02:29 AM
I am looking for suggestions for my R9S which arrives tomorrow.  I know about Speer Gold Dots, Magsafe, and Federal Hydra-Shok.  How about ammo from Hornady, CorBon, and Double Tap?  Anyone try these or are they too hot though not marked +P or similar?
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Erich on November 25, 2005, 11:26:37 AM
Lots of ammo suggestions on the Rohrbaugh pistols board. Run a search for them. Karl Rohrbaugh personally recommended Win STHPs to me, but a lot of other folks use other things.

I was under the impression that DT and Cor-Bon 9mms ran in the +P range, and that such were not to be used in the Rohrbaughs. I would suggest that only a fool would try to run overpowered ammo through his almost-$1k pistol - caution would seem to be the watchword of the day.  ;)
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 25, 2005, 11:57:46 AM
That is exactly why I am asking people who have used this pistol for some time.  I was unsure about the nature of these two, CorBon and DT.  I appreciate your guidance.  I do not know how to run a search.  I tried last night but could not get the info I wanted.  I must have run the search incorrectly.  Thanks again, Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 25, 2005, 03:37:10 PM
Gary - I doubt I have said welcome yet :)

Main thing with a search is choice of keyword or words.

In fact, if you browsae theu the index page on the R9 sub forum - I daresay you'll turn up some ammo info but yeah - avoid any rounds that are hot - tho they should in fact have +P on the case headstamp.

I personally favor the Gold Dots but main thing is that an individual's gun runs good with their choice.

I did some testing on various brands a ways back - go peek at my FAQ site (link in my sig) - and you'll find some links to test data - which included some basic appraisal of expansion.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 25, 2005, 03:58:01 PM
Thanks for the info.  I did find your info but that was about all.  Groups  seemed quite a bit to the left but these pistols will not be used for target practice but for "up close and personal" shooting.  I guess any non +P loading with a good bullet (penetrates and expands) is good for this pistol.  Thanks again and for the welcome as well.  Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 25, 2005, 05:32:46 PM
Gotta add something here - and maybe I should add same to FAQ comments - when my son shot this gun for first time a week ago - he shot way more to center than I usually do - so my low left is I think a function of me - plus I have since thought - also maybe due to shooting from a sandbag rested.

If I shoot standing freestyle I shoot more centrally.  I think this can vary person to person and many find it goes very close to or on POA.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 25, 2005, 09:50:06 PM
Thanks for letting me know that.  I picked up my R9S and it is beautiful!  What a piece of work!  I am glad some gun makers still take pride in quality craftsmanship.  I have only seen this quality of work on pistols by Freedom Arms.  The trigger pull is even excellent.  It looks and feels like a $1K pistol despite the size.  I purchased about $160 in various 9mm ammunitions so I NEED to get to the range.  I will test them all for function andhopefull I can take some pictures to share.  Then I will have to know how to upload pictures.  I did not get a chance to look for the tape as I spent too much time at the gun shop, if that is possible.  I will bet back with the results of my tests, hopefully next week.  Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: MountainMan on November 25, 2005, 10:25:00 PM
Nice going Gary - let us know how it goes.  I have only gotten Winchester Silver Tips and Gold Dots.
Welcome!
Dave
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: tracker on November 25, 2005, 10:38:40 PM
Go, Garish Gary!
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Erich on November 25, 2005, 10:39:24 PM
Hi Gary,

A buddy of mine posted some chrono results over on the S&W Forum with the DT loads this week. Thought you might like to see them:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=884106832&f=695107034&m=889102678&r=623101388#623101388

He ran them through a PM9 (which has a very similar barrel length to the R9s, though the Kahr's is polygonally rifled and therefore should pick up some velocity), among other guns.

It appears that the Double Taps are somewhat too hot for the Rohrbaughs!  :o
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 25, 2005, 11:35:52 PM
Gary - good news - try tho not to ''push'' the pup thru too much ammo in one sitting - without doing a strip and clean and relube.

It is indeed for most - only when you see the pup close up you see the fine engineering there is.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 26, 2005, 12:10:33 AM
My thanks to all who have responded.  I will let you know the results of my tests.  I will learn the cleaning proceedure tomorrow and practice disassembly and assembly.  I will take the cleaning equipment to the range with me and clean regularly.  As I do not know how much time it takes to strip, clean, and reassemble, I do not know if I will clean between each type of ammo.  I usually like to do this, then fire 2-3 clearing rounds, then shoot groups, then clean and on to the next type.  However, some pistols ust take too long to clean to do it that frequently.  I shall see and let you know.  Thanks again,  Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 26, 2005, 12:22:43 AM
Your only real challenge initially Gary is the pin.

I don't know how much you have read but we have had numerous threads on take down.  Make sure you have a suitable punch and small hammer - a suitable soft base on which to rest gun when driving pin out and - something like a chopstick to hold slide back at required point.

Reassembly is harder but something that practice makes easier.  Do not be dismayed if first attempt ot two seem grim!!! :P  I promise - it gets easier.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 26, 2005, 10:57:26 AM
I have not even read the directions as of yet.  I will search for assembly and disassembly on this forum.  I appreciate your providing this information as I would not have automatically taken these things to the range.  However, I would have practiced before going - I have learned the hard way!

I hope to go to the range tomorrow.  Today is scheduled pretty much (home projects) but I will read up and practice the take down and assembly procedures several times.  Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 27, 2005, 08:03:27 PM
Well, good news and more good news.  The R9S is one of the few pistols I have purchased over the years which I came away from my first range practice feeling even better about the purchase than when I wanted it (no buyer's remorse here!).

I practiced the disassembly-assembly 5 times and had it down, for now at least.  The pin was not hard to push out using hand pressure, no hammer needed.  The recoil spring assembly was difficult to get lined up until I tried leaving the barrel out, pushing the end of the assembly through the hole, compressing the spring, and then sliding the barrel into position.  Only have one small blood blister!  I did decide not to strip and clean at the range as the parts seemed to fly away all too often and I did not want to loose them in the dirt.

My subjective evaluation of the recoil was that it was not bad at all.  I do fire the 454 Casull in the Freedom Arms pistol and that is painful!!  I also fire a 500 S&W and it seems distinct but far from painful.  The only 44 and 357 magnums which seem to have much recoil are the S&W scandium/titianium ones.  The R9 was a dream, not near what I thought it would be.

The pistol does twist in my hand.  It needs some form of abrasive something on the front strap especially.

i fired 68 rounds total.  It failed to feed a total of 5 times, 3 of which occurred within the first 10 rounds.  The other two I think were a result of not tapping the magazine to seat the cartridges back in the magazine.  Also, I was not being careful about hitting the nose of the bullet on the bottom side of the magwell when insterting the mag.  I corrected these two things and no more malfunctions of any kind.

I fired the following loads (why, because that was all that was available in standard loadings, not +P or +P+, at the sporting goods stores near me):

Winchester Silvertips 115 gr.  = 1 3/16"
                              147 gr.  = 1 7/16"

Winchester Supreme 147 gr. SXT  = 1 1/16"

Speer Gold Dots in 115 gr.  = 2 7/16"
                          124 gr.  = 1 10/16"
                          147 gr.  = 2 10/16"

Federal Classic Hydro-Shock 115 gr.  = 3"             1 key hole
                                       147 gr.  = 1 10/16"     5 keyholes

Federal Premium Hydro-Shockl 124 gr.  = 1 9/16"
                                           135 gr.  = 2 3/16"
                                           147 gr.  = 2"          2 key holes

I fired with a supported left arm at a target 15' away (but not on a rest as I wanted to measure center of impact vs. center of hold w/o a rest changing the center of impact), 6 shot groups, and measured the best 5 to account for my lack of control (I had several called flyers so went with best 5 in all cases).

Center of impact was high and left of center of hold on all groups except the Winchester Silvertip 115 gr. and the Winchester Supreme SXT 147 gr. which were both at the same point.

Conclusions:
1. The R9 is a GREAT pistol of its type!
2. For me the recoil is over rated but I am accustomed to shooting large bore magnums.
3. Again, for me the difficulty in disassembly-assembly is also over rated but I have been taking pistols apart for 40 years.
3. This pistol does need checkering, abrasive tape, or stippling at least on the front strap if not on both the front and rear straps.
4. The best ammo in my pistol for both group size and center of impact were Winchester Silvertip 115 gr. and Winchester Supreme SXT 147 gr.  Head and shoulders above the rest.  Was this pistol designed using these loadings?
5. I have no reservations about highly recommending this pistol.

My hat is off to the Brothers Rohrbaugh for designing and producing a very fine pistol!!

Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 27, 2005, 08:18:37 PM
Gary - thx for the report and I am most pleased it went well. :)

I also shoot 454 and big stuff so like you do not find the R9 intimidating or viscious but I would still stand by my description of ''aggressive'' or maybe not overly comfortable.  Manageable tho - yes for sure.  What else would we expect from a diminutive 9mm!

I was lucky today and got some grip tape from a large WalMart - and will be adding a front and rear strip to my carry R9 - I do agree, that slight increase in hold will make all the difference.  With a grip that small - I reckon it would help anyone - more so maybe those of us with large hands.

Well - ''first blood" - welcome to the club :)
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 27, 2005, 08:37:21 PM
Thanks Chris,

It did go very well.  I will go to WalMart here and see if they have the tape.  I think that will be my first step.  If this works then I will consider other, more attractive ways.  However, if I can get the tape to look good I will stick with it (no pun intended ;).  If I were to get the grip stippled or checkered then there would be refinishing as well.  I think the cost will make this unwise, at least at this time.  I agree with the term "aggressive" but far from uncontrolable much less painful.  Have you found any grips that will help tame the Freedom Arms 454 Casull?  I have tried many grip manufacurers and none make a grip which would keep the trigger guard from brusing the bone in my middle finger.

Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 27, 2005, 09:11:10 PM
Gary - re the grip tape - the stuff I got was actually 2" - bigger than I need and so will cut out the shapes I want - plus probably way more length on roll than needed.  One of the other guys (Bill, Dave?) mentioned Ace Hardware and that was a 1" I think by 3M.  Mine is sporting the Ducktape label.

My .454 platforms are not Freedom Arms - I have the Raging Bull and long barrel SRH - I like the latter more overall but must say the grip on the Taurus is a bit more comfortable.  IIRC the trigger guard on your FA is a bit ''Blackhawk'' in shape?

No idea what grip to suggest but have you explored Hogue and Pachmayr offerings".  I think trigger guards on cannons are most common cause of pain!  These are my two Casull beasts!



(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/cb_gun2/rage_bull_02_s.jpg)



(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/cb_gun2/srh_454_02_s.jpg)


And this is the "Raging Lunatic" - when all ''lit up'' :D  Been posted a few times, so old hat to many.


(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/shoot/jb_shoot/454_flash.jpg)
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 27, 2005, 10:20:30 PM
Yes, it is similar to the Blackhawk but not enough that a grip could be modified.  I have tried Hogue but not Pachmayr.  I will look on their site.  The Freedom Arms is a piece of fine work, just the bite is bad.  It is very accurate.  When I had my original one I tore up several "magnum proof" scopes.  All were replaced several times and I finally quit.  I am sure they make stronger scopes now.  However, I still need a pair of great grips.

Nice pictures.  How do you upload pictures into your responses?

Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 28, 2005, 12:17:56 AM
First off - just realized I am guilty (again) of some thread drift - sorry folks :)

Gary - you will need to have pics hosted somewhere - photobucket, imageshack or something like that.  I have two servers so can host my own stuff easily.

The pic url's are then enclosed with in ''img'' tags (what you get when you click on the wee lil' picture icon above reply message box).

Re scopes etc - knock on wood, Raging Bull scope still functional and also the Millet Red Dots on SRH but - danged if i know how they survive the immense shock ;D
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 28, 2005, 12:49:16 AM
Sorry Chris, you lost me about the pics but that is easy these days.

I was surprised, but I do not know why as this seems to always happeen with each firearm, that the R9 likes certain ammo.  I still wonder if the Bros Rohr' built the pistol for Winchester ammo.

Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 28, 2005, 01:28:44 AM
Worry not Gary - if you want to post pics badly let me know - maybe even a chat on phone will help you out.  Just shout.

Well - for most of the time the Gold Dots have been favorite tho Karl does IIRC seem to mention Silver Tips for his preference.

In fact I doubt it really matters other than an individual's gun digesting any particular type reliably.

If you have looked at my FAQ (link in sig) - I tested quite a bit of ammo and IMO the GD's were best for uniform expansion and - for me - best in gun.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 28, 2005, 05:36:26 AM
I have saved the groups and can easily take digital pics.  IF you think seeing the groups would help anyone than I will talk with you on the phone to learn how to upload them.  If not, then for now I do not need send photos of anything else.

What does IIRC and IMO mean?  Sorry, I am new.

Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Richard S on November 28, 2005, 08:00:31 AM
Gary:

If I haven't welcomed you to the Forum, I do so now, and thank you for your informative range report.

IIRC = "if I recall correctly."
IMO = "in my opinion."

Subject to correction, I think these and other abbreviations got their real start as a form of shorthand for text messaging.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: R9SCarry on November 28, 2005, 11:00:05 AM
Haha - sorry Gary - I like many use the ''shorthand'' a lot - laziness!!  Richard is right on those two - then we have others of course - BTW (by the way), POV (point of view), OTOH (on the other hand), YMMV (your mileage may vary), AFAIK (as far as I know).  There are many but these are common ones.

I doubt group pics overly important to post but sure - later on sometime if others then a brief phone chat might help.  I'll drop you a PM.
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 28, 2005, 01:10:05 PM
Thanks for the interpretations.  I figured these were from test messages like CB radio used t be and I being a Ham used similar thigs when sending morse code.  I just do not understand unless I ask and I have never been afraid to ask.  The only dumb question is the one you don't ask - at least that is what they say.

I think the descriptive results would have got me to thinking anyway.  At least some ideas as to what to try in this special pistol.

Anyone have a GI 50?

Gary...
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Richard S on November 28, 2005, 08:08:36 PM
Gary:

I don't have a GI .50, but I have an IMI/MR .50.  I posted this photo once before, but here it is again - "David and Goliath":

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/RichardS/imimrdeserteagle.jpg)

The .50 is a real "blast" to shoot!   ;D
Title: Re: Softpoints?
Post by: Garish on November 28, 2005, 08:38:54 PM
I agree, the Desert Eagle is fun to shoot and very accurate.  Though I doubt I will use it for personal defense, more for handgun hunting.  It is a quality piece of work.  I have the same model but with brushed chrome.  I am having a hunting holster built for it.  I also put adjustable sights and a Trijicon heads up display sight which needs no battery (I cannot hunt with electronic schopes here in Oregon).  This one uses a daylight collector during the day and tritium at night or low light conditions.

This pistol has nowhere the quality of craftsmanship as the R9 but it works well.  It is difficult to get an ankle holster for!

Gary...