The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: pelahale on March 30, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
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Was hoping for Advice/input about a bad situation.
A family member lives out in the countryside -
He was walking through some woods late in the day on his land with his 11 year-old daughter when he spotted a small pack of dogs (3) off in the distance down the trail, maybe over a football field away. He slowly tried to turn away to go back home, but the dogs sniffed him out and started barking aggressively and chasing him up the trail. He thought about running but he was worried for his daughter and frankly about rabies also which has been fairly common in his county in recent years. As he stood his ground, the dogs started getting closer - they were a couple of pitbull mixes and a Chow mix dog, fairly large and menacing dogs. He took out his Sig 228 and fired a warning shot into the ground between him and the dogs, now about 50 yards away. The dogs briefly halted, then started racing full speed at him and his daughter. Without thinking twice he emptied the magazine into the 3 dogs, hitting each one at least once before they got to him. He was able to drop 2 of them dead and maimed the third enough that it was spinning wildly and making a lot of noise along the trail. As the third dog lay dying, he realized his daughter had been screaming the whole time.
Very shaken up by the whole incident he rushed his daughter home and thought about what to do. He wondered if his neighbors (maybe about 6 families spread out maybe hundreds of acres all around him) heard the screaming and the gunshots and called 911. His wife came home after dark and he told her what happened and it frightened her very much also but she was about to call the police when he stopped her. He was worried that his concealed carry license would be taken away at least during the investigation, and possibly for good. They live out in the rural parts of the county, the area with the highest rate of drug crimes (mostly crank) in the state. Without guns, he and his family are sitting ducks for many antisocial elements living all around him.
In the early morning in the dark after a sleepless night, he went back with a flashlight & a shovel to the trails where the dogs' corpses lay and he dugout and buried all 3 dogs. He says none of the dogs had collars, but this is fairly common for even house dogs in that area. He also managed to find 11 of the 13 brass casings he had fired earlier.
This was about a week ago. After trouble sleeping for several days, he asks me whether he should go ahead and notify the authorities as to what happened to him (and possibly lose his concealed carry permit for good?), or whether he should just keep this quiet. Being a devout Christian, he's probably going to end up turning himself in and surrendering his CCW license. I worry about what the legalities of this situation is. Any advice or ideas on the laws surrounding a likely self-defense episode against a pack of dogs? The 1 week wait before reporting it probably looks bad also I assume? Does he stand a chance of retaining his CCW license?
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I don't know what state that you are in and I am not a lawyer. It appears to me that he was on his own land and and he can pretty much do what he wants, as long as he doesn't cause problems for the neighbors. At least that is the way it is where I live and this act would be considered riding the property of wild life nuisances.
Does your state not allow for open carry on your own property or for target practice, for that matter?
My advice, in this case, would be to "let the dead dogs lie".
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The first question is, did he do anything illegal? Subject to local laws, proximity of buildings, etc., probably not. It may have been wise to have called 911 initially because he clearly was in fear of his and his daughter's life and would be deemed to have been justified in shooting the dogs. There are more than a few attorneys on this forum who might advise otherwise but I would rather run the risk of a few more sleepless nights than to open that can of worms. It was probably a pack of wild dogs, anyway. This is just an opinion, of course.
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Why would he lose his CCW for defending himself against dogs on his own property? If it's already been a week, it seems he shouldn't have any problems at this point. I'd just be glad I was able to defend myself and daughter and move on.
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I think after waiting a week and burying the dogs he should leave it alone. Seek some religious or psychological counseling for himself and his daughter.
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I do agree with leaving the situation alone; and counseling, as John says, would be a plus.
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You never know, as soon as you say something one of the neighbors dogs will have been reported missing and according to them he was the sweetest most loving pet in the world. Now you have to deal with the Humane Society and the Animal Rights People will be picketing outside his house calling him a murderer.
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You never know, as soon as you say something one of the neighbors dogs will have been reported missing and according to them he was the sweetest most loving pet in the world. Now you have to deal with the Humane Society and the Animal Rights People will be picketing outside his house calling him a murderer.
So what?
The dogs were not leased.
The dogs were in a pack.
The dogs were in Attack mode.
The dogs were on HIS land.
NO Brainer.
I lost a beloved companion/family pet to a pack of dogs.
She went on someone else's land. I knew there was nothing I could do about it.
Except wait for members of the pack to step off their property.
And one of them did.
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That is horrible, especially for his daughter, I agree with Ken and several others, leave it alone and immediate professional counseling for his daughter just to determine the damage and then proceed as CCW and the counselor feels necessary. I am truly sorry to hear something like this, truly horrible. I cannot imagine how terrified the little girl was.
Sorry CCW, I will add you and your daughter to my prayers tonight.
Phil
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After appropriate correction was received my prayers this evening will be re-directed to the family member and his daughter. I was worried about CCW for a bit there.
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I would be more concerned with his daughters emotional state. She just saw her dad burn down three dogs with a very loud gun and probably the first time she witnessed death first hand of an animal. I'm sure with lots of talking with his child she will be fine. As for the dogs, I'm with the posters that say let it go. He was on his own land and for that matter protecting his daughters life. No brainer IMO. I'm just happy he actually had the Sig in his pocket or this may have been a totally different story.
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Appreciate all the input. I think I might let him read of your comments here for his peace of mind. He is very shaken up by all this. I suggested he talk this over with his preacher. I think in my state (NC) there is clergy-client confidentiality, but not psychologist-client confidentiality. I also think leaving this alone sounds like wise advice at this point. He's just freaking out that someone might report something and the detectives might start snooping around, then convict him. He definitely feels like he's a murderer and that he has sinned etc. I think him seeing several people including me agree that he did the only thing possible will give him some relief.
THe only technical point is if he did call 911 or at least call the police immediately after this incident, he'd probably be in the clear? Or would they have confiscated his weapon & cancelled his CCW license? Should he have called/obtained a lawyer first? I don't know about this.
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Dogs? What dogs?
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Two things he HAS to get over, regardless of religious conviction:
1 - Dogs are NOT humans!
Even though Disney, Hollywood and PETA have implanted otherwise.
2- Legally - he did what any normal and reasonalble man would do. (sans the coverup)
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Time will heal the wounds. It is important to talk, console, stay private, and not overreact.
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I think your friend did everything right. I wouldn't say a word. The dogs are buried, not to be insensitive but they are dogs, he is not covering up a murder. I wouldn't report anything. I think this is probably a fairly common thing here in the rural parts of Texas. Your friend was just taking care of business and I wouldn't give it a second thought if I were him.
His daughter has also been able to learn a few good lessons out of this...number one, she can always count on daddy to keep her safe, and guns make alot of noise and can do damage so don't play with them.
Something else to consider is your friend may have prevented those dogs from hurting someone else or someone's beloved pet in the future, and the rabies thing is a very valid point.
Those are my thoughts
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I have to agree with you all.
He defended himself and daughter against 3 wild dogs.
He did what most of us here would have done!
Put it to sleep. No good can come to go any further.
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Everyone has a right to their opinion. :)
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Yes they do! ;D
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Horrible incident. But isn't that what guns are for? Self defense! Imagine if he didn't have a gun. Might be a good time to teach his daughter why it is important to carry a weapon and how horrible the results can be even when the weapon is used in self defense. Guns aren't toys. Used properly they can save lives but in doing so there is always a consequence. Its always sad when something dies but the salient concept here is self preservation.
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In addition to a firearm I carry with me at all times a high potency pepper spray canister. It was designed to use against humans and is much more powerful than needed to deal with dogs (and a bigger problem near my home, coyotes).
There are times when you can feel endangered but the situation has not yet reached the level that would allow you to draw your firearm, and seems beyond your capabilities as a fighter. In those situations the pepper spray is ideal (provided it is legal in your state).
Avoid the key chain versions (they spray only about 6 feet); get the mid-sized ones (about 1" in diameter x 5"). The mid-sized ones spray about 12 feet.
I also recommend that you purchase one or two "inert" versions for practice aiming. They cost almost as much as the real one but they don't smell.
At this point you have no option but to keep quiet. By waiting this long you probably are in violation of some ordinance. The police will (properly) question the delay.
The bigger issue is the welfare of the child who may need counselling.
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As a lawyer, there is only one thing to do. Call your lawyer and then follow his or her instructions. The laws of each state and or various counties differ. What is OK in one may well be improper in another [anyone from Cali can confirm that!]. I for one would not lose much sleep over defending one's self and child from a wild animal attack.
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My advice...
1. Make sure the daughter understands why he took the action that he did and assure her that he would never harm an animal unless he was protecting her.
2. Open up a brewski, kick back and relax... and thank God he had a Sig Sauer with a full magazine.
3. Go to the range and try to figure out why he didn't put down that third dog in the initial volley.
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Great advice; I am curious to know what has evolved on this but didn't want to ask because it is best left alone except for the daughter's psychological and emotional well being.
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My advice...
3. Go to the range and try to figure out why he didn't put down that third dog in the initial volley.
Your first two assessments sound good, but I beg to differ with you on this third one.
First of all he had ten or more things going through his mind at the time, not to mention the adrenaline factor.
Adrenaline affects us all differently.
I've been fortunate in the outcomes in my experiences and it seems that this man came out very well, especially shooting at moving targets!
Range time won't prove a thing.
Whether that "third" dog was actually shot first, second, or last doesn't matter.
Maybe he was concentrating on the target and not sights. Not uncommon in a life-threatening situation.
Maybe the excitement /adrenaline caused trigger jerk, or not a proper hold, again not uncommon for the circumstance.
No, my hat goes off to the man for a job well done.
He and his daughter made it home unharmed.
I just hope and pray the child is not emotionally scarred for life over this.
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You're right about the reason to go to the range but going to the range isn't a bad idea. When some of my good friends didn't return to the Maru, the Navy always sent us back to flying soon after--life goes on.
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I agree about going to range afterwards.
I just don't agree with the reasoning stated.
Something about an acted upon altercation always gave me incentive for range time.
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Nothing to add apart from an observation: I think the sensitivity and concern expressed in this string is something for which we can collectively take pride.
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Great observation.
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As a retired State Trooper, I have to agree with the assessments made by Park245. When he focused on the front sight the only thing that should be going through his mind is squeeze and then shoot move shoot move till they're all down. What he probably needs practice in is transitioning from target to target while shooting. That's a hard technique to learn because most people shoot before they have stopped moving causing a miss or they start to move before their shot follow through is complete.
I think if his daughter was doing a Fay Wray impression from King Kong then maybe he needs to do some more advanced education because she should have known they were in trouble with the dogs and that good old Dad would take care of it. Also in no situation is hollering and screaming very effective behavior regardless of age. I know she was afraid but even at an early age she should be taught to deal with it. Good Christian moral person or not, the next thing is to make sure the daughter or wife never mention it to anyone. Kick back and relax. He cleaned up the scene, policed his brass and if possible go back and make sure he thought of everthing and brush the ground so it doesn't look like a dog graveyard. I apologize if I don't seem very sensitive about things but after 27 years as a Trooper I'm a little jaded.
I'm a dog owner and my dog is my therapist/best buddy as well as being very big and intimidating, loud and scary. But she never has harmed anyone or anything. She is always at my side and when away from our residence is always on a leash because we have a leash law and I don't want her to dart across the street when she sees a squirrel. Only at the local dog park does she go leash free and then she won't get very far away from me. I think sometimes people over react to animals but in this case I don't think so. I also don't think he shouldn't invite scrutiny by those who might be looking for an axe to grind or an issue that they can use to help at election time. No people were involved, his life and that of his daughter were jeopardized and he did the right thing. He doesn't need anyones official stamp of approval. If someone comes along asking questions later, just keep his mouth shut and refuse to answer any questions and it will slowly disappear. No harm no foul. Call it good but don't call 911.
You don't know what you'll get in response. It could be a new rookie or an old fogey like me. If it's a rookie he may have to call a supervisor for a decision or he may be looking to make a name for himself. Almost all those scenarios are bad. Let it go.
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At this time,
In this situation--
S to the 3rd
Shoot
Shovel
Shut-up
Not to be flippant ,
but it's a done deal,
nothing to be gained by digging up the past,
in this case--literally
I might not have done the Shovel asect--
But-- it's done now
Leave it --Done
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He shot some wild dogs on his own land - its a normal part of properly husbanding his land, animals, the local environment, and his family.
Admittedly, I grew up in rural TX, but I don't see any reason to contact the police - nor do I see why he thinks what he did was wrong.
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He shot some wild dogs on his own land - its a normal part of properly husbanding his land, animals, the local environment, and his family.
Admittedly, I grew up in rural TX, but I don't see any reason to contact the police - nor do I see why he thinks what he did was wrong.
While I agree in principal with what you say...I understand that all of us approach things somewhat differently. This situation is similar in some respects to what happens to a small percentage of those that Uncle Sam trains and sends off to foreign countries to wage war. Young people who have been taught all their life that to take a life is a sin in the judeo-christian ethic, and then are faced with having to do it and see the effects can be profoundly changed and a small number suffer the mental effects, hence PTSD. It has also happened to LEO's who have had to take a life and never could lift their own feelings of guilt from their shoulders. Sometimes it takes years for these things to fester and then suddenly make their appearance in weird and mysterious ways. We are not all the same in our education and experience and some of us are more sensitive than others and suffer guilt in different ways. After years on the road as a LEO and supervisor I'm pretty well hardened to the blood and gore that one sees fairly routinely. Young children always bothered me while adults never did. But I can see where animals might bother those who treat their pets as bonifide members of their family.
This poor guy did everything he should have done and he did it right. But in all the time he trained to carry and went through the process, he never worked out in his mind the necessary thoughts on how to deal with the end result of having to actually use the weapon. Most people who carry do it as an insurance policy. But like people who drive and find themselves in catastrophic automobile accidents...or people who are without warning diagnosed with life threatening deseases, they are suddenly comfronted with the problems associated with the act that they truly always thought, would never happen to them. While most of us can handle it in stride, without remorse, others are ill equipped to deal with it.
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fg, well put and very true. It's not always can you do it but can you handle it after you do it.
He clearly had no alternative for his and his Daughters well being but it's not like shooting a paper target or a tin can.
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Flints ghost that was a great post!
To the OP I would advise your friend to go get some GOOD fight training. Didn't say firearms training, obviously he did very well with his pistol hitting all 3 charging dogs to protect his daughter.
Sounds to me though, that he needs to train with some people that will prepare him not only physically but especially mentally for the realities of the fight.
IMO your friend did what he was supposed to do. HE, on the other hand considers it murder? If he feels that way after lighting up a pack of wild dogs what will he say when he has to defend his daughter against a pack of human predators. Will he be able to pull the trigger even? And if so, will his interactions with the police afterwards ensure she only sees her dad through plexiglass the rest of his life?
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I noticed 2 guests looking here.
This deserves a bump (IMO)
May ad my own story later.
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So what ever did he decide to do anyway?
Good read. Just want to know the rest of the story fellow Americans.
Did he keep quite and everything is AOK?
I have been in a pickle similar before and though I didn't have to brandish a weapon you wonder "wow if I keep my mouth shut and someone else finds me out I look like I'm trying to hide something and it results in looking worse than not being up front. And if I say something when no one is asking, I may invite criticism or worse".
It's a catch 22 and not a good place.
Here in central Indiana where we are predominantly R and gun friendly I know of my father in laws Sunday AM bible teacher that shot a dog attacking his own dog on his own land. He handily shot the very expensive critter and then was sued and LOST the suit. I do not know any more details of the story and I must admit it all sounds fishy, but that is reportedly the story of a close second hand acquaintance. Perhaps he needed better representation.
As for the Christian man feeling as if he had sinned for committing murder... I personally found that to be an interesting opinion. Most Christians that I know (I happen to know a lot of em) don't view killing an animal or human who is jeopardizing the safety of an innocent as murder.
Most of my friends understand a better translation of "thou shalt not kill" to be "thou shalt not commit murder". A big difference.
Furthermore, an animal isn't even remotely in the sphere of what is being alluded to when the bible says thou shalt not kill. All of the Jews and New Testament believers were meat eaters with very few exceptions. Furthermore remember the animal sacrifices the OT Jews made? Remember Joshua and the battle of Jericho? David and Goliath? There is a difference between killing and murder : )
Further furthermore, why would a Christian who thought it was wrong to kill something or someone to defend his most beloved and cherished thing on the earth carry a handgun and be trained so well that he passed a pretty wild test as this? Being able to shoot one dog running at me would challenge my skills, let alone 3!! Surely he must have considered the possibility of having to use the weapon he was well trained to use one of the times he was training. I propose he doesn't think it's morally wrong as much as he is wrestling with the legality of it all. And he was shaken up at the time.
I hope I could pass such a test if ever called on to defend what is precious in this old, bent and twisted world we live in. I hope even more I don't have to, but since I won't know I guess I will try to always be ready.
Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition : )
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I agree with everyone one this post. "Let sleeping dogs lie."
Focus on the impact it may/may not have on your daughter and make sure she's okay with
what happened. You have a CCW for a reason and not all threats are human.
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Great point Buffalo. Why else carry?
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Early last year, after walking home (along boarder of Detroit) I was cleaning snow (at night ) with big scoop.
A large, very aggressive dog came at me 4 times ( 2 times very close and by surprise, 3 times on my own property ). I pulled Karl Jr. (my pup, from pocket) and kept it pointed down while dancing behind the scoop.
I did not call cops!!!
The owner (100 yds. away ) may be, an a** hole like dog ( previously and since, loose and aggressive ), friend of the cops or city, cause future problems with me, my 10 lb dog or home ( especially if something later happens to this piece of **** dog )
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One must always worry / consider the possibility of "UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCES"
A couple of friends ( women ) said report it.
All others said no. One friend, a lawyer who once worked with the prominent local Lawyer of Italian American Businessmen said " You don't call the cops you call your Uncle or your Nephew" LOL!
Richard- as usual right on
on the nose dialogue short and sweet
PS How is your Wife?
Dogs? What dogs?
Josh-
Semi quote- " He handily shot the very expensive critter and then was sued and LOST the suit"
I am a Dog lover / owner but legally dogs are property.