The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: twostar on September 04, 2006, 10:44:04 PM
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Does anyone have real world experience with this type of frangible ammo in the R9? Ballistically it seems ideal. Recoil is reduced due to the low bullet weight. There must be a down side other than the high cost.
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Twostar:
While Glaser's 9mm Makarov ammunition is standard pressure, their 9mm Luger rounds are +P. As you know, the Rohrbaugh is not recommended for +P ammo. I'll admit to having run a few Glasers through my R9 with no problems, but only a few. My currently preferred carry load is to have a MagSafe in the chamber and Gold Dots in the magazine.
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You could be right but, Kel-Tec says not t o shoot MagSafe in their .380 but Glaser is OK. I "think" the Glaser pressure is lower but, again, not sure. That was what the tech at Kel-Tec told me and the person I spoke to at MagSafe kind of said the same thing but declined to commit himself.
How do you compare the recoil between the frangibles and the Gold Dots?
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How do you compare the recoil between the frangibles and the Gold Dots?
They appear to be about the same to my old and now slightly arthritic right hand with the missing digit of its ring finger. 8)
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right hand with the missing digit of its ring finger. 8)
Richard - there has to be a good story here.
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Richard - there has to be a good story here.
Dave:
Yes, but I'll have to be pretty drunk to tell that one -- except to say that it involved a swarthy type who cursed in Farsi.
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I don't think there is any question that MagSafe loads its ammo over SAAMI pressure specs. I have read accounts (accompanied by pictures) on two occasions of Kel-Tec P-3ATs that were blown up using MagSafe. MagSafe now puts stickers on its packaging stating it is not for use in Kel-Tecs, but neither of the accounts I read about had the sticker on the ammo. No surprise they are less than forthcoming with callers considering their liability is sticking out about one mile...Kel-Tec has started telling customers not to buy it, mostly for their own safety. They have cheerfully rebuilt both the damaged guns I read of at no cost to the customers.
If I had spent $1000 for an R9, it would be the last thing I resorted to putting in it. The whole idea of having a pocket pistol chambered for a full power combat cartridge is not having to compromise on either the penetration or expansion side of the equation. IMO, prefragmented junk like MagSafe or Glaser is pointed squarely at people who think that $3/round will somehow buy them extra performance, when every credible expert I have read seems to think it is inferior to even the cheapest FMJ practice ammo. It is a dangerous scam in three ways: damage to your pistol and/or damage to your person if the pressure blows up your gun, and its inability to effectively end a gunfight getting you injured or killed by an assailant.
No offense meant to anyone here, but as you can see I feel pretty strongly about fragmenting handgun ammo in general and MagSafe in particular. Do yourself a favor and at least research this stuff on the web extensively before you trust your life and Rohrbaugh to it. ;)
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Dosen't mean that Magsafe will harm an R9. I've heard all the pros and cons for this. With all the negative writeups their are many positive ones. There's probably good and bad outcomes for both style ammos. Before one decides how bad a product is by what he read, he should do his own testing.
I use different ammo for different pistols. I use both.
Are their any other opinions about Magsafe on the forum ?
Salute'
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Dosen't mean that Magsafe will harm an R9.
Hmmm. It doesn't mean it won't harm it either. We know the R9 is not intended for use with +P ammo, and I haven't heard anyone dispute that they don't load MagSafe within SAAMI specs.
Some reading material:
LINK 1 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=38&t=27717) - note the big hole in the base of the brass...
LINK 2 (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm)
Keep in mind that even running a 50 round reliability test will cost about $100 worth of ammo. I personally won't carry ammo that hasn't passed some kind of reliability test in my gun. How many here who carry MagSafe ran a reliability test, and if so, how many rounds was it?
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I would not use frangible ammo in any defense weapon
because of an incident here in Houston where the concealed
carrier fired through his driver side windshield to kill the
perpetator over a road rage incident; there is just too much
other excellent ammo available that gets the job done.
The shooter was no-billed in this case.
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Hi Pocketgun. You may be absolutely correct. I don't know and that's why I opened this subject. I have never seen a report from a credible expert regarding this stuff and, if you can tell me where to find the reports I would be most grateful. Where did you see that any practice hollowpoint is superior to MagSafe or Glaser? And where is the information on damaged guns being rebuilt?
I am not trying to grind an ax or prove a point. I just want "credible" advice from someone who can substantiate his information. That's why I asked if anyone had "real world" experience. Your references would be most appreciated. I still believe in marksmanship over magic bullets but, if something new is out there and it works, I'd like to know about it.
And by the way, how the devil do you add the pictures, etc. to your posts?
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Posting pics -
You need to have pics hosted somewhere - I use my own servers.
But many folks put pics on places like imageshack.com or photobucket.com - and then put ''img'' tags around the pic url to have them display here.
So - using curly braces instead of square, to be able to show this - you might have something like -
{img}http://www.photobucket.com/twostar-pics/r9.jpg{/img}
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Regarding Magsafe ammo, one of my sources says that
there was a substantive owner/management change in
the recent past--2-3 years that also represented a sig-
nificant change in the ammo. I don't have any more than
that but why take a chance?
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Tracker, [you write, Why take a chance ?] Because a friend said there has been an owner/management change. How do you form a basis on that event ?
Maybe the change lends its way to the same technology.
Maybe the change is worse.
Maybe its better.
What did your friend say about the ammo before the mgmt change ?
What expertise does your friend have and how did he apply it to the efficiency of Magsafe ammo ?
Please let me know if you can ?
Respectfully,
Salute'
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I will inquire further but he liked the ammo before, indicated
the change was in the negative, and his expertise is at a
level that I give a lot of credence to it.
This is only a non-specific yellow warning flag that may or
may not have any substantive basis.
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Tom, are you still shooting GD 124 in your R9s? If you are and it works why not stay put. Just my thoughts.
Tom
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Tom,
Yes I am and did not mean to imply I would consider anything
else. As you say, why mess with a good thing?
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Tom, my thoughts were that you are happy with GD. Others are always on a search for new ammo to use in their pups. :) it seems
Tom
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Salute,
I checked with my source who knew the inventor and genius
behind Magsafe, Joe Zambone. Joe sold the business a few
years ago and was tragically killed while riding a motorcycle.
I saw a thread on Spyderco.com forum dated Mar. 2005 by
"Dr. Snubnose", posting no. 40; he says that he did ballistic
testing for Joe Zambone and has other comments on the
current Magsafe ammo--it is worth reading.
Am I saying the ammo is no good? absolutely not but it does
mean if there is any doubt, substantiated or not, I probably
won't rush out and buy it.
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Like a fish eyed fool, I went out and bought some of that "spendy" MagSafe and it worked flawlessly in my R9. NO OTHER AMMO can make that same claim, at least in my gun;^) Now, I have not used EVERY round available (and still haven't tried Silver Tips, but want to...), butmy normal round is the GDHP 115gr.
I took the whole box (I think its about $3 a pop!) and not one firing failure. I have about 8 rounds left and I too keep one in the pipe and the rest in the mag are Gold Dots. When the MagSafes are gone, I won't get more. Since my gun likes the GDHP, why change? When I'm a millionaire, then I'll waste my money on fancy ammo.
Calvin Cooledge
BTW-welcome to all the new, um, faces...
Salute,
I checked with my source who knew the inventor and genius
behind Magsafe, Joe Zambone. Joe sold the business a few
years ago and was tragically killed while riding a motorcycle.
I saw a thread on Spyderco.com forum dated Mar. 2005 by
"Dr. Snubnose", posting no. 40; he says that he did ballistic
testing for Joe Zambone and has other comments on the
current Magsafe ammo--it is worth reading.
Am I saying the ammo is no good? absolutely not but it does
mean if there is any doubt, substantiated or not, I probably
won't rush out and buy it.
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Whatever floats your boat, cool edge; try that flawless
feeding through a windshield, or maybe everyone drives
with their windows down where you reside.
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OK, so you say I should use only the GDHP's exclusively, rather than a MagSafe in the pipe? I just want to know the best way to go with my pup.
It's no big deal to use the remaining MagSafe rounds at the range and be done with them.
Oh, and Tracker, you sound a little mad here. Did I say something wrong? Certainly not my intention to do that!
Cal
Whatever floats your boat, cool edge; try that flawless
feeding through a windshield, or maybe everyone drives
with their windows down where you reside.
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Calvin,
I am not trying to tell anybody to do anything; all I am asking
is that all carry options are carefully considered for all tactical
possibilities, such as shooting through glass.
Sorry I overreacted; sometimes I have a tendency to do that.
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OK, that's cool, Tracker. I think of myself as an open minded
guy, willing to listen to others, and change my own habits if
I deem it appropriate. You made a good point, and this is one
of those instances. I thank you for making me think harder.
I'm surprised I didn't come up with your info myself, since I'm
an Officially Licensed Obsessive-Compulsive;^)
Anyway, all of you keep us thinking outside the box. It's my job
to "Think About The Box";^)*
Steve
*"Thinking About The Box" is an inside joke, that only Mountain Man
and a few others here will understand. My company makes boxes, see?
;^)
Calvin,
I am not trying to tell anybody to do anything; all I am asking
is that all carry options are carefully considered for all tactical
possibilities, such as shooting through glass.
Sorry I overreacted; sometimes I have a tendency to do that.
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Hello Tracker,
I thank you for your input on PreFrag Magsafe. I do however feel that although there has been Mgmt change, we don't have enough evidence that there is really a negative change to the ammo as far as quality.
As far as bullets thru windshields, yes its probable that conventional ammo is going to follow through. [despite there have been many documented events that 9mm have hit windshields and deflected into other directions] But, the prefrag would in that instance disperse.
IMO it depends on the senario that occurs where you would need to fire in defense and how it benefits the situation.
If Magsafe has a quality issue, all bets are off.
If not, its an issue of Kinetic energy for stopping power versus penetration and expansion.
It all depends on the moment of truth and the different senarios that may come about. Either one may be better than the other contingent on the event.
Experts, so called experts, Firearms instructors, etc: their opinions are useless as they all have different views.
What is, and can be telling would be Ballistic experts, doing a multi-faceted large study with both, and a clear conclusion.
So far no one on this thread or many others i've seen can produce that report. At least not yet.
All The Best,
Salute'
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Not Magsafe I know, and not scientific, but interesting anyway. So, for what its worth.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm
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Salute,
It seems that you have more than a passing interest in
MagSafe; if that is the case, would you mind sharing that
with us?
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A test through Water jugs and sheetrock by firearm enthusiasts is not real.
Wetpaks maybe better than Gelatin, but not accurate to what happens in the human body, [tissue and bone]
The true acid test is ammo comparison in humans.
Being that we won't be doing that, a test in fresh cadavas by balistic experts may be the next best thing. Don't know of any to date. But that wil measure the damage done to the body by higher kinetic energy versus the trade off.
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Sure Tracker, remember I didn't start this thread.
As per your question, My interest is just for the pure reason of knowing, through proper due dilligence.
And, maybe that can help the law abiding gun community to the best info.
Salute'
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Salute,
The original thread question, as you know, was a generic
question about frangible ammo in the R9. You shifted it to
MagSafe, specifically. That was why I asked the question:
Why MagSafe and not any one of numerous others?
MagSafe was the focus of your queries, not frangible ammo
in general.
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It was just an easy go to name. No, I don't have any reason to defend or promote Magsafe.
Just looking for the truth as we all should have.
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I think we all are; thanks.
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And I thought it was an innocent little question. At least it woke a few people up and, you know what? Handguns are kind of silly anyway. I have a pistol gripped 12 gauge pump with a 6.5 inch barrel that leaves little to argue about. I think I'll just keep that close by. They advise against bringing a knife to a gun fight. Why bring a pistol?
(Before you start, yes I have the tax stamp.)
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Thanks for the innocent little questiion, General or Admiral;
the experimentation of ammo in the R9 never ceases to amaze
and puzzle me.
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Field Grade,
I think that 12 gauge pump is a great idea if you never leave
your home or pick-up truck.
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After having been on the road for a few days and just checking in, as the first responder to Twostars' initial post, I may have contributed to this lively exchange. Since becoming a "civilian," I have opted to load a frangible round up front in my "carry guns" only because of the frangible's impact. I also say that as a firm believer in the "double tap" -- with the next round up being the "hottest" JHP rated for the weapon.
I don't want to fan any debate over FMJ, JHP, PreFrag, etc., etc. Load and carry what gives you the most comfort within the tolerances of the pistol or revolver oF your choice.
Stay safe, and always remember Colonel Cooper's Rules. 8)
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Hi Pocketgun. You may be absolutely correct. I don't know and that's why I opened this subject. I have never seen a report from a credible expert regarding this stuff and, if you can tell me where to find the reports I would be most grateful. Where did you see that any practice hollowpoint is superior to MagSafe or Glaser? And where is the information on damaged guns being rebuilt?
I am not trying to grind an ax or prove a point. I just want "credible" advice from someone who can substantiate his information. That's why I asked if anyone had "real world" experience. Your references would be most appreciated. I still believe in marksmanship over magic bullets but, if something new is out there and it works, I'd like to know about it.
And by the way, how the devil do you add the pictures, etc. to your posts?
Sorry there twostar, I forgot about this thread. :-[
I will see what I can do to find some of the references you requested, but I hope you are not in a hurry for them.
You can poke around at firearmstactical.com (http://www.firearmstactical.com/) if you like; there should be some info there, and they are as credible as anyone you will find in the mysterious "science" of terminal ballistics.
Links work like this: {b]{url=http://webaddressyouwant.com]TEXT YOU WILL SEE[/url][/b] - just change the "{" to "[" and add your text and address and it will work. ;)
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You're right Tracker, it is definitely a house gun. Having once used 20 mm's @ 6,000 rounds per minute, even a 6 inch 12 gauge is a bit of a comedown.
Guess the moniker is too obvious; it's definitely NOT admiral. Landing on boats sounds like an idea a Kennedy might come up with. There were times I had problems with 10,000 feet of runway, while it held still no less.