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Why stuff a 300 pound girl in a tiny bikini? Why stuff a 9mm in a tiny pistol. I would be happy to see a Colt Pony, or Rorhbaugh in a 32, and long as it was super dependable. You are shooting at 6 feet or less, and I don't want to see a stovepipe. And I don't want to see any 300 pounders in a thong.
I would be happy with a 22 if they were more dependable.
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Lucky for you, the Kel-Tec P-32 is available. It's one of my favorite pocket pistols.
Colt Pony or Rohrbaugh in .32 acp = North American Arms Guardian in .32 acp. Also currently in production.
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I might also add that the Kahr .380 is a very pocketable piece that is actually reliable (with the right ammo) and great shooting. .380 Gives a more ballistic capability and comes +p and is really smooth shooter in some platforms.
I have a .32 Seecamp. It's not terrible.
LJutic, always enjoy reading your comments.
What do you find in the difference between .32 and .380 +p in your gel tests fired out of small pocket pistols?
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What do you find in the difference between .32 and .380 +p in your gel tests fired out of small pocket pistols?
I've yet to find a 380 +P HP that penetrates "enough". Standard pressure JHPs are even worse for penetration. Standard pressure "range grade" fmj with flat points seem to consistently tumble and penetrate between 12" and 18" from the Kahr P380 with 2.5" barrel.
I pick the fastest FMJ available for the .32 Auto. Currently it's S&B 71 grain. If Fiocchi ever gets back to their old velocities, I may switch. My S&B FMJ testing showed 14" or less penetration from the P-32.
I need to get back to the mouse guns at some point, but right now I'm enamored with 10mm and also on a mission to find a 38 Special +P that will pass the denim test from my Ruger LCR.
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Right now I carry a Seecamp 32, a nice small safe gun. The ammo is a pain to find, and expensive. The other tiny gun is a Baby Browning, (PSA) but I just find striker-fired in my pocket an worrisome proposition.
http://www.seecamp.com/overlays.htm
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Rohrbaugh in .32 acp = North American Arms Guardian in .32 acp. Also currently in production.
Except those teeny tiny sights.
I would be tempted to get an R9 in .32 if they ever made one, but why carry 13.5 ounces of metal in my pocket for a gun that shoots the 32 ACP ?
If Kel-Tec put better sights on their P-32 I would have purchased one by now.
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A Colt Pony/Rohrbaugh in 32 ACP
* There would be minimum recoil
* They become more dependable
* You can get Fiochhi 32s for $15 a box of 50
So now you can go out and shoot 250 rounds, and gain confidence in reliability of the gun. Shooting these 9mm micros needs special ammo $$. It's like having sights on Self Defense guns, when average distance is 6 feet or less.
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To each his own but in all of my readings and experience I have not heard of anyone who suggests a 32 ACP weapon for primary defensive carry; however, like a .22lr or WMR it is better than nothing except when all it does is to anger the opponent.
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I can't use a firearm without sights.
I would even consider using a laser except that they're illegal in Chicago.
Some 32 ACP FMJs penetrate past 12" through 4 layers of denim. They're not making 70-caliber sized holes, but they have enough oooomph to penetrate vital organs.
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I think that most would agree, the most common "self-defense distances" are between 5-15 feet. Let's suppose for now that is
correct...By the time the pistol could be cleared of the holster, pocket, purse, jacket...whatever and brought upward to a position
where the sights could be used and aligned on a moving target and a round fired, the attacker has had more than enough time to
react to the presence of the gun and have an incredible advantage over the victim...one that cannot be overcome. The attacker is
not going to wait for you to get into YOUR chosen position. That would be nice...but it ain't gonna happen.
If you feel you MUST have sights on a pocket pistol then you are not using the pistol the way it was intended. Accurate point shooting is the solution to the situation described above. I've heard the practice for this called by many names...Bill Drill...belly shots...quick draw...even "pocket shooting." Stand 5 ft. from a full man sized target with your hand properly gripping your pistol. Focus your eyes on a small spot just below where the breast bone would be. On signal, pull your pistol slowly and fire 1 round at that spot. DO NOT MOVE THE PISTOL ABOVE YOUR BELT. Repeat the drill SLOWLY increasing the speed. Again...keep the pistol below your waist. Learn to keep your elbow close & tight to your body and rotate the pistol upward to the target.
I think you'll be surprised at how quickly you can pick out different spots with your eyes and HIT them accurately.
I realize ammo is expensive, so you might want to consider trying my personal practice method:
It doesn't matter if you have kids, pets, wife...they all respond similarly to small squirt guns. The best are cats although grandkids are a close second. ;D
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To each his own but in all of my readings and experience I have not heard of anyone who suggests a 32 ACP weapon for primary defensive carry; however, like a .22lr or WMR it is better than nothing except when all it does is to anger the opponent.
Naturally a 9mm is better than a 32, but it's tough to make Micro Pistols super reliable in 9mm. Then you get the special ammo crap, which is hard to find and $$$. Seecamp 32s like Speer Gold dots - $35 for twenty bullets
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A polite gangsta should 'Hold Still' while I take my stance and aim
(http://thehiphopista.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/2pac.jpg)
I think I may just 'Pull and shoot'
(http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/03/17/1281034_01_seecamp_32_w_extras__640.jpg)
I would prefer my 'Car Gun' in my back belt
(http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/browning-hi-power1.jpg)
where the sights could be used and aligned on a moving target and a round fired, the attacker has had more than enough time to react to the presence of the gun and have an incredible advantage over the victim...one that cannot be overcome. The attacker is not going to wait for you to get into YOUR chosen position.
I doubt 'dis brudder' will wait on you sighting in. I want my gun out and begins to 'Air-rate' him. What I don't want is a gun jamming. My other self defense gun is a Browning HP, sights removed, and slide stop filed. All the gun does is fire 15 rounds of FMJ - $15 a box Fiocchi Ammunition. I have shot 1000 rounds.
Sights, lasers, weaver stance, two handed grip, clearing jams, - "No thanks". Whatever you do has to be automatic. And situational awareness means you avoid where he is preying. If he shows at the gas pumps, then you get behind the pump. But above all, the last thing you need is a finicky gun.
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To each his own but in all of my readings and experience I have not heard of anyone who suggests a 32 ACP weapon for primary defensive carry; however, like a .22lr or WMR it is better than nothing except when all it does is to anger the opponent.
Naturally a 9mm is better than a 32, but it's tough to make Micro Pistols super reliable in 9mm. Then you get the special ammo crap, which is hard to find and $$$. Seecamp 32s like Speer Gold dots - $35 for twenty bullets.
With all the very good Micro Nines and 380's out there, I can see no reason that anyone would consider a 32 ACP pistol for primary carry or even backup for that matter.
I have a R9 which is flawless, 2 Solos that have been flawless, a PM9 and P380 that have been flawless and a Boberg that has never failed me. They just are not finicky about ammo as you contend. They just do not like the cheap Russian stuff the guys try to feed them.
As far as cost goes, I am able to get very high quality LE, self defense type ammo all the time now for under $30 for 50 rounds.
I just do not see any need for a 32 anymore.
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Mr MRC
I have a Ruger LC9, and it does eat any ammo, and recoil is tolerable. It's DA, but a tad big for pocket carry. As for a Solo, or a Khar, I am leery of striker-fired guns. But, I am not arguing that 32s are as good as 9mm. My point is that real Micros/pocket guns (Seecamp and Baby Browning) will run better on smaller caliber rounds.
I just prefer a gun that I can put 500 rounds down range, get familiar with, have a decent recoil, learn the dependability of. The other thing is the question of sights in a fast acting, close up encounter. I think the Rorhbaugh, and Colt Pony, are gorgeous guns. My Seecamp is $1.50 a bullet (500 x $1.50 = $750), and your Rohrbaugh is $.50 a round ($250 for 500). I would love a rohrbaugh, if I could afford it.
I looked at a Kel Tec, but talked to the factory rep and he said they prefer $40 a box Win Silvertips - talk about feeding a pig Filet Mignon. From a Rohrbaugh to a Kel Tec - maybe I am bipolar, and having an episode ...
:)
http://www.seecamp.com/overlays.htm
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Everyone has different likes and dislikes I guess. I actually prefer striker fired pistols as I have found them to be more reliable than the hammer fired pistols I own. (NO light hits)
I caution you not to put too much emphasis on size when it is performance that we are after. While my R9 is 100% reliable so far, I never carry it. I find that the Solo (my favorite), the PM9, and the Boberg are all easier for me to get off 7 rounds with accuracy and speed. My grip is just not strong enough any more to keep the smaller R9 under control during rapid fire.
I will gladly trade the extra weight and size for the extra performance. JMO
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Size & carry-ability
I am in South Fl and live in cargo shorts, if I lived in Nome Alaska, it would be different viewpoint. The Seecamp 32 because of size, dependability, safety factors (double strike capabilities, mag safety, etc) is in a class by itself. The cons are 'Ammo'.
All these guns are 'ammo sensitive', and that's a "fact of life". All guns go thru a phase - in 1985 the .380 Colt Pony was before it's time, now 2006 , it's cousin, the Rorhbaugh is a cult thing. Right gun at right time.
I'd still like to see a mini colt pony eat 25 or 32 acp, cheap and dependable, right out of the box. As for your present R9. I would love to see it shoot a 22 TCM
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"Ammo" is a big con; that is one good reason among many others to stay with 9mm. There are many options other than the R9 and there will be more in the future.
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"Ammo" is a big con; that is one good reason among many others to stay with 9mm. There are many options other than the R9 and there will be more in the future.
I got a 32, a 380, a 763 (broomhandle) and all the rest are 9mm. That different ammo is a pain. The specialized ammo (Seecamp and Mauser) is a real pain. The seecamp is every day carry, and the mauser doesn't get shot much, so they are tolerable.
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Try the cheap and reliable (with the right self defense ammo) and good sights and .380 +p rated and light as your Seecamp and excellent trigger and more user friendly than the Seecamp all the way around kahr cw.380.
I paid $250 for mines.
You can absolutely dump a mag on target in a hurry.
I have a Seecamp .32 and .380. I would actually prefer the .32 over the .380 in the Seecamp, but the kahr .380 is a dream to shoot comparatively.
I would prefer 9, but until my r9 gets fixed I don't have a better pocket gun than the kahr .380. The solo is a tad too big for my pockets.
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I started carrying with a LWS32 and that was it until the Colt Pony came out. A good pistol with a bad trigger and the fear of light hits was always in the back of my mind.
Next came the Colt Pocket Nine. Good pistol with a bad trigger and again I had the fear of light hits. It seemed too large at first, but I have learned to just put it in your pocket and leave it there and in a couple of days you don't even notice it.
After trying about everything I am stuck on the Solo and it works for me. If dress does not allow me to carry the Solo, I go to the P380 which is as easy to carry, as reliable, and as accurate as any carry gun I have owned.
I would not even consider a LWS 380 for carry. Too many better choices.
I agree with tracker, 9mm is the way to go with pocket carry if you can shoot it accurately, shoot it accurately with speed, and conceal it.
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Point well put IMO.
No experience with the colt products, but not wild about the LWS 32/380 and love the solo and lovethe kahr CW 380 which I understand is basically a P380 without some of the posh features.
I think your judgement is pretty spot on IMO MRC.
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The Khar 380 sounds interesting. Dependability, and safety, are my major concerns. When I hear that crap about "Ammo sensitive", I just cringe. And then you got 14 months of an ammo shortage (even 22s were hard to find). I went out and bought a S&W snubnose, figuring it has to be super dependable - guess what, it had a short firing pin, and had to go back to the factory.
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The Khar 380 sounds interesting. Dependability, and safety, are my major concerns. When I hear that crap about "Ammo sensitive", I just cringe. And then you got 14 months of an ammo shortage (even 22s were hard to find). I went out and bought a S&W snubnose, figuring it has to be super dependable - guess what, it had a short firing pin, and had to go back to the factory.
Mr skunk
I would highly recommend that you try the Kahr CW380. I have a P380 but from all reports that I have read the CW does the same job at a lower price.
The little Kahrs are accurate, reliable, fun to shoot and easy to carry. The P380 is a hard gun for me to put down at the range as it is really fun to shoot.
I know that you have a thing about striker fired guns which I really do not understand but try the Kahr and you might change your mind.
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Not to stir up a hornet's nest in a stable of blue blood gun aficionados but I have found the second generation P-3AT to be quite reliable and dependable; so much so that I installed a hard chrome slide on it. Kel-Tec customer service is very responsive and they will generally send you free parts in the unlikely event you need them.
http://www.thektog.org/forum/f87/1st-vs-2nd-generation-p3at-197491/
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'If do glove don't fit, then you must acquits'
(http://www.eurweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/oj_glove2012-med-wide.jpg)
Not to stir up a hornet's nest in a stable of blue blood gun aficionados but I have found the second generation P3AT to be quite reliable and dependable;
A big part of these 'Nuevo Pistolas' is ammo. I want to shoot cheap 32 ball ammo, $15 a box. I emailed KelTec and they told me their 32 preferred $40 a box Win Silvertips. The other thing is size, and that's where the Seecamp stands out. All I can really talk about is the guns I have owned. The Seecamp is super safe, and small - but a ammo sensitive b*tch. My next favorite is a Sig 232 (PPK type). And it's how you carry - In South Fla it's cargo shorts.
At the end of the day - It's all about how dependable the gun is.
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Not to stir up a hornet's nest in a stable of blue blood gun aficionados but I have found the second generation P-3AT to be quite reliable and dependable; so much so that I installed a hard chrome slide on it. Kel-Tec customer service is very responsive and they will generally send you free parts in the unlikely event you need them.
http://www.thektog.org/forum/f87/1st-vs-2nd-generation-p3at-197491/
I have no experience with the 2nd generation Kel Tecs but I do own a P32 and a P3AT of the old style. I bought the P32 at a Gun Show for under $200 out the door just to see if it would work. I was pleasantly surprised as it shot everything I loaded into it. That was mostly my own reloads back then. The same for the P3AT. Very utilitarian type pistols that serve the purpose for what they were made.
I found them both very reliable, just junky looking.
I presently have a Kel Tec KSG and find it to be easy to shoot and it works great. I have had zero problems with it, just a little pricey in my opinion for what you get.
The KSG is the only firearm I have ever owned that allows you to load a full pound of lead at one time
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The KSG is the only Keltech I presently own and find it to be reliable and punishing. Wouldn't want to receive the real punishment it delivers though.
I like some of the keltech designs. Crude but effective.
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(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N7EBNXiTXeA/T_8Lvch_0sI/AAAAAAAABpQ/CKSIPtxPyNU/s320/hickok.jpg)
Pull, point, and shoot
If a Bruther, or Jose, or a Road-Rager, or Zimmerman, or Klebold from Columbine, or 'Popcorn Killer', or whatever mugger or nutcase is out there, you need a sure steady hand. That is not the time for fumbling with safeties, or a weaver stance, or a 2 second aim, ....... "No, no, no" .... Pull and shoot.
And when you are in the 7/11, or ATM, or walking in a late night parking lot, it's best to be aware. Look at Dillinger, or Wild Bill Hickcock, or Jesse James, - their 'Situational Awareness' wasn't there. It all happens fast and the last thing you need is a Jam-A-Matic. You need to be at the range, and just being repetitive. It would be nice if there was a facility that offered real life scenarios, versus booths at the range.
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Contact Gunsite; they will be happy to help:
http://www.gunsite.com/main/course-calendars/2014-course-schedule/
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Contact Gunsite; they will be happy to help:
http://www.gunsite.com/main/course-calendars/2014-course-schedule/
I am debating whether to spend $8 to go to local gun show. Tough to drop $2500 on airfare, hotels, etc. But their course prices seem reasonable, if you lived there. Of course when you add up what you spent on guns, ammo, ranges, etc - it does make sense
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You need to be at the range, and just being repetitive. It would be nice if there was a facility that offered real life scenarios, versus booths at the range.
[/quote]
Google force on force training and your nearest major city name next to you.
I have found a trainer that served in Afghanistan as well as a trainer of police officers. He has proven to be very helpful.
We typically train at an outdoor range that has 5 steel targets that allows you to move freely, work out of the holster etc. It's been absolutely revolutionary for me. Beats standing in one spot and shooting holes in paper. Both he and my Marshall buddy say that's about the worst thing you can do to yourself when training for a gunfight. You need to get off the X and not get shot. Even more important than shooting the bad guy don't get shot. Well standing there with tunnel vision and trying to make a hole in a bullseye can be bad muscle memory obviously.
Hope you can find something like that in FL
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We typically train at an outdoor range that has 5 steel targets that allows you to move freely, work out of the holster etc. It's been absolutely revolutionary for me.
Ain't that the truth. Get that gun out and start shooting. In a standard situation the other party will be 'shucking, and moon dancing'. To watch guys at a range is comical, 2 second aiming, with the two hands, and special stances. In real life, the predator will be in twos, and come out of nowhere. All I get out of the range is some practice, and seeing dependability.
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As surprising as it may seem the majority of law enforcement officers only shoot when they qualify each year and rarely clean their weapons. The good news is that the perpetrators are even less adept so any time you spend on the range and/or in tactical training places you well ahead of the opposition. Of course, special units like SWAT teams are well trained and current.