The Rohrbaugh Forum

Miscellaneous => Other Guns => Topic started by: Mr_Jody_Hudson on May 27, 2004, 02:27:50 AM

Title: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrbaugh
Post by: Mr_Jody_Hudson on May 27, 2004, 02:27:50 AM
I'm still torn.

I LOVE my Rohrbaugh.  However the Keltec P-11 with 4 or 5 more rounds and a bit more velocity is another choice.

I will be likely to have my Glock 19 most of the time but there will be times when my usual dress; casual business, is not conducive to anything except pocket carry.

My age and slowness of gait, due to severe spinal degeneration, make me a potential target for BGs.  We have been experiencing more and more muggings and car jackings from parking lots where the BGs are in groups of 3 to 6 people.

I will certainly be training to shoot well with my Rohrbaugh.  But those extra rounds are going to be hard to put down, that fit into the Keltec.  My Keltecs all hold 11 rounds in each of the magazines, so with an extra magazine that would give me 12 in the gun plus 11 more for a reload from behind cover if need be.

I solicit debate and conjecture about this, please.  Keltec or Rohrbaugh - 7 at 1,000 fps or 12 at 1,100 fps; that is the question!
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 27, 2004, 10:22:16 AM
in the first place, the 100 gr CorBon Powrball is a better bet,or the 90 gr jhp from CorBon.  I don't trust jhp's to expand in flesh at less than  1300 fps, because I've seen them fail to do so on animals, lots of times

If you need more than 7 rds, you need more than a pistol, much less a pocket pistol.  Wear some good concealed armor,too.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: flyandscuba on May 27, 2004, 11:40:08 AM
The P-11 is a good little pistol -- but isn't a pocket carry gun in my opinion.  It's just too big -- even for relaxed slacks, much less blue jeans.  I have the P-11, P-40, P-357, P-32, and P-3AT offerings from Kel-Tec...  At present, the P-3AT is what goes in my pocket.  I can use it with front pocket carry -- even in tight blue jeans.

I'm hoping the R9s will be just as comfortable in front pocket carry.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 27, 2004, 12:30:53 PM
forget the tight jeans.  Their pockets won't let you take a firing grip on ANY pistol, and make a swift draw from same.  Tight jeans are kid stuff. A ccw man just has to make certain concessions in how he dresses, that' s all. I've had a seamstress add larger pockets to many of my pants over the years.  One either gets serious about having an adequately powerful gun in the pocket, goes with a belt rig, or settles for some mouse gun that's nothing but a bluff.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: norfdet893 on May 27, 2004, 11:44:09 PM
Well for what it is worth, here is my .02 worth. I never really considred carrying a BUG off duty until I bought my P32 about a year ago. As an LEO i have been carrying a BUG while working for years. I carry a P3AT daily now as a BUG while working and while off. That being said, I don't really consider the P3AT a primary carry piece. If I needed something for pocket carry as a primary I used the PM9. I loved the P32 so much I bought a P11, then the P3AT and now a P40. The P11 filled the gap between my Smith full size 5946 (duty weapon) and my P3AT. I liked having 12 9mm rounds instead of 6 or 7 from the PM9. It was also nice to have a larger grip, sight raduis and barrel. Now the P11 has been replaced by the P40 becasue of the more potent round. If you feel comfortable with the less is more theory than the rohrbaugh should be fine if it is in your price range. If not than the PM9 may be more suited to your taste. I will say that for the asking price of the rohrbaugh now, you could get a PM9 and a P11. For me though, I am interested in the R9 to replace my P3AT! I will wait and monitor the progress of these pistols on this board before I make the commitment. For me the PM9 although lighter than my previous MK9, it is still a little large for BUG pocket carry.

Consider you options and find what falls best within your budget and needs.

Regards.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: R9SCarry on May 28, 2004, 12:40:45 AM
norfdet makes the valid point I think that the R9 is the desirable replacement for a P3-AT . I have one .. it pockets well but - I am not over enamored with it.  The R9 by comparison does all i want and with style .. for such a diminutive piece.

P-11 is a step up beyond these two . Sure I like the spec Jody .. ammo capacity particularly.  In the end it's what you can tote, ''on the day'' ... I mean, despite being besotted with the R9 .. I am still managing to tote my SP-101 . I am very at ease with it ... and carry one speedloader.

The true pocket piece tho .. P3-AT or now R9 .. comes into its own once all other options are used .. and this for me is dress dependant.  Tho of course ... the R9 can always have BUG status if nothing else.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: packin_heat on May 28, 2004, 12:38:59 PM
my p-11 fits in my front pocket fine, even with a pinky rest, hogue handall jr and belt clip. i had Azrael make me a pocket holster with a groove in the side so i dont haveta take the clip off to put it in the holster. however now i want a p-32. hard chrome and light blue grip. mmmnnn...great now im drooling
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 28, 2004, 01:50:29 PM
why settle for .32, when its semi rimmed case causes problems, P3AT is just as small and lw, 380 ammo hits harder, is cheaper, more available?
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: packin_heat on May 28, 2004, 03:18:10 PM
simply because im still a little leary of the P3AT, many people have had issues with it. however, many people have also had them perfect out of the box. i suppose by the time i am ready to get one of the two, the 380 will be perfected enough, and the price down a little.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 28, 2004, 03:28:04 PM
either one is just a joke, unless you either pull eyeball shots or hotload the locked breech 380. they just aint got enough power to amount to a hoot.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: packin_heat on May 28, 2004, 06:11:43 PM
well its my choice and i like them. if they were worthless, they wouldnt be made. and if they were worthless, then how come people have died from .22lr and .25acp? im not saying its a great primary weapon or a great manstopper. but they can kill and protect.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 28, 2004, 07:29:26 PM
that's right, so why not have a .22, and practice 15x as much, for the same cost, hmm?  Lethality and stopping power have almost nothing in common. I can cause your (eventual) death with an injection of AIDS blood, and I can stop you cold with a ball bat across your gut, and you will probably be ok in a day or so.

Wrong on the worthless. Just look at the derringers, Sundance and Lorcin .25's, mini revolvers, lots of stuff around that's worthless. Look at Scott, Triple K or Promag magazines. Look at clip on IWB rigs. About 1 really fast draw in 5-6, the rig comes out of your belt with the gun.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 28, 2004, 07:31:08 PM
Look at the extended mag releases for 1911's, which cause inadvertant dropping of the mag. Look at the extended 1911 slidereleases, which snag during a concealed draw. Look at the sharp corners on many adjustable rear sights on defense pistols.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: packin_heat on May 28, 2004, 07:36:07 PM
what does that crap haveta do with the keltec 32 and 380? thats what i was talking about. and i never said anything about any particular brand of .25. yes many were crap. im talking about the ammos power. you said that the 32s and 380s power didnt amount to a hoot.
oh well, in every post youve made at this site, youve had a know it all  bossy tone, and im sick of it, so you wont see me post here anymore.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 28, 2004, 07:53:16 PM
Ever heard of Mohammad Ali? He said:" If you can DO it, it ain't bragging".  I know this subject better than you know your favorite food.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: MurrayNevada on May 28, 2004, 08:37:45 PM
Wilco:
What is the basis for your level of expertise?
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: R9SCarry on May 29, 2004, 02:13:51 AM
What Murray said!!

Is this John Davis we are speaking with??  :P
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 29, 2004, 01:56:12 PM
The basis is 35+ years of study of guns, shooting, reloading, casting, holstermaking, ccw, smithing, matches, efficient training, martial arts, etc. No, neither the military nor law enforcement had anything to do with it.  The top men are almost never to be found in such institutions, and if they are, they still achieved what they did on their own, not because of their job, but usually in spite of their job interfering with attaining top ability.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: MurrayNevada on May 29, 2004, 04:48:30 PM
Wilco:
Thanks for the info.  By the tone of your posts I would have thought you a younger man.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: GeorgeH on May 30, 2004, 01:50:41 AM
My first pocketgun was a Seecamp 25. Before than, I thought carrying a mouse gun was a waste of time.

I was wrong.

It is more important to carry than not.

More people have been killed with a 22 than with any other caliber. We tend to be hung up on caliber and speed. I would rather stress marksmanship and weapon control. A 22 in the head is far more effective than a 45 in the thigh.

Using pocket pistols, including mini 22 revolvers, I ensure that I am aways armed. I've been able to carry a Seecamp in my swim trunks while at the beach watching my 7 year old son play. You can't do that with a belt rig.

As to clip holsters: I love them. They give me flexability.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: shooterjb on May 30, 2004, 02:59:54 AM
First of all George,

To be fair, I think that Ron's clip holsters work much better than most others. I have been using my Saigon Clips and Clippers for some time and have not had any problems.

To address Wilco's concerns,

I am amazed that any sane civilian would wear body armor on a regular basis. Wearing body armor in the sun on a 100 degree day for eight hours is not something that most people would willingly do unless they were mandated to do it by their employer. People who wear body armor do it under those circumstances all the time. It isn't fun even if you are using a $35 undershirt specifically made to make it less unpleasant. Body armor also invariably prints. I wonder what a civilian's supervisors, peers and subordinates think of that. The body armor discussion all makes me think of Wild Bill Hickock and Jessie James. Both of them caught it in the back of the head.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: GeorgeH on May 30, 2004, 12:59:04 PM
Hi Frank:

I sweat enough as it is. If I wore body armor, everyone would know simply by using their nose.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: R9SCarry on May 30, 2004, 02:28:59 PM
Quote
If I wore body armor, everyone would know simply by using their nose.
Bwhahaha!  George ... agreed!!  if I tried to wear that stuff this time of year - I'd not need a gun ... I'd disable anyone within 20 feet thru shere olfactory abuse ... knock em right over!! ;D
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 31, 2004, 01:27:52 AM
It's not  100 degrees most of the time, ANYwhere in the US,much less most places. Many states NEVER see 100 degrees.  A decent vest is quite undetectable under a simple shirt.

Armed is a state of mind. I'm more armed with just a stiffened finger than most men are with a machete. All you are with a mini-revolver is kidding yourself.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: R9SCarry on May 31, 2004, 01:31:24 AM
Is that you John?? .... you didn't answer before --- I am still waiting to know!  :)
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: flyandscuba on May 31, 2004, 02:40:48 AM
Well, since we've heard about Wilco's "years of experience", I'll chime in here with a little experience-based reality of my own -- I just can't "bite my tongue" anymore.

In my years of experience in emergency medicine, the most common firearm related deaths I encountered were caused by none other than the .22 LR -- simply because of their proliferation and availability.  Many of these were fired at very short range from firearms such as inexpensive RG revolvers, etc.

In comparison, I treated a victim who was shot 5 times in the upper body with a .45 ACP and later walked out of the hospital.  Although he was a rare case (less than 15 minutes elapsed from his transport from the scene to when he was placed on the operating table thanks to the BO 105 helicopter).  Many more factors enter into the incapacitation equation (such as mental, emotional, and physical) than can be evaluated by shooting bullets into ballistic gelatin or some other media.

So, if one doesn't think a pocket gun is of value -- my question is, why are you here?  Have you ordered an R-9?  Do you intend to do so?

I've ordered an R-9s and will most likely carry it daily once it arrives.  Presently, I carry a P-3AT daily.  Before that, it was the P-32.  And before that, it was an NAA mini in .22 WMR.  I am glad that innovative manufacturers like George Kelgren and Eric Rohrbaugh have jumped in to develop ever impressive and effective pocket guns.

The thought of a 9mm has me excited.  But I'm very comfortable carrying the .380 ACP.  However, even if I had my old .22 WMR -- I doubt that someone with a "stiffened finger" would get close enough to touch me.

One more thing.  Body armour for the "common man" is extreme in my opinion.  LEOs wear body armour -- and should, because they are subject to entering a situation of armed conflict.  I carry a concealed weapon as a defensive (not offensive) weapon.  Evading or retreating from a potential conflict is of first order.  My pocket pistol is intended to repel the BGs until I can make my escape.

I'm not one to go looking for a fight....unless it is for gun forum trolls... ::)
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: shooterjb on May 31, 2004, 02:43:02 AM
Hi Wilco,

I hope that I am allowed to say this on this forum, and I sincerely, sincerely apologize if I am not, but you are full of shit. Try wearing body armor on an 80 degree day in the sun. It is just as unpleasant and is no fun either. I do it all of the time. You say that a decent vest is quite undectable under a simple shirt. I am not aware of any threat level IIA armor that won't print under a heavy uniform shirt, for instance an Elbeco or Flying Cross tropical weight shirt. Please advise me of the make and model number that has a decent protection level and is so inconspicuous. I will invest in some even though most current body armor by credible manufacturers is in the $600-$900 dollar range.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: RJ HEDLEY on May 31, 2004, 07:37:51 AM
flyandscuba and Shooterjb
YOU  both NAILED IT !!
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 31, 2004, 12:16:15 PM
theyr'e both full of it, and you all know it, because most of the time, in most of the US, it's not 80 degrees, either.  I've seen many guys wearing 2nd chance, which printed LESS than the IWB, fbi type rigs that they wore. :-)

No, I'm not paying $800 for a DAO pocket gun, whose warranty is voided by the use of wussy "Plus P" loads, which have no more effectiveness than a proper load in a locked breech  380, which I can buy all day long for  $300.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: wilco on May 31, 2004, 12:21:19 PM
Care to point out WHERE I ever said a pocket gun is of no value? You can't do so, so you are lying about that. After you admit that, and apologize for putting words in my mouth, I MIGHT consider you worthy of being answered.

A .22lr pocket auto can handle 90+% of civilian confrontations, because well over  80% of attackers will back down at just the SIGHT of your (ready) gun, or at shots fired that dont hit them. About half of those who don't back down, will stop at being solidly hit in the chest, with 1-2 .22's, and if you are REALLY skilled with the .22, you can also sometimes make head shots.  Even if the bullet does not reach the brain, an 80 ft lb lick to the skull will rock his world, letting you shoot at him again, and delaying his closing with you, or his ability to shoot you. In that delay-time, you can hit his head again,most likely, and repeat until a .22 slips into an eye socket, sinus cavity, temple, or base of skull, or until you can break his leg with a sidekick and then kick his head off of his shoulders.
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: flyandscuba on May 31, 2004, 01:01:25 PM
Wilco,

You're going back on the "ignore list".  You can spout your "expertise" and philosophies as you lurk amongst the tables at local gun shows.  Participants can use a good laugh.  The use of the written word is clearly not your area of expertise.

As for 80 degree temperatures -- once again, the outside air temperature is only one factor involved in the effects of wearing body armour.  Hudimity (percentage of water vapor in the air) and the micro-climate created between the body and the body armour (because it is an effective vapor barrier) and the physical activity of the wearer -- all enter into the comfort and heat stress effects of the wearer.

You see, your body temperature at rest is almost 99 degrees.  When your normal sweat process cannot create the cooling properties it was designed for, you create a micro-climate (temperature goes up and humidity goes up within the micro-climate).  Add even moderate physical activity, and the heat index of that micro-climate will soon greatly exceed the 100 degree temperture you rant about -- thus affecting the comfort and performance -- even health -- of the wearer.

Police officers can tell you real life stories of the comfort level of wearing that body armour -- even in an air conditioned vehicle.

Give us some references to your published works (all "experts" have them), or even a website address touting your wares as a "gunsmith or holster maker" -- and maybe people will begin to believe you have even a clue of what you're talking about.  Otherwise, go back to reading Soldier of Fortune -- and whatever "work" you do that makes you think you're an expert......maybe the sporting goods counter at Walmart? 

Your tone from the beginning of your participation on this board was evident of your agenda.  You've now admitted that you don't intend to buy a Rohrbaugh -- well this is what this board is about.  You've probably got a P-3AT (a fine gun) -- go over to www.ktog.org and participate, unless you've already been labeled a "troll" over there (we don't need you at the KTRange, either!)....a TROLL is clearly what you are here!

OK Duane, I've got it off my chest.  I'll not respond to anymore of Wilco's drivel.  He will most surely reply -- with his artful writing style --  to get the "last word".  Others, I'm sure, will agree with what I've said. :-X
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: RJ HEDLEY on May 31, 2004, 01:01:54 PM
A question,  Is there an *ignore* feature offered on this forum,  if there is, I can't find it...This thread has deteriorated to a frothing RANT !
Title: Re: I'm still torn - between Keltec P-11 and Rohrb
Post by: DDGator on May 31, 2004, 01:28:50 PM
Yeah, sorry to arrive so late.  This thread has gotten counter-productive.  I want to give people leeway to talk, but only as long as it is productive.

Much of what gets spewed about on threads like this is not good for the cause and doesn't help enlighten people about Rohrbaughts or concealed carry.  There are other boards for these types of discussions --- maybe...

There is no "ignore" feature for threads -- only PMs.  However, anti-social behavior and counterproductive behavior will get you banned from the site.  That I can do.

Wilco -- this is an overdue warning.  The tone of your posts is insulting in nature.  It won't be tolerated here.  Intellectual discussion that is on-point and productive is fine -- attacks are not.

**Locked**