The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: C0untZer0 on December 12, 2014, 11:09:15 PM
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UP7p3fxgzE
I wish I had stuck with this ammo. I put Federal 147gr HSTs in my R9 and sheared the pin. Mt R9 used to cycle these things flawlessly...
They really look fantastic in this test.
-
How do you explain better penetration thru denim than without? Either the gel was not consistent or this was magic denim (assuming the pistol was allowed to cool between tests).
-
How do you explain better penetration thru denim than without? Either the gel was not consistent or this was magic denim (assuming the pistol was allowed to cool between tests).
That is what you would expect. The denim plugs the hollow point limiting expansion, so it penetrates further. Very common.
-
Makes sense, but the pics didn't really make a change in expansion clear to me...old eyes I guess.
-
John
Look at the picture showing all of the recovered bullets. Very consistent expansion. You can easily tell which ones shot through the denim.
Good test. I have never liked 147 gr bullets as they sometimes do not have enough velocity to expand and then they over penetrate.
-
I think they're great, even when they don't expand all the way they don't over-penetrate.
The big problem with this ammo is I can never find it for sale!
I keep 147gr HST in my CM9.
-
I have a good supply of older 124 Gold Dots which work fine in my R9, but have been buying HST a 124 when I can find it. Some of the recent posts about GD .32 on the Seecamp forum are scary.
-
Some of the recent posts about GD .32 on the Seecamp forum are scary.
You got me curious enough to check that out and what they weren't talking about was (to me) more scary than what they were talking about.
The first explanation that came to my mind (which was one they weren't talking about) is that the bullets on the new GD were either not seated quite as deeply as they should be, or that the shape of the bullet has changed and what was causing the round to chamber and then lock the slide forward was that the bullet was engaging the rifling when it chambered. That causes the bullet to get stuck and you have to pry it back to disengage the rifling so you can extract it. It's a combination of bullet ogive (shape) and OAL combined with the chambering and the amount of freebore in a particular firearm.
Normally you want some freebore so that the bullet gets started down the barrel before it engages the rifling - it has a bit of kinetic energy to help get it started in the rifling. If the bullet is touching the lands or jammed into the lands it has no kinetic energy and relies totally on chamber pressure to get it moving and that can result in excessively high chamber pressures. And danger. I cringed when I read tales of actually shooting these rounds before an effort was made to find out why they jammed and locked the slide.
I mention this specifically because as I recall, one of the "tricks" of the R9 is that it has a little extra freebore in the chambering - to give a good "running start" to the bullet to reduce chamber pressures and while a bullet shape and OAL that might jam a Seecamp might seem to be fine in an R9 - in reality it could reduce the freebore and result in high chamber pressures. Not a good thing and enough to make me seriously afraid of that bullet weight and manufacturer.
I suspect this could be more of an issue with 147gr than 125gr or 115gr - the higher bullet weight could well result in a bad combination. This could be what caused C0untZer0 to shear a pin in his R9.
-
I have been reloading for over 30 years and the problems they are having with the 32 Gold Dots probably has nothing to do with the bullet but with the bullet seating and crimping process.
The case mouth is flared to let the bullet start in. After the bullet is seated to the proper length, a "taper Crimp" is put on the case mouth which squeezes the brass case against the bullet jacket. If the case is longer than normal, or the case wall is thicker than normal, or the die is not set right, the process will push the case mouth too hard and form a bulge in it making the cartridge's OD too large to enter the chamber. The "bulge" can be so slight that you can barely see it and and still cause trouble.
That is just a guess of what is going on from my reloading experience.
-
I have been reloading for over 30 years and the problems they are having with the 32 Gold Dots probably has nothing to do with the bullet but with the bullet seating and crimping process.
I've been reloading for about a decade longer - long enough to not only understand precisely what you're talking about but long enough to have made a ton of 380 ACP, 9mm and 45 ACP rounds that had the exact problems you describe. They never fed worth a tinker's d**n but they never jammed the action of a pistol to the point where I couldn't open the slide - for the most part they failed to feed or failed to return to battery.
But the 32 ACP (the subject of the Seecamp forum posts) is a bit different in that while most auto rounds (380, 9mm and 45) headspace on the mouth of the case (which makes case length and crimp dimensions critical) the 32 headspaces not on the mouth but on the rim. And that changes the dimensions of the chamber that make the math fuzzy when it comes to this problem.
The 32 ACP case round is .680 long from rim to mouth. It's .358 dia at the rim, .338 at the base and .337 at the mouth. I assume there are tolerances (that were not on the drawing I found) but they are probably +.0000 / -.00xx - in other words these are the maximum dimensions. The 32 ACP chamber is .693 long (.013 longer than the case), .362 at the rim, .344 at the base and .339 at the mouth. There is a -.0000 / +.0040 tolerance. Assuming the smallest chamber, a case would have to be larger than .339 in order to jam - by perhaps .001 - call it .340. Such a case would probably get started into the chamber (chamber starts at .344) but I doubt it would ever go into battery. If it DID it would require some forcing - the point at which the tapered chamber would match a .340 case is about .135" out of battery and any case belled out larger that .340 would start jamming greater than .135 out of battery.
I think a round that starts jamming that far out of battery would be hard to miss yet the forum posts mention nothing about a problem going into battery - only a problem opening the slide after chambering one of these questionable rounds.
Regardless of which one of us is right, more right, or more wrong as to the exact mechanics of the problem these Seecamp owners are experiencing, we might be able to agree on one thing:
A round which chambers but needs to be pried out of the chamber with a screwdriver in order to open the action indicates a problem with that gun and that ammo, and before firing it in the gun they should be finding out exactly what's wrong.
-
The Seecamp also is a retarded blowback system so there is a "groove" machined in the chamber to keep the slide from opening early and this give another place for the "bulged" cartridge to get hung up in.
Without seeing the problem cartridges, we are all just guessing.
-
All of the above. And, incorrect crimp will cause incorrect or inconsistent pressures.
-
Thank you, gentlemen, for the technical reloading expertise and explanation. What astounds me is why would anyone carry such an anemic round for self-defense in the first place?
-
Well the FMJs penetrate to around 13" so if you poke a hole in the right organ it can save your life.
My biggest problem with 32 ACP is not the round but the guns that are available.
If the Kel-Tec P-32 had decent sites I would have purchased one already.
I always find something wrong with the guns.
-
So, what is the point if you can carry a 9mm or .380 with reported much improved reported ballistics from Precision One ammo, for example? Why would one need good sights on a 5-10 ft. encounter range?
-
I mostly carry my Rohrbaugh R9, but depending on weather and dress often have my LWS .32 as primary. At expected self defense ranges I can place rounds freehand in lethal areas predictably while realizing that a 32 is unlikely to put an aggressor on the ground before he can get off a shot....better than nothing. Remember the psychiatrist who put 3 rounds in the man who murdered a co-worker with his LWS .32...didn't kill the purp but discouraged him from further aggression.
Appreciate the expert ballistic info posted tho well beyond my meager capabilities. My old GD's work fine but I do believe I will be using more HST 124gr in the near future.
-
I understand the Seecamp lovers and also that any round can be lethal, including a .22LR. As mentioned previously here a friend of mine in his 20s was murdered with a single shot .25 placed between his eyes. All I am saying is that I consider the .380 to be a minimum for carry purposes. Some of the new .380 ammo made by Precision One has much better ballistics than the .32. Why go lower if it isn't necessary?
-
For the times when dress requires a truly tiny pistol the Seecamp is IMO the smallest quality pocket pistol out there, but in .380 it is too painful to shoot for me...follow-up shots are nearly impossible. Hence the role of the .32. All of the other reasonably trustworthy .380's out there are so large that you might as well carry the R9...as you say why go lower if it isn't necessary?
-
At the risk of being blasphemous on one of the high road forums in the gun world I suggest the Kel Tec P3AT as a better carry alternative than the LWS .32. At 8.3 oz. unloaded and 11.1 oz loaded with a locked breech design it is truly a lightweight and controllable, reliable .380. I bought one on the recommendation of my pistol smith although I was still somewhat dubious and thought it looked like it came out of a cracker jack box. To assuage my concerns he installed a new extractor, a hard chrome slide, and fluffed and buffed it. After many successful trips to the range with it I am now a converted believer, especially with the more effective .380 ammo now available. If one has the room there are also 8 round magazines available. I would not consider switching it to a .32 as a backup carry piece, no matter who makes it.
-
P3AT sounds like a nice piece. I had a Keltec PF9 a few years ago that had a terrible trigger pull and was a jam-Omatic even after a trip to the factory...traded it and have never considered a Keltec pistol since. Sounds like they may have improved although I agree they look like they come in crackerjack boxes and mine actually rattled when shaken.
-
I bought a Keltec P32 at a gun show when they first came out for under $200. I just bought it to see if it would really work. I had no problems at all with it and ran my own reloads through it 100% of the time.
When the P3AT came out I bought a used one for next to nothing. Ran reloads through it and had zero troubles, even with cast bullets.
I agree with you guys, it looks like Keltec tries to make ugly guns. I never understood that.
I really like Seecamps for what they are, but as far as protection, the LWS32 has to be in the "better than nothing" class with all the other choices we now have, My first carry weapon was a LWS32 and it was replaced with a Colt Pony Pocketlite as soon as they came out.
-
This debate (which took place in my skull at the time) ended me up with a CW380.
It has the exact footprint of the R9, but weighs in at 10 oz before mag and ammo
It's no R9, but it's a decent little pistol. I needed it when I was waiting for the R9 repairs.
I love the light weight. I just don't pocket carry well. I imagine if I was forced to I would consider the CW 380, or the SC. The Seecamp is tiny and beautiful. I think the .32 is pretty reliable too from what I've heard. My 380 self destructed in about 10 mags. Talk about carry much and shoot little.
I have a 380 and 32. That 380 is a handful. I hope the new mag extension helps. I MAY fire an entire mags worth of it does.
Maybe MRC can do some of his engineer Magic tricks and stack these or something. Anyway here is the data on the 3 pistols mentioned.
-
Thanks for the comparison photos. As most here know the primary reason for the LWS cherry bomb in your hand is the retarded blow back action as opposed to a locked breech.
-
Is that system named after the inventor?
Just kidding. I couldn't resist.
Their are some retarded blow back systems that aren't too bad to shoot aren't there? Isn't the sig 230/232, or am I wrong?
-
Yes, but at a weight of 18.5 oz. incl. magazine. and larger dimensions to spread the kick.
-
Overlays from the Seecamp Website
http://www.seecamp.com/overlays.htm
-
Seecamp is a very high quality firearm, without a doubt, and the legend will live on for its enthusiasts.
-
Here is a VERY early LWS380 I watched today but decided not to bid. This was in Larry's safe and the new owners sold it at auction.
The LWS380's really did not hit the street until 2004.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=457298369
-
Is that system named after the inventor?
Just kidding. I couldn't resist.
Their are some retarded blow back systems that aren't too bad to shoot aren't there? Isn't the sig 230/232, or am I wrong?
I would think the slide is heavy enough in conjunction with the spring that the 232 is straight blowback and does not need to be retarded. Is similar to the PPK.
The HK P7's retarded blowback system is very unique in my opinion.
-
Now, I recall that I was looking at the LWS .380 in 2004 when the R9 was introduced. I flipped for a couple of pups and never looked back. Our dear departed friend, Tom Watson, of Irish Guard Firearms, was also a Seecamp dealer and quietly eased me into the R9 decision when he described the LWS .380 recoil.
-
I got on the LWS380 preorder list in 2001 after seeing a write-up in a gun magazine. In late 2003 I was able to place the order and I received the 191st one sold in July of 2004. By that time I had a Colt Pony and a Pocket Nine and I never opened the box on the Seecamp.
I sold it in 2009 for $1800.
You probably remember back in the 90's that there was a 2 year wait for the LWS32's. Guys were snapping them up for $600 at the gun shows when MSRP was $375. I think that is right as I remember paying that for mine.
-
They were hot, indeed, and on the leading edge of the pocket carry trend. I don't recall the details as you do but I remember they were in great demand and short supply.
-
All things change. I just listed last week my NIB Seecamp .380 on GunBroker for $1450.00. It sold in 1 hr at full price. I have 2 new ones on order from Whalley at the $700's price. Why does one think that the old ones are worth double from the new ones?
-
Here is a VERY early LWS380 I watched today but decided not to bid. This was in Larry's safe and the new owners sold it at auction.
The LWS380's really did not hit the street until 2004.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=457298369
Wow!! That's amazing! $1850 😙 well one cool thing about the Seecamp 380 is that (like the R9 is the worlds smallest 9mm) it is the worlds smallest 380 auto pistol. Quite a unique gig.
-
All things change. I just listed last week my NIB Seecamp .380 on GunBroker for $1450.00. It sold in 1 hr at full price. I have 2 new ones on order from Whalley at the $700's price. Why does one think that the old ones are worth double from the new ones?
What I want to know is why the R9 story isn't the same? Why are they going close to what they always did and the seecamps are going for up to 2X more than they were selling for??
-
All things change. I just listed last week my NIB Seecamp .380 on GunBroker for $1450.00. It sold in 1 hr at full price. I have 2 new ones on order from Whalley at the $700's price. Why does one think that the old ones are worth double from the new ones?
There is a long wait for LWS380's right now. I know a guy who has been on the preorder list for 2 years right now. When did Whalley think you would get yours?
Also, maybe the "Milford, Ct" Seecamps will carry a certain premium like a Pre 64 Winchester. Who knows?
-
There is no doubt that the CT Seecamps will and are commanding a premium. The difference between them and the R9s are that there is no seamless succession plan that says "Pineville NC R9." Limbo does not command a premium yet.
-
Also, after checking, the LWS 25 launched in 1981 followed by the LWS 32 and then the .380 in 1999. They have been in production for a lot longer than the R9.
-
All things change. I just listed last week my NIB Seecamp .380 on GunBroker for $1450.00. It sold in 1 hr at full price. I have 2 new ones on order from Whalley at the $700's price. Why does one think that the old ones are worth double from the new ones?
What I want to know is why the R9 story isn't the same? Why are they going close to what they always did and the seecamps are going for up to 2X more than they were selling for??
That Seecamp that sold for $1850 was made in 1999, 4 years before the 380's hit the street.
If someone came up with a prototype R9 made 4 years before introduction to the public, it would command a good price I would assume.
Seecamps also have a lot wider audience than Rohrbaughs.
-
There is a long wait for LWS380's right now. I know a guy who has been on the preorder list for 2 years right now. When did Whalley think you would get yours?
I was told that they would be set up to mfg. the .380s by 1/1/15. The .32s are already hitting dealers now. There are going to be a lot of Seecamps hitting the shelves.
-
No doubt about the wider following; also, the LWS .32 and .380 can be sold in world markets whereas the 9mm is restricted for sale in many countries because it is a "military caliber."
-
I was told that they would be set up to mfg. the .380s by 1/1/15. The .32s are already hitting dealers now. There are going to be a lot of Seecamps hitting the shelves.
The new owners are still working off of Larry's old backlog. The 380 is not an easy gun to build and I would guess there is a 12+ month wait which will keep the prices up.
I really think that production will stay low on the Seecamps, That has been a proven marketing tool for the company in my opinion.
-
Overlays from the Seecamp Website
http://www.seecamp.com/overlays.htm
I just saw this. Thanks MRC. This is why I went and shelled out the cash for a couple seecamps. Amazing LITTLE pistol. Who cares if it hurts to run 380? It's still amazing. I did receive a mag extension. We'll see how it works.
I hope my Moe $30 special wasn't made by Larry or Curly. Fingers crossed.
-
I care that it hurts!
Neat little gun but not for me.
-
Lol. It's for deep deep concealment (speedo). It's cool that it does what no other auto loader in its class can do is what I guess I appreciate. I don't carry mine but I will try out the moe special and see what it's all about. Again. And I'll probably swear off of it. Again. 😬
-
The extensions help and grip it high and as tight as you can. Put a bandaid on your trigger finger to pad that.
I decided that if I have to put a bandaid on, leave it in the safe,
Here is some pics of mine.
-
Now, that is a beautiful safe queen. Did Bryce make the extension? He made some for the R9s before Yankee.
-
Wow. That's a beauty MRC.
-
Now, that is a beautiful safe queen. Did Bryce make the extension? He made some for the R9s before Yankee.
The extension came from a guy on the Seecamp Forum who went by JeffSSig. If I remember right he had some health problems and he just disappeared.
Michael Gouse did the engraving and like most engraved pistols, it looks a lot better in person. They are hard to take good pictures of.