The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: FloridaCCW on January 20, 2011, 09:22:09 AM
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http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/open-carry-law-under-consideration-01172011
Thoughts?
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Legal open carry, could pose a problem if the gun is not secured to one's holster. Close quarters in a mall, someone walking by, the bad guy may find a way to get your gun.
If the holster has a quick release, for only the carrier, as does some law enforcement, may be OK, however, I would still carry concealed.
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Here in NC you can open carry without a permit and can only carry concealed with a permit.
I have read of an instance were someone open carrying had an over zealous store security guard try and grab his gun without saying anything first. It ended with a broken jaw for the security guard, because when he tried to remove the gun from behind, he received an elbow to the jaw.
I have friends who open carry because they do not have there CC permits. I don't see the point in open carry in public if you possess such a permit, except for hunting or at the range or around your property.
John
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Read an incident in a Walmart (in a legal open carry state) where an individual was open carrying and was reported to the store manager, who then asked the customer to leave the store. Customer didn't leave but was followed througout the store until he left.
Open carry does draw attention to one's self. I was in a Waffle House in Ga. recently and an individual walked in with a .45 auto on his hip. Didn't bother me, but he drew stares as long as he remained and as he walked out.
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Iowa just rewrote its carry law which went into effect on January 1st. Iowa is now an open carry state but requires the same permit as concealed. I haven't heard of any open carriers in public yet, but I really don't think it is a good idea other than hunting or hiking either.
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Tennessee law does not require a holder of a Handgun Carry Permit to keep the weapon concealed, but you rarely see anyone carrying openly. You might assume, however, that with a population of 6.2 million and 339,000 handgun carry permits having been issued by the Department of Safety, every 18th person you pass on the street could be legally armed at the time.
I personally prefer to carry my weapon(s) concealed. It prevents alarming the nervous types and keeps the BGs wondering.
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Could also mean that a good number of those other 17 people are illegally armed. Something to think about, at least for me.
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Open carry is already legal in FL when hunting or fishing and while traveling to and from these activities. I really can't think of any other circumstances where I would want to open carry, but if one did arise this change in the law would enable me to do so based on my own judgment.
Rick
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Open carry is legal in Pennsylvania and no license / permit is required to open carry - as long as you do not ride in a vehicle, and as long as you don't carry in Philadelphia (where you do need a license for either open or concealed carry). Walk to where you're going and walk home and it's legal. I have never seen another person open carrying so it's not common - but it is done.
A Pennsylvania LTCF (License To Carry Firearms) does NOT require you to conceal - although with one you CAN conceal anywhere except a prohibited place (Courthouse, Post Office, etc); you can also transport in any vehicle with no restrictions on where the gun is or if it's loaded. A concealed carry permit from any state gives you the same rights in PA as a PA LTCF does as long as that state's license is recognized by PA.
Personally I don't open carry and I doubt that I ever would but it's nice to be able to do so legally. It's comforting to know that I don't have to worry if I don't do a good job of concealing and my carry gun prints or becomes visible.
Florida has sometimes been a bit of a jerk over failure to totally conceal so IMHO getting open carry in Florida would be a big boon for their armed citizens and visitors to that state.
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I am in Florida and I worry about the application of good Judgement. I am not against open carry, but the consequenes of a couple of crazies grabbing for a legal carriers gun, or a wild west situation breaking out with a few legal carriers just because my gun is bigger than yours may cause problems for legal CC down the road. I do like the fact that I could not be prosecuted or harassed for imprinting or showing a bit of a grip when moving around. There may be situations which might arise where of course I would like to open carry beyond what is already allowed here. Its a tough one.
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Michigan does not require concealment. One may conceal with a permit. Open carry is becoming more common.
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Michigan does not require concealment. One may conceal with a permit. Open carry is becoming more common.
Yes it is in some areas..
We can actually open carry in the CEZs (criminal empowerment zones) that we are not allowed to conceal carry in!! :o
That is some convoluted law there!!
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Could also mean that a good number of those other 17 people are illegally armed. Something to think about, at least for me.
I personally assume that to be possible at any given time and place. It has been my experience during 37 years at the Bar that neither potential nor convicted felons tend to be overly concerned with the niceties of gun-control laws.
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I think concealed carry gives me an edge. I practice with a goal of drawing from concealment and firing two rounds center mass in 1.5 seconds. That is why I use a strong side belt holster when possible. I can't get close to 1.5 with a pocket holster. Unless my hand is in my pocket before the draw.
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It has been my experience during 37 years at the Bar that neither potential nor convicted felons tend to be overly concerned with the niceties of gun-control laws.
And there in a nutshell you have captured the essence of why gun control does not work - it is only effective on law abiding citizens who do not represent a threat to others.
As my grandfather (also a member of the Bar) used to preach to me from the time I was too young to fire any kind of firearm: "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."
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http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/open-carry-law-under-consideration-01172011
Thoughts?
CCW. What are your thoughts! :D
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I personally see no advantage. However I could see down the road if more and more people carry open, more people doing it. And CCW holders carrying open out of lazinees or "it's too hot to dress this way", I'll go open.
But me, I'm always thinking "tactics".
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A) FL currently has some pretty draconian laws about printing - OC makes for a simple legal standard.
B) There are plenty of rural parts of FL, a few times, I would forget to cover before I started running into town on an errand - usually one of those "SunuVa" moments, when I broke something - it wouldn't be bad to not have to worry about it.
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There is a huge disadvantage to open carrying. And that is the element of surprise. If a bad guy comes into an area where you are and he scopes the area out. When he sees you are armed, you may become his number one target as you are his biggest threat. If he does not see a gun, you are still probably his biggest threat but he does not know it. Yet.
Chief
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There is a huge disadvantage to open carrying. And that is the element of surprise. If a bad guy comes into an area where you are and he scopes the area out. When he sees you are armed, you may become his number one target as you are his biggest threat. If he does not see a gun, you are still probably his biggest threat but he does not know it. Yet.
Chief
Amen!
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Very true. If they don't see it, they don't know you have it. It's your advantage to conceal it.
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There is a huge disadvantage to open carrying. And that is the element of surprise. If a bad guy comes into an area where you are and he scopes the area out. When he sees you are armed, you may become his number one target as you are his biggest threat. If he does not see a gun, you are still probably his biggest threat but he does not know it. Yet.
Chief
Very good thoughts!
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I have mixed feelings. I would like the right to do it, and then decide where and when. To me, open carry is mostly a political statement.
It would be nice to not have to worry about being a felon just because your cover garment comes open or rides up.
But, there is a definite tactical disadvantage. I will go one further too. When someone that doesn't like you wants to ruin your day, they call the cops and say (lie) you pointed your Glock 19 at them and threatened them. Cops stop you and you have a Glock 19. Your word against his -- sometimes you lose the probable cause game.
This is one of the reasons you don't tell people you carry, and you don't tell them what you carry. When its out in the open, it just makes it that much easier to set you up and seem credible.
That being said -- I will support the movement in Florida and make my own decisions as to when it is appropriate.
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More good thoughts. I would like to have the ability to open carry or not. Just peace of mind knowing you can.
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There is a huge disadvantage to open carrying. And that is the element of surprise. If a bad guy comes into an area where you are and he scopes the area out. When he sees you are armed, you may become his number one target as you are his biggest threat. If he does not see a gun, you are still probably his biggest threat but he does not know it. Yet.
Chief
Excellent! I have been saying this for a long time. Not that all the other points against open Carry aren't valid, this one makes me laugh in a sense because all the hype about the "SHOOT ME FIRST" Vests, what do you think would happen if you had an exposed handgun? Who'd get shot first especially if you are the only one in any particular place. I realize there is strength in numbers, but who's your friend/back-up at that point?
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Something else scares me about this push nationwide for open carry, those of us that like concealed carry could have a chance of loosing that. Law makers don't like to give up anything without taking something.We as a nation would gain OC and loose CC.
I certainly could see some states doing this.
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DD Gator, You know and I know that Most of the People that Open Carry cannot get a CCW, We all have rights, but, do we have to make a Fool of one self, they make it so easy for someone to take it away and use it for some illegal reason.
When it is Concealed only you know it is there and you will pick the time to use it. I know someone reading this is saying I have my Rights, you do, but do not yell Fire in a Theatre. Rights should be well thought out.
Also unless you have eyes in the back of you head, I hope you have a Good Holster. :'(
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Here in Florida open carry is allowed if you are going hunting or fishing. Usually does not involve being around many people in my case. But if I were going to open carry around the masses it would be in a retention holster for sure. Can you say Serpa? :)
Chief
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Here are my 2 cents on the subject.
I have had a carry permit in TN which allows open carry and currently have one in TX which does not. I firmly beleive that for a variety of reasons one should carry concealed even if allow to open carry. Those reasons are an entirely different conversation. I like the open carry option in TN because if I accidently expose my handgun in TX, even if a chance breeze catches my jacket, I am breaking the law and can lose my CHL or worse. Of course wearing a jacket in Houston is rare, but you get my meaning.
I support changeing the law in TX to allow open carry. To me the only danger is that if too many exercise that right it could hurt the cause in the public eye.
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CCW holders already have, by virtue of their not having done anything to prevent their getting a CCW permit, exhibited good judgment. Furthermore this thread is filled with people expressing good judgment discussing potential problems that could result from open carry in different situations. Many states now allow open carry and blood is not flowing in the streets. This law, if passed, places the judgment with the CCW holders where it should be, as well as removing potential legal problems should a concealed weapon become inadvertently exposed.
This law also allows CCW holders to carry on college campuses. As we have seen, "Gun Free Zones" do not work.
Rick
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Iowa rewrote its carry law and went from a concealed carry permit at the descretion of the County Sheriff to an open or concealed carry on a "shall issue" basis. If the applicant meets the qualifications, the sheriff must issue him one. This went into effect Jan 1st. As I had previously stated in this thread, the open carry part didn't sound like a good idea to me. I ran into a City LEO friend of mine and I asked him if they have had any complaints or instances of open carry reported or complained about and he said none what so ever which has surprised his department. Even with a rash of new permit holders, they seem to be using the privilege wisely.
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http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/open-carry-law-expected-to-pass-03162011
Open-carry law expected to pass
Updated: Wednesday, 16 Mar 2011, 9:22 PM EDT
Published : Wednesday, 16 Mar 2011, 9:22 PM EDT
Warren
Elly
TAMPA - Already known as "The Gun-Shine State," critics say Florida is about to get more dangerous with the legislature expected to approve open carrying of firearms.
Open carry allowances have long been restricted to hunters and fisherman.
"As an officer of the law, I wouldn't be opposed to it. I'd rather see whose got the gun and who doesn't," said veteran officer Tom Depolis, who was a deputy police chief in Tampa and chief deputy in Hillsborough County.
Depolis, who retired 10 years ago, is the exception among cops we checked with, like Detective Rick Cochran of the Tampa Police Union.
"I don't see anything good that can come of it," he said. I don't see a reason to allow people to openly carry a gun walking down the street or in the store. I don't see that making anybody comfortable."
You'll still need a permit and background check, and you still can't carry a gun, open or concealed in bars, police stations, jails, government meetings, schools or universities or school or pro-athletic events.
Yet with guns still flying off the shelves in Florida, folks in the business hope their customers will use common sense.
"It is going to make some people nervous, I think. We have a lot of people here from states where you're not allowed to have a gun, and tourists are down here all the time, so I hope that when people do start carrying openly they'll keep that in mind, and they do carry tastefully and respect everyone around them."
We met Lamecha Mingo as she was shooting her brand new Glock 40 caliber. She said she bought it for protection, and she likes the idea of carrying it in the open.
"You never know. Just in case something happens, you have that weapon there, maybe you can scare them off, use it to defend yourself," she said.
Other gun owners we talked to worry about becoming a target for bigger, worse criminals.
"If you're open carrying, you could also be the target of a criminal, somebody who knows you're the person with the weapon on you. Everybody else doesn't, maybe I go for you," said Michael Oster.
Hillsborough Sheriff David Gee says his deputies take 40 hours training in just keeping control of their weapons, and he's very concerned about the open carry law.
"Could you imagine", Gee asks, "a Gasparilla parade if only lets say five or 600 or a thousand people showed up with an open firearm, with all the drinking?"
A vote on the bills is expected in the next week or two in Tallahassee. Law enforcement lobbyists say they expect it to pass over their objections.
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http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/sheriffs-worried-over-bill-allowing-permit-holders-to-openly-carry-guns/1157792
The Sheriffs disappointed me with their rather ignorant comments.
I won't often open carry, but I would like the right to do so. Even more so, I would like to de-criminalize the accidental exposure of my gun.
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My thought on the Bill being worked on here in Florida is, When I am carrying concealed and my weapon accidently exposes itself, does this law relieve me of the worry of suddenly being arrested and becoming a Felon as the risk exists today?
If it does relieve me of that worry I am 100% behind it.
Chief
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I toally agree with the Chief, the law is good for basically one thing, accidental flash of a weapon.
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A lot of good common sense and wisdom spoken and shown in this thread.
It would be a good idea for the lawmakers to read it or even better attend a focus group of seasoned concealed carriers.
But, that would be like wishing for silver dollars falling from the sky.
They always have to turn it into a Charlie Foxtrot (cluster @#$%).
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My thought on the Bill being worked on here in Florida is, When I am carrying concealed and my weapon accidently exposes itself, does this law relieve me of the worry of suddenly being arrested and becoming a Felon as the risk exists today?
If it does relieve me of that worry I am 100% behind it.
Chief
Agree Chief, a number of other posts on here too that said it all very well. As a Florida resident myself, I would not open carry except when I have the Judge strapped on when out doing yard work or in the brush, but I like the idea of not worrying all the time if my gun was accidently exposed. I also hope, as some have mentioned, that the OC law would not be the eventual undoing of the CC laws.
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+1 Chief
I go out of my way to make sure my gun is concealed and doesn't print; but on rare occasions (depending on what I'm carrying and what I'm wearing), the handle peeks out to get a glimpse the world around it. I'd hate to loose my CCW permit - or worse - for that infraction.
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I did NOT know in Florida that if part of your Weapon was exposed you could lose your CCW, I spoke-Wrote before I knew this about Florida, I take back what I wrote, Florida Gun People (Give em HELL). ;D
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Ratzo, I have difficulty reading through and understanding all of the Florida statutes; but when I moved to Florida and took my umteenth firearms course, my instructor told us that if our gun shows even momentarily and it frightens a citizen, it could be interpreted as a "careless," and therefore improper, exhibition. And here in sunny FL, that is a misdemeanor.
Here's the statute (the emphasis is my own):
790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
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I do not think that momentary, accidental showing would result in punishment. For example, if I were to reach back to my wallet and my shirt lifted momentarily exposing the grips, the law would be hard pressed to prosecute. I believe the statute to exist for those who brandish or “show-off” having a weapon. That being said, there is always the clown who sees the weapon and makes an issue of it. Best to be very careful. In general, I think Florida has some friendly gun laws. I think I’ll stay here. :)
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Agreed, Toad; this would be an ancillary issue of a bigger problem.
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Sounds like a winner, Toad. I don't know too much about Florida law, but understand the reality of living where you want; do enjoy!
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I do not think that momentary, accidental showing would result in punishment. For example, if I were to reach back to my wallet and my shirt lifted momentarily exposing the grips, the law would be hard pressed to prosecute. I believe the statute to exist for those who brandish or “show-off” having a weapon.
Well said, Toad. And Florida is a gun friendly state (one reason I like it here). But there are counties in Florida run by Obamacrats. Need I say more? :)
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Much of the results of Exposing here in Florida is left to the Discression of the Local law enforcement people. They could call it "Brandishing" and it moves into felony territory, theycould arrest you and then drop the charges after investigating (Big pain). Firearms laws are tricky and subject to much interpretation. Massaad Ayoob has a lot of thoughts on this subject.
Chief
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I toally agree with the Chief, the law is good for basically one thing, accidental flash of a weapon.
That where 99% will use open carry. I don't picture many going around an upscale mall with a 1911 shoulder holster
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Open carry gun bill
amended in Florida
Senate
5:23 PM, Apr 27, 2011 | comments
Tallahassee, Florida - Florida senators
have amended a bill that aimed to allow
people to carry guns openly in Florida.
Under the amendment, open carry will still
be banned in the state. But legal gun
owners who accidentally expose their
concealed weapons will not face arrest
under the new version of the bill.
That was one of the NRA's main arguments
for an open-carry gun law. The group was
concerned that gun owners with concealed
weapons permits faced prosecution for
accidentally displaying their guns.
Police have adamantly opposed the open-
carry gun bill from the start, arguing it
would make Florida more dangerous.
But officers support the amended bill.
"It will allow people to carry firearms, for
instance, underneath a jacket and if they
inadvertently expose it, it will not subject
them to arrest," said Maj. Clyde Eisenberg
of the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office.
The House version of the bill does not
include the new amendment at this time
and it would allow people with concealed
weapons permits to carry firearms openly.
Dave Heller
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Senate loosens gun laws – muzzles docs, okays ‘open carry’ lite
by Dara Kam | April 28th, 2011
With NRA lobbyist Marion Hammer sitting in the front row of the public gallery, the Florida Senate easily approved three bills loosening gun laws, including a measure banning doctors from asking their patients about gun ownership.
Two other measures are now headed to Gov. Rick Scott, an NRA member and gun owner who has said he would sign them into law.
The “open carry” bill (HB 45), watered down yesterday, would protect concealed weapons permit owners from being prosecuted if their guns are accidentally exposed. Proponents of the measure say that current law could subject the inadvertent display of weapons to being charged with a felony.
The third (HB 155) would punish local officials with a fine for passing gun laws stricter than the state’s, already prohibited under state law.
Law enforcement officials opposed the open carry bill, saying it would make their jobs more dangerous.
And barring health care providers from asking safety questions about the presence of weapons in the household could endanger the lives of children and have a chilling effect on the doctor-patient relationship, pediatricians have argued.
Firearm injury is the leading cause of death for children and teens, said Senate Democratic Leader Nan Rich of Weston.
“Adolescents know about firearms. Children know about firearms and they know where they are. This Republican Party is a party of less government and this is the party that brings us more government intrusion that encroaches into the privacy of a doctor’s office and the doctor-patient relationship,” she said.
But Sen. Alan Hays, a retired dentist, said “it’s none of my business what kind of weapons if any” patients have in their homes.
“If it’s medically necessary you may inquire but otherwise stay out of the private business of your patient,” said Hays, R-Umatilla. The bill passed by a 27-10 vote.
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"Firearm injury is the leading cause of death for children and teens, said Senate Democratic Leader Nan Rich of Weston."
Yeah, and Santa Clause feeds his reindeer pickled chicken feet on Christmas morning. How in the world do these Democrats get away with inventing their own statistics?
In the USA, unintentional Injury is the leading cause of death of children; and at the top of the list of unintentional injuries is Motor Vehicle Accidents! Firearm accents are very near the bottom of the list. In age groups 5-9, for every one child killed in a firearm accident, 44 die in vehicular accidents. 11 die in drowning accidents, and 10 die in fires. - Here is my reference source: www.statisticstop10.com/Causes_of_Death_Kids.html
Motor vehicle injuries are the leading cause of death among children in the U.S. - NOT firearms.
Maybe that Democrat state senator should push for a law that would mandate docs to inquire about how many times a licensed driver in a household drove after having a few alcoholic beverages, went through a red light, did not come to a complete stop at a full-stop sign, habitually exceeds the speed limit by more than 5 MPH, and rode on tires that were badly worn.
Lying politicians serve no one well except for themselves and their own self-interests!