Robby doesn't always want to eat his food! Failures to feed 1-2x each mag :-(

[Volvofan]

Okay folks, all the paperwork finally cleared and I picked up "Robby" a few days ago.  I could bring it on the LGS' indoor range, but couldn't leave the store with it until the amended carry permit came back from the County Clerk's office with the new guns listed on it... gotta love NY!

Robby is an R9S, S/N R5225, and reportedly had very light single-owner use before coming to me.  Based on the wear (lack thereof, really) and the fact that the case came with what I presume to be the original spare replacement spring, I have no reason to doubt that.  I would guess about 100 rounds before I got it, if not less. 

I fired some Blazer JHP ammo through it just to get a feel for the gun and to see how it ran.  Upon receipt, it appeared to be properly lubricated, and the firing pin retainer did NOT move at all when I checked it.  The grip screws were plenty tight.  (I did my homework ahead of time re: common issues).  When I loaded a full six-round mag into it, it didn't want to chamber the first round.  I am NOT a wimp when it comes to racking a slide, so I know I pulled it back all the way and let it go rather than riding it forward.  It seemed to me as though the case mouth was hanging up on the bottom of the feed ramp, but I sure wasn't going to stick my booger hooks into the chamber to research further; I already knew that these guns were picky about what they eat and I had a box of the proper "food" on the way (Speer Gold Dot 124 Gr JHP).  The problem was correctable by giving the back of the slide a tap, as suggested in the manual.  Mags with five rounds would feed the first one, but at least one of the remaining shots hung up in the same manner in three out of the four magazines I eventually fired that first day.  I don't recall the details but I do know there wasn't any discernible pattern.  No other failures of any sort.

After that first session, I disassembled and cleaned everything and decided that, while I waited for the paperwork to get squared away, I'd like to get the remaining exposed "shiny bits" like the barrel, hammer, trigger, mag catch, mag baseplates, etc. Cerakoted in satin black.  I could take PARTS of the gun out of the store, just not the frame with the serial number.  Plus, I wanted to dimple the sight posts IOT have a spot to put some sight paint (or nail polish, as was also suggested).  The guy I sent the parts to did a great job, and he also polished the barrel feed ramp.  Although I was somewhat concerned about the Cerakoting reducing what are known to be some already pretty tight tolerances, lubrication and reassembly seemed to prove these concerns to be unfounded.  Working the action by hand with no magazine, it feels like it runs like a Swiss watch.  Not that I've had it side by side with a Covert model, but I suspect you couldn't hardly tell the difference between the two without looking at my wallet to see all the money that's still in there!  I also went with a set of VZ Grips and put some TractionGrip on the front and back straps.  It LOOKS like a whole different gun thanks to the Cerakoting, and FEELS like a whole different gun thanks to the grip modifications!

In the meantime, my Speer Gold Dots had arrived, and the "adoption" paperwork followed shortly thereafter.  I haven't had a chance to FIRE the pistol in its current configuration, but after doing some functions checks at home I have some concerns to say the least.  At least one round in each mag fails to feed in the same manner as described above.  Sometimes two or three.  No clear pattern (like 'it's always the first one' or 'it's always the third one,' etc.)  Plus, I can see a "gouge" that runs down from almost the tip of the nose of the bullet, down the jacket, and all the way down the casing on EVERY round that I cycle through the gun by hand.  It's as though (my guess) the feed ramp is shaving a bit off of every round as it chambers them.  I noticed this on the Blazers, too, so I don't think it has anything to do with the feed ramp polishing.

I do have some 9mm snap caps, which do NOT have a lip where the case mouth would normally be... I didn't yet try cycling those to see if it doesn't hang up with them, but that's a troubleshooting step I'll try tonight.  I also did NOT yet try swapping out the recoil spring with the (presumably original and unused) spare in the case.  When I had the gun disassembled, I did compare the two side-by-side and the one in the bag is noticeably longer by at least 1/4".  I have a 5-pack on the way from Wolff. 

BOTTOM LINE:  I suspect one of three issues (or a combination thereof) is at play and would very much welcome some suggestions:

1)  Recoil spring too weak and needs to be replaced.
2)  Magazine springs too strong and need to be compressed.
3)  Barrel feed ramp is out of tolerance/alignment and needs to be smoothed. 

Thanks in advance for the help!  I can't wait to EDC this thing once all the bugs are worked out.

-Jon

[MICHPATRIOT]

I would try a new recoil spring, clean the inside of your mag with alcohol and q-tips getting it perfectly clean..no black on q-tips when finished. Then give your mag spring a little stretch to 6 1/2 inch long when finished..also check that there are 12 coils on spring not 10 there are newer springs now that are stronger..TW25 grease on rails, barrel, roof of slide where barrel contacts it and barrel opening on front of slide, barrel pivot pin and slot ,barrel lug where it seats in frame, entire recoil spring assy, face of hammer also gets grease, the bottom of the slide gets grease where it slides on the bullets that are in the mag also. I grease mine with a brush..lots of tw25. I do this after every trip to the range..and I only shoot about 30rnds. Clean and well greased with strong springs seems to be the ticket. I also replace my outer recoil spring every 50rnds, both of my R9 run flawless. Bench racking is NOT a comparison to how a pistol will run, you will never match the forces in action while firing. There will be marks on the shell case after chambering..doesn't mean the mag spring is too strong. To recap, new recoil spring, stretch mag spring, grease it like a monkey and wipe off the excess after reassembly. oh did I say more TW25 LOL!

Mich

[MICHPATRIOT]

I really wish I could disassemble and prep peoples R9s with them so they can see that the solution is almost always lube and spring tension related..Its a feel thing for me..how do the cartridges feel when I am pushing them down loading the mag?, how is the tension when racking the slide? Give the mag a slap to seat the cartridges to the rear of the mag. I have even stretched the recoil spring that I use at the range to get better slide tension, tho I only recommend carry with a fresh one. When the mag gets dirty inside, the spring cant lift and support the cartridge fast or strong enough. Clean the mag often and do not put any lube/oil inside a mag..ever. I kno there are some lucky people who have never cleaned a mag inside ever, but I think they are on borrowed time, and it is so easy to clean them and restretch the spring that it baffles me as to why you wouldnt do so on a carry pistol.

Don't leave us hangin..
Post after the next range visit.
Theres no luck involved just bases to be covered and you'll be shootn happy.

Mich

[JoshA]

I think Mich is correct. I also wonder about oal on the blazer.

For me it's this:

1) fresh recoil spring. (Mich said)

2) clean and lube (mich said)

3) 124 gr gold dot (you said)

4) 124 lawman if you so desire for range work since it mimmicks 124 gr Gold Dot in oal and recoil etc. designed like that for range purposes on purpose.

If no further issues are experienced I also recommended the backup9 range session

I was hard headed and sore handed and it took me a while to listen but I finally submitted to his wisdom.

1) take clean gun with 2 mags of carry ammo to the range.

2) remove from pocket and fire the rounds in the gun

3) replace mag and repeat

4) take gun home and clean, lube and replace spring IF NEEDED

5) carry (1-6 months for me)

6) repeat when you get the opportunity.

Granted I had to get mine firing 100% first. Then once it was proved this is what I did.

As Eric Rohrbaugh says, they don't get worn out riding in your pocket. He said he carried his like this for 5 years once before emptying it. It was 100%. To his point it doesn't take remarkable skill to shoot the little gun at 3-20 ft

See backup and ecr: I did listen and learn.

[ECR]

Glad you did listen Josh. . . . . It is really simplicity at it's best. This little gun isn't brain surgery. . . . but some people make it that way, sorry to say. 

Eric R.

[Volvofan]

Thanks for the quick replies, gents!

1)  Appreciate the cleaning and lubing tips, but this is not the issue.  I ensured everything was spotless and well greased according to the manual before taking Robby to the firing line. 

2)  Mags are dry as a bone and if you unwrapped the sheet metal, you could use the insides as mirrors they're so clean.  12 coils on the springs.  I tap every mag to seat the rounds all the way back, every time.  Hardest part about that is remembering I'm not wearing a Kevlar helmet

3)  Measured mag springs at 5.5", so I gently stretched them out to 6.5" per Mich's suggestion.  The outer recoil spring inside the gun measured at 1.435" and the one in the case measured at 1.580".  I stretched the used one back to stock length. 

4)  Reassembled and re-lubed everything, then fed him the snap caps (actually, they do have a bit of a "case mouth" lip on them).  Two cycles of 6+1 functioned 100%.  Then switched to the GD 124s... Four cycles of 6+1 with one FTFeed, second to last round in the 3rd mag.  I took a close look at the failure and noticed two things: First, I could see tiny brass-colored flecks around the firing pin and ejector area, and scattered about the chamber as well.  Not a ton and not huge chunks, but a bit alarming.  Second, it seemed that the hang-up was occurring as the cartridge rim (the back of the casing... Forgive any errors in terminology) was sliding its way up under/behind the extractor.  Looking at all the ejected rounds, I could see little "bite marks" back there, which seemed to be where the flecks were coming from. 

5)  Looking at the line down the bullet as it rode up the feed ramp into the barrel, I could see that the side of the bullet contacted the feed ramp first, not the nose, and there was no sign of the case throat catching on the barrel.  It seems my initial suspicion of that was probably incorrect.

I'm going to try to get to the range tomorrow and see how it goes.  If three or four mags of GD 124 fire 100%, then Robby will get cleaned, lubed, and will get that new recoil spring as we settle in to a routine similar to what Josh described, which would be fitting given the amount of range time I typically get per annum and given the intended purpose of this gun.

I will let you all know how it goes!

-Jon

[tracker]

As MICH suggested, is all of this commentary based on bench racking as opposed to firing through the mags?

[Volvofan]

Yes, only racking on the bench thus far since trying the Speer Gold Dots and stretching the springs.  Headed to the range this afternoon.

-Jon

[tracker]

I hope that you are pleasantly surprised; one other ammo that I like for the R9 is Federal HST 124 gr. but you can't go wrong with GD.

[Douglas]

I respect that you are fully aware of how to rack a slide sir. 100%.

I am too.

I still have first round (-as in when inserting a new magazine) feed problems all the time with mine. With the R9, it's not just about not riding the slide. You need to rack it like you hate it.

My opinion is that the spring is so tight, or strong, or whatever, that even when it feels as if it has been completely compressed, that is: racked fully to the rear, in fact, there is still a crucial 1/8" or 1/16" or whatever that needs to be pulled.

With an unloaded pistol, take a look for yourself. Rack it so it feels right to you, then take a look. I suspect you'll see what I've seen: there's just a bit more spring to be compressed.

Heck, try it. It's free! 

[tracker]

Great advice and I suspect many of us have experienced the same.

[Volvofan]

Thx, all, for the opinions, facts, and everything in between.  I've certainly got too much of the former and not enough of the latter, myself, which is why I really appreciate everyone weighing in so quickly with great suggestions to help.

BLUF:  Total success at the range.  Four full 6+1 cycles at 4 and 7 yards fired 100% flawless!

The problem was NOT (I'm fairly sure):
-Inadequate/improper lubrication
-Improper racking technique (I literally attempt to rip the slide off of the back of the gun.. It's not so much a matter of pulling the slide back and releasing it as it is yanking it violently back to the stop and tearing it free from my hand)
-Issues with the feed ramp, extractor, or any part of Robby's mechanical tolerances

The problem WAS (near as I can tell):
- "Tired" recoil and/or magazine springs.  Stretching both back to design length per Mich's instructions seemed to give Robby his insatiable appetite back.
- Improper food.  Robby is apparently a strict Speer-itarian (they don't eat Blazers).  Switching to the 124 gr GDHPs drastically reduced FTFeeds as already reported, with the few that still remained likely attributable to bench racking vs. actually firing the gun.

I will give Robby a thorough disassembly, cleaning, and lube today (including a new reciol spring), then he'll ride confidently with me for a few months (fed with the rest of that same box of GDHP) until I have a chance to take him out for some exercise this summer.

BTW, I did notice all four grip screws loosening by the end of the range session.  Honestly, I think two or three mags every few months is all I'll ever shoot through him, and I'll do a full disassembly after each range trip anyways, so I am fine with simply snugging them up as part of reassembly and not fussing with Loctite or O-rings or whatever.

I'll post some photos of Robby in the pic thread soon.  Thanks again to all the SMEs helping me to carry and maintain my Rohrbaugh with confidence!

-Jon

[ECR]

Sounds like a few great days of conversation about the R9 here. . . . . and Yes ~ Pulling back ALL THE WAY on the slide and then letting go quickly should get your first round into the chamber without issue. That has been one of the operational quirks from day one. To load it properly, make sure you pull the slide back fully and let it "snap" forward to load the first round in a fully loaded magazine.

Good work guys!

Eric R.

[MICHPATRIOT]

Every shot of a pistol effects the mag spring strength, time compressed to proper dimensions does little to nothing on spring life/strength but on a pistol this size firing takes a quicker toll on the mag spring than on higher mass pistols...from time to time restretching the spring is necessary, which is also work hardening the spring, and making it stiffer. Repeted stretching makes it stronger ...up until it breaks.

[MRC]

Every shot of a pistol effects the mag spring strength, time compressed to proper dimensions does little to nothing on spring life/strength but on a pistol this size firing takes a quicker toll on the mag spring than on higher mass pistols...from time to time restretching the spring is necessary, which is also work hardening the spring, and making it stiffer. Repeted stretching makes it stronger ...up until it breaks.

I am no spring expert, gunsmith, or armorer, but anyone I have talked to or read has advised not stretching any compression springs especially magazine springs.

This has been covered on the"High Road" site and the "Firing Line".  They say that stretching the spring is a temporary fix and it returns to its original length quite quickly and is weakened in the process.  I discussed this with my Gunsmith years ago when we were having trouble finding a replacement spring and this is the same answer I got from him.

I am not here to argue the point, but new springs are cheap. 

Do your own research.