The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh Accessories => Topic started by: billib on June 24, 2012, 06:32:25 AM
-
Lasers aren't Rocket Science, at least not any more.
I paid $15.00 with free shipping for the Generic
Trigger Guard Laser you see below. Marvel at how
small the Laser Inner Brass Housing is. Most of its size
appears to be the Focus Lens (which I surmise could be
made much smaller). BTW, its also much brighter than
the $250.00 Glock Laser which is what I had paid about
10 years ago.
Notice how small the three stacked batteries in the green
sleeve are. How many of you believe, like I do that the
Laser could be made to (easily) replace the Rohrbaugh's
Guide Rod? I think a home could also be made for the
batteries. What about smaller Hearing Aid Batteries
like the ones currently used in Guide Rod Lasers?
Also, in the photo I state that the Brass Housing "is the
Actual Laser". Its not, its the Brass Housing for the Laser.
The Brass Housing holds the Laser and the Lens. The Lens
could be made smaller and the whole thing housed within
a new Laser Guid Rod. The biggest problems have now been
solved. Size and price. Theirs only one real remaining problem.
How does one turn it on and off?
The next step is to look at all of the currently available Guide
Rod Lasers and see which ones would be a good candidate for
a Machinist-Gun Smith to alter into a Rohrbaugh Guide Rod.
How would "YOU" solve the On-Off Conundrum? Thoughts,
opinions......musings?
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7107/7430945224_c9a07abe57_z.jpg)
.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7138/7430945514_4509b3e157_z.jpg)
-
More Photos:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7250/7437293252_aea34dcf5d_z.jpg)
.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7262/7437293476_fd17c7f9b4_z.jpg)
.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7271/7437293722_4374c4df18_z.jpg)
.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5339/7437293916_6ac641ff58_z.jpg)
.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7278/7437294064_c3f09ea604_z.jpg)
.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7136/7437296128_ced096cab2_z.jpg)
-
Now that is getting more interesting all the time.
-
I'm not educated enough to design it or
talented enough to build it but you can
see it doesn't look like that big of a deal
to do so.
Richard, How would you suggest it be
turned off and on? Remember, it needs
to be a drop-in Laser. No gunsmithing.
Since that Spring Plug Thingy sticks
out of the front of the PUP slightly,
from under the barrel, possibly a
push button switch or a switch that
works like an elevator switch could
be used in that location surrounding
the Lasers Lens.
This appears to be a solvable problem.
Someone with the talent simply needs
to do so, for example, the Brothers Rohr.
A company that builds lasers won't do it
because the market isn't big enough.
Someone else will need to step up.
Its sad how little love our PUP gets!!!
-
Billib,
Just wanted to welcome you to the forum, I can tell you will fit in well around here and have enjoyed reading your posts over the past week or so. As for the guide rod laser idea, I like it a lot and have one in my Glock. The R9 would be a challenge but I agree not impossible, Ill try to help brainstorm an on/off mechanism.
-Ryan
-
* * *
Richard, How would you suggest it be
turned off and on? Remember, it needs
to be a drop-in Laser. No gunsmithing.
Since that Spring Plug Thingy sticks
out of the front of the PUP slightly,
from under the barrel, possibly a
push button switch or a switch that
works like an elevator switch could
be used in that location surrounding
the Lasers Lens.
* * *
Bill:
I think you are correct that a switch mounted somehow on the outer face of the laser's housing would be the answer. Since a push-button switch would appear susceptible to being activated by holstering the pistol, a sliding switch on the bottom of the face might work.
It would also appear that smaller batteries, such as those used in hearing aids, would be required, as well as some adaptation of the recoil spring.
All in all, however, this concept would appear to be feasible.
As Mr. Spock might say, "Very interesting!"
-
BlueC2, thank you for the welcome, I think
your right, this is a nice welcoming forum.
As far as the laser.........I'm going to speak
with a machinist in a week or two about
whats involved in making a hollow guide rod
for the PUP.
Richard, your right, everything appears to
be easily (for the right person) doable EXCEPT
for the damn on-off switch.
-
Very interesting. The obvious problem with the switch on the front outer housing is the proximity to the barrel and the undesireability of putting any digit near the barrel under stress.
Some far fetched solutions...but just spitballing... The laser turns on for a short period of time when the gun is placed in a horizonal orientation? The laser stays on all the time (but is not visible when holstered), if batter life made that possible?
I'm not coming up with a good drop-in solution.
-
When I read the Reviews on the small Lasers
that use tiny Hearing Aid batteries, the Run
Time is typically 15 minutes to an hour. That
would suggest an On/Off switch is needed.
Also, if you look at how the PUP's Guide Rod
functions it wouldn't work by simply tacking
a Laser on the front. At least thats the way it
appears to me.
That would suggest a complete Guide Rod
redesign. Again, shouldn't be a big deal for
the Brothers Rohr.
-
Before you spend too much money on the guide rod laser you may want to see if Lasermax has that intellectual property all locked up. I'm assuming they do since their products are expensive and there is no cheaper alternative guide rod laser competitor. If that is the case we may have to try to get Lasermax to make a device for the R9.
-
LaserMax's marketing materials seem to indicate that the switching mechanism is patented -- which seems to be the hardest part. It would be worth a review of their patents to see if the guiderod laser itself is patented.
-
The Patent on the Guide Rod has run out.
The Patent on the Laser has also run out.
A Laser Guide Rod isn't (in my lay opinion)
something that is patentable. The Weed
Eater (or Weed Wacker I don't remember
which) was ruled NOT Patentable. If the effin'
Weed Eater COULDN'T be patented a Laser
Guide Rod won't be either.
I think thats exactly why they don't exist.
Once a company does all of the R&D on
perfecting a workable Guide Rod Laser
anyone can simply steal it because it isn't
theft. Its in the Public Domain.
BTW, the Weed Eater was ruled by a Patent
Judge to be "OBVIOUS". An OBVIOUS Invention
can't be patented.
-
bill,
Glad to hear there is room to operate with respect to the guild rod laser IP. I only brought potential IP up because I would not want to see you or anyone else on this forum invest significant time and money only to find out you cant sell them or get hit with a lawsuit. If the guide rod laser patents have expired that is good news and will make this sort of project much easier.
-
Most people don't understand how patents work.
My father was an inventor and held several patents.
He held the patent on a Xerox style copy machine
over 16 or 17 years before Xerox introduced the first
copy machine to the market. He held several patents
that ended up in the first space capsule. Its funny, the
government just takes whatever inventions they want
and don't usually compensate the creator.
Anyway, most modern patents aren't worth the paper
they're printed on because they're obvious. The catch
is, larger corporations have deep pockets and will sue
even though they aren't likely to prevail. Most little
guys can't afford to defend themselves even when
they're right. Thats one of the problems with this country.
Anyone can sue anybody over anything. If you loose
you don't usually have to pay the other guys court costs.
So the incentive is for the BIG GUY to bully the little guy.
A corporation can sue you over a patent infringement
real or imagined and you are obligated to defend yourself.
Most little guys can't afford to defend themselves.........
.......they lose.
Another thing, if I successfully create a workable Guide
Rod Laser, I'm not going to reproduce it or manufacture
them. I'll have one. You won't. And lastly, I'm a little old
cripple man in a wheel chair. A corporation suing me would
be a public nightmare and likely would't play well in the press.
No matter how I look at it, theirs no down side for me. Well,
money and time I can't get back if I (likely) fail. As long as its
interesting an fun then I'm ok with it.
-
You are right in that if you are just making it for yourself even if it directly infringes on someones patent they can't sue you. You would have to be selling them trying to profit from their IP.
-
I too assumed you would have some interest in selling them. That not being the case, my interest level in the project has significantly declined! ;)
-
DDGator fair enough. I'm a little guy. I couldn't
afford to produce them. I don't think this is the
same as machining some number of Magazine
Extensions. Not much investment or liability
their. A Guide Rod Laser is significantly different.
At least in my opinion.
Also, I think the point that DDGator made and was
missed was a valid one. He wasn't suggesting that
making a Guide Rod Laser was a patent problem but
that the SWITCH was. I think he's right on that point.
Making a Guide Rod Laser for the PUP should't be
that big of a deal for a firearm designer. You know,
like the Brothers Rohr. The Guide Rod clearly needs
to be redesigned. Simply sticking a little laser on the
end won't work on the current Guide Rod design.
Sadly, the 45 probably takes up most of the Brother
Rohr's time. This is way down on their To-Do List if
its their at all.
I'm probably one of the few thats interested in one.
If I could Bankroll the design and manufacture it
it would have a Green Daylight Laser. Not a Red one.
Right now I'm looking at Titanium tubes and rods that
may be suitable. Before I buy any I must redesign the
current Guide Rod first in my head (and I have a tiny
brain) then on paper.
-
Still sounds like an interesting idea -- I was being somewhat fascetious. :D
I would love to see Crimson Trace some out with a Lasergrip -- but the Rohrbaugh sales numbers wouldn't justify the R&D costs.
-
I was checking out the Patent on the PUP
to see if their were any potential problems
reproducing the Guide Rod. It (the Guide
Rod) isn't described well enough to have it
protected (covered) with the Patent on the PUP.
Heres the link:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6070512.PN.&OS=PN/6070512&RS=PN/6070512 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6070512.PN.&OS=PN/6070512&RS=PN/6070512)
Heres the Image, give it time to load:
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=06070512&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-adv.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526d%3DPALL%2526S1%3D06070512%2526OS%3DPN%2F06070512%2526RS%3DPN%2F06070512&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page (http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=06070512&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-adv.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526d%3DPALL%2526S1%3D06070512%2526OS%3DPN%2F06070512%2526RS%3DPN%2F06070512&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page)
The only potential problem would be reproducing a
Crimson Trace "style" switch. Other than that.......
..........don't see any problems.........except actually
making it. HA! HA! HA!
-
I found Crimson Trace holds 21 Patents on
various Lasers for guns. Couldn't find any
for the On/Off Switch. That doesn't mean
someone else doesn't hold a Patent on
the Switch, though.
Oops...........a switch:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22Crimson+Trace%22&OS=%22Crimson+Trace%22&RS=%22Crimson+Trace%22 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22Crimson+Trace%22&OS=%22Crimson+Trace%22&RS=%22Crimson+Trace%22)
-
Well, Daylight Visible (Green) Lasers
are now affordable. I picked one for
a whopping $5.81 with free shipping.
The remaining problem is powering
them. My Laser requires two AAA
batteries. Of course one 3volt
Lithium should work fine (better).
A 3volt Lithium wouldn't fit in the
Pup's Guide Rod position though.
We're still sneaking up on a
solution for those who would like
a Daylight Visible Laser that replaces
the Guide Rod.
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7900/img2703qc.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/img2703qc.jpg/)
I was playing with it yesterday after
I received it. Its clearly visible in the
sunshine from a reasonable distance.
Stay tuned!
Uploaded with ImageShack
-
Well it looks like you are on a mission.
Good Luck in your Quest. :)
-
I'm the GM and manufacturing engineer of a small machine shop. Assuming there's enough available space for the laser, batts, and switching mechanism, I see no reason why I couldn't easily make a modified guide rod. I also have Solidworks 3D design software, so I could design it and verify the design and function digitally before cutting the first chip. The first problem is, given our overhead burden rate, unless someone ordered a bunch of them, they would be very expensive, as I'd have to devote time to CNC programming, setup, etc.
Having said all that, I hate to dampen hopes, but I have serious doubts that this would work. Even though the tiny "working" components of the laser appear to be small enough in diameter to fit in the available space below the barrel, you have to consider that there needs to be sufficient wall thickness between the inside diameter of the guide rod (which must be large enough to contain the laser mechanism and batts) and the guide rod outside diameter, to handle the loads exerted on the rod during firing. The fact the recoil spring is having to do so much work due to the high recoil forces relative to the low slide mass (as evidenced by the 200 round max spring life recommendation) tells me the guide rod must have high compressive, tensile, and yield strength and stress crack propagation resistance, all of which does not favor a small diameter, thin walled tube. So the remedy would be to increase the o.d. of the rod to increase wall thickness, which would then require a larger diameter spring of the correct spring resistance... and there's just not much room in the available space between the barrel and the frame to begin with.
Then, assuming that hurdle was conquered, one would have to figure out how and where to contain the batteries and how to design the rod assy so it easily disassembles to access the batteries to replace as needed... which means not only would the hollow rod have a thin wall, but it would have to be a multi-piece design in order to access the batt compartment, which implies using threads or other locking mechanism in an already thin wall. This introduces additional demands on available wall thickness and complexity of a part that by necessity has to be small.
Then, there's the aforementioned switching problem. The available space is already limited, and unlike the full sized pistols the Lasermax rods are designed for, there is no external levers or other access points on the exterior of the R9 to retrofit a switch, without involving milling or drilling a switch containment or access feature somewhere on the frame, where there's precious little real estate. Right off the top of my head, the only practical way of turning on the laser is by somehow designing the switch to activate when it contacts a stop as you rack the slide, and maybe turn off by itself with a timed electronic circuit. Or, maybe the switch could be contained somewhere in the mag well and activated via an external button on the right side grip panel. ????
I just don't see how this could work without completely redesigning the gun to accommodate it. I certainly don't want to be pessimistic, as I'd love to have a guide rod laser for my R9 too. I'm simply thinking out loud based on what I've learned from my career in manufacturing. If anyone has any brilliant revelations on how to overcome these hurdles, I'm all ears and would certainly be willing to help.
-
Hi T-Man, thanks for your input! All excellent points
and observations. I think that Titanium could be used
to make the Guide Rod so wall thickness probably isn't
an issue. Switching on the Laser could probably be
solved as well. The BIG issue for me would be powering
a GREEN daylight laser. Right now small enough batteries
that would fit inside of a Guide Rod wouldn't last very
long. That kinda' defeats the purpose of a sophisticated
sighting system. I think if it can only be counted on to
work at the Range with fresh batteries, then its a toy.
I don't consider guns to be toys.....fun, sure, toy....never!
Again, THANK YOU for such valuable input! I haven't
given up on my little Pup Laser Project but between
you, me and a fence post.........it'll probably be nothing
more than a oddity only suitable for the Range. In the
future.......I suspect many guns will have daylight Lasers
as an option when the Battery issue is solved.
-
Crimson Trace has just introduced a series
of Green Lasers for popular firearms.
http://www.crimsontrace.com/products/type/green-lasers (http://www.crimsontrace.com/products/type/green-lasers)