Author Topic: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?  (Read 15526 times)

Offline wldavis

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2005, 09:28:53 PM »
I have the same wear marks on my R9.  In fact, I had to send mine back for some FTE's and FTF's problems that I had.  I even listed it in my letter of discrepancies when I sent it back.  I haven't had a chance to shoot it since I've gotten it back but, they didn't mention or say anything about the wear marks when they contacted me about the problems they found.  This led me to believe that the marks were just normal wear.  My pistol is a very early model with less than 300 rounds through it.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 12:56:21 AM by wldavis »

Offline Datan

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2005, 10:56:19 PM »
Quote
I have the same wear marks on my R9.

On your R9, are the wear marks just removal of the finish or do you have areas that are worn into the aluminum?  If you refer to the second pic that I posted and see the worn lines between the rails (focus on the top line specifically), you can see (kind of) that it is dug into the aluminum and something has actually gouged and pushed some aluminum back towards the rear/mag well...  

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2005, 11:22:36 PM »
Guys - I have just stripped mine down but have to take some pics.  I already have some thoughts/observations.  I'll post again soon as I can.
Chris - R9S
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Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2005, 12:09:54 AM »
Ok - taken some pics - apolagies tho because a bit rushed and lighting not really quite showing as much detail as I'd like.  Suffice to say tho - here we see similar pattern tho, not much displacement - mostly ''rub'' type appearance - no real burrs to be felt.

The light color frame is of course my #1, with approx 300 thru.  The gray frame is #2 and that has only about 100 approx thru it.  I reckon this effect will show very early possibly.

The first two pics are attempts to show the main wear area, similar to Datan's pics of that area.

The third is a side view, taken because I want to raise a point.  I am adding more commentary after pics .....










~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK now, here is what I am thinking.  First off steel/aluminum - no contest re hardness so even with lube, enough pressure can and will lead to some change in frame surface.  I reckon that any rub at all - slightest - will perforce leave some marking on anodizing .... even slightly removing same.  That tho is just miniscule rubbing.

Now, looking at what leads to this main wear appearance, I am of opinion - for now at least - that this is caused by the under side of chamber area - either side of lug.  During firing cycle, barrel unlocks as soon as slide proceeds rearwards .... and then as slide returns it again locks up.  Once unlocking then I see the probablility of some slight downward movement and I think it is the slight ''impact'' rub from this that is causing the wear.

Because of this I do not see the wear as overly prejudicial and it will possibly be self limiting over time.

I placed that third pic to provoke thought over the prime required integrity - which is slide on rails.  I can see no wear on my rails at all - the most is a small anodic ''scuff'' on the darker frame rail in view.

Now if I saw wear on the rails I would be concerned - but here we have tight tolerances, and proper lube will prevent any problem because we have linear sliding motion and little else.

The barrel unlocking produces a different stress - not a stress that will lead to any failure - just a stress resulting in a slight ''slamming'' of chamber base against frame twice each cycle, with perhaps a slight ''shuffle'' too.  In fact unlocking may be more to blame - or locking may be so - hard to tell - let's assume both have equal effect for now.

Do you see where I am coming from here?  I am not trying to say it is a desirable trait to see per se - but looking at the mechanics, stresses, materials and results - do not see this as overtly prejudicial.

I shall still be interested to know the R Bros take - I am also interested to see what Eric might say when looking at his early gun which has had IIRC over 5k rounds thru it.  Is that showing same?  Is it any worse?

I'll leave this here for now and think further but this is where I am at right now.  Open to any input.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW meant say - sorry about some crud showing!!  I did a very quick wipe over to get rid of surplus lube but did not continue to produce a pristeen state!  Too much to do this evening.

.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 12:22:10 AM by R9SCarry »
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Offline Brenden

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2005, 12:47:12 AM »
Chris,
    Your pics are fine-crud and all.. ;)
I do know that there is a difference between wear of "finish" and the material of the frame / slide..

I personally have not seen anything more than natural finish wear,but I have not shot a K worth of of rounds yet.. ;)

If there is a problem-Rohrbaugh will take care of it and let US know, I am sure..
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Offline wldavis

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2005, 01:17:10 AM »
Datan,

My pistol looks like your pics; it is definitely worn into the aluminum.  



R9SCarry,

I understand what you are saying.... however, with the quality and detail that goes into these pistols, you would think that they would have just milled off just a little more in that area just so there wouldn't be any cosmetic issues.  I am also sure that there isn't any problems with the wear but when you disassemble it and see the gouging in the frame it doesn't boast a whole lot of confidence in the quality and quite frankly it suggest that something is out of spec.  It especially isn't desirable when or if someone wants to try to resell it.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 10:56:57 AM by wldavis »

Offline ketap

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2005, 08:57:47 AM »
I agree wldavis, shortly I will be a rohrbaugh owner too, Like you stated, a gun with so much wear will be hard to resell. I remember hearing carried a lot, shot a little. Guess this statement holds true. I just am feeling a little uneasy now,as I would not be happy with a pistol that would be so wear sensitive as to keep me from shooting it too much.  

Offline RJ HEDLEY

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2005, 10:42:58 AM »
Thouhts on the frame wear

 It seems to me,

As a machine is used, evidence of wear will occur.  If  there are different materials used in the construction of this machine, the wear will be more pronounced on  the softer of  the two materials.

The Anodize finish will be the first to show wear.  Anodize is no different from a Blue finish in that respect.  

If the slide and frame were both of a  like material,  there will be  shiny spots [ideally] or rough spots [galling, not good]

Shiny spots[from above]
 These are high areas, or areas where forces change direction.  The Slide , in it's rearward travel, has to have changes in pressure against the rails, due to the barrel breaking contact with the slide.

I'm not too good at putting all this into words, but I hope it will provoke some more realistic thoughts on this discussion.  We should not expect to shoot this pistol and not have evidence of it.
 Keeping the pistol clean & lubed is the best protection against premature wear
This IS NOT aimed at anyone in particular.  

 I'm in full agreement with R9sCarry
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 11:03:45 AM by RHEDLEY »
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Offline ketap

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2005, 11:34:36 AM »
RJ well said. It is not the normal wear that concerns me, it is the galling from the previous pictures. Poster said he properly lubed his gun, his gun had imo excessive galling, thats my main concern. I am not a metal guy, so its just my opinion. thanks

Offline TW

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I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2005, 12:04:30 PM »
>>I have two R9s...lube generously as per factory specs, etc.  

The first one I got was used with ~500 rounds through it, and I noticed the same wear on it the first time I had it apart some 50 shots later.

The second gun arrived new in March of this year...and I noticed those same wear marks on it within 100 shots.

At this point I am not too concerned about the guns, although I watch this thread with interest.  I have all the confidence in the world in the R-bros, and would not hesitate to purchase again at this stage.  I think we need to watch that we don't start up any unnecessary group alarm, and we need to get some feedback from Karl and Eric.  However...if anyone wants to "unload" their R9s at a bargain price - I'm buying...!!..TW<<  

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2005, 12:38:45 PM »
Just to re-state a point I made ........ I don't think this wear area we are discussing is going to be prevented by lube, however generous.  It is in a different category from the slide rails.

It is a result of ''upsetting''  from barrel ''shuffle'' during unlock/lock IMO.  The design and tolerancing being so tight does mean that this is one area above all which can be prone to wear showing - but as I mentioned, I think this will be self-limiting.  

Sure (perhaps) that area could be machined to give more clearance which might negate the effect .... not sure..... but as TW has said this starts early in the gun's useage and as things are, is I reckon inevitable.  Because of the hardness differential it is rather obvious on the aluminum but I'd not be surprised if Erics #1 (5,000 rounds plus) shows similar but no worse despite the huge thruput - as I said - it could be self limiting once the gun is ''bedded in''.

I think it is very important to separate this issue from slide rails.
Chris - R9S
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Offline Datan

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2005, 06:00:50 PM »
Great observations/thoughts Chris/RJ/All.

Think we can say that wear in these locations is "normal".. to the extent mine is worn compared to others is in question - will be very interested to hear Rohrbaugh's take.  Chris, your dark frame doesn't look too dissimilar to mine - thx for the great pics (as usual).

Will keep everyone posted.


Offline Datan

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2005, 06:09:54 PM »
I just got off the phone with Karl.  After describing what I'm seeing, he told me "I know exactly what you are talking about".  He said this happens with the early guns.  I was told to send it in and that they'd "update" the gun for me.  I don't know exactly what "update" means.  I'm told I'll get the exact same gun back - they are not going to swap out the frame.  Karl sounded very busy so I didn't drill him further on exactly what will be done.  They are aware of this phenomenon, however, and have a "fix".  Wonder if they are going to mill the curved area down or something...  I will try to get more info and share..
Brian

Offline TW

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2005, 07:17:19 PM »
>>Chris - In your second pic...the one looking straight down from above it appears that there are some metal flakes grouped together in the cylindrical depression of your dark frame gun.  Is this so...?...and if it is - where do you think they originated...?...TW<<

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2005, 10:47:54 PM »
Indeed TW - I had forgotten to take a closer look and glad you asked - as I mentioned when I posted the pics, both guns were rather casually cleaned to wipe off grease - but I was aware there was crud remaining - just me being too lazy!

I just checked again having previously re-assembled quickly and yes, there were a coupla small flakes, the rest being grease residue.  I guess not overly surprising as what came off the frame had to have gone somewhere!!

Glad you brought that up or I would not have checked real close.
Chris - R9S
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