The Rohrbaugh Forum

Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Gunsmithing or Modifications for your Rohrbaugh => Topic started by: Phsimone on January 03, 2011, 10:13:57 PM

Title: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 03, 2011, 10:13:57 PM
Good evening gents, Sorry no subject on that last post. I have received my newest Pup.  I am going to have a few things done to it, and I need some suggestions. I know some of this is personal taste but some of it is for the performance of the pistol. Firstly NP3 or hard chrome? I understand the NP-3 has certain advantages but is not as hard as hard chrome but hard chorme does not have the rust resistance that NP-3 has. To port or not to port? Dyna-port or by whom? Going to polish the trigger and smooth the radius a bit, does the ejector need attention or not. I like the site dots that John had done, I think they are all that are necessary in a gun made for this ones purpose. Polish up the mag release. I know the "Real Robar" had polished the hammer I believe, I think that might distract one from looking down the slide. Definitely checker the front grip, maybe the rear and the front of the trigger guard. I cringe at that number. CZ grips, Oh who should do the work? Who has done this kind of work on a Rohrbaugh before? Anything else, all suggestions, except silly ones are welcome,  what the hell silly is good, we all need a chuckle now and then. Thanks in advance guys and gals or whatever. Who knows what or who is out there in cyberland.  I do feel like I forgot something, like setting a budget and finding a way to pay for it without stirring the ire of the gods.
Thanks, Phil  
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Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: yankee2500 on January 03, 2011, 11:35:39 PM
Phil,
   Your list looks pretty good, you might want to consider stippling over checkering (less expensive)
 Robar or Hard Chrome ? I am very happy with the Robar and have a Colt Gold Cup done in Hard Chrome, either one would be good on the pup. My next pup will have something other than NP3 (just for variety)
  The sight dots are nice (not sure they would help in an SD situation but I wanted them)
  There will soon be a lot of options for grips. ;D
As far as who to do the work, the most experienced shop for Rohrbaugh custom is. Bob Cogan  http://www.apwcogan.com/

John
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 04, 2011, 07:53:00 AM
Thanks John, I know the checkering is much more than stippling, to me it is a much "neater" appearance on a very cleanly designed pistol. Just my opinion. How different from the original stainless slide is the NP-3 coated gunin appearance? Does it have a painted appearance? Your gun looks really nice. I have seen hard chromed guns and it seems you can get different levels of "brightness". Your opinion is highly valued so keep them coming. The sight dots, in a SD situation, which is the important thing here, I think that it may help to more quickly line up your target. Until one is in the heat of the situation who knows though, sometimes it may help, other times maybe not.
Phil
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Z on January 04, 2011, 09:13:37 AM
AP&W does great work. I have had two customized and they have my third.

40LPI checkering - front and rear strap
Hard chrome - matt rounds brushed flats
Ported
Yankee grip extension (shipping today)

These are the things that were important to me.
You have to decide what is important to you. Your gun. Your money. What will help if you need the pup to defend yourself.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 04, 2011, 09:25:47 AM
Your input is appreciated, why the hard chrome rather than np-3? I did notice when the original Robar guns were produced by Rohrbaugh some ejector work was done, not necessary?
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 04, 2011, 09:48:26 AM
Phil.  I am considering the NP3 Robar coating and like it due to the coating of the internals.  I have talked to both individuals and they are super nice to talk to.

I wanted the hard chrome as I have seen the R9 Corey had and it was excellent; very hard decision.

John's, with the Robar coating, fires any ammo he puts in it, and I think he's now up to eight different brands, and it's so easy to clean, from what I'm told.

Good luck with your decision.  
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Z on January 04, 2011, 01:37:28 PM
I dont have a preference on hard chrome or NP3. I guess it came down to a one stop shop. AP&W does not offer NP3.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 04, 2011, 01:42:27 PM
Just me, but if AP&W did the internals, I would have the hard chrome.  Wish they did.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 04, 2011, 02:07:00 PM
So, APW does not do the surfaces where the slide meets the frame? Why not? They cannot control the thickness of the hard chrome?
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 04, 2011, 02:21:29 PM
You cannot mean that, sorry. You must be talking about some of the small parts that make up the operating system of the weapon. Some parts I understand, I will have to call.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 04, 2011, 05:51:08 PM
Not too hard to understand.  I asked Bob if he did the internals and he said no, they were not set up to do that.  His words, not mine.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Jack_F on January 04, 2011, 06:01:14 PM
http://ustacticalsupply.com/multicamcoating.aspx

I like the multicam look.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: yankee2500 on January 04, 2011, 08:08:50 PM
(http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/yankee2500/puke1.gif) OMG - Thats like painting a solid Cherry diningroom table. :o :o
  Sorry camo is fine for the Deer rifle and the Duck gun But never - never on a pup.

kj, maybe a good way to finish the Farmingdale. ;D ;D

Hey, but thats just me. ;D

John
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 04, 2011, 08:37:38 PM
John.  How dare you think such!    ;D  My Farmingdale!  NOOOOO!    ;D
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: ccoorreeyy on January 04, 2011, 09:19:53 PM
I don't care for it but if you like it go for it.

(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/digi-rohrbaugh.jpg)
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: FloridaCCW on January 05, 2011, 02:42:38 PM
To celebrate Shot Show, Robar has a 25% off of NP3 Plus special now  ;)
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: yankee2500 on January 05, 2011, 05:45:46 PM
That's a good deal for someone doing a stock gun, wont help in this case.

John
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 05, 2011, 05:49:16 PM
I've got a stock gun.  Might help me!    ;D
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 05, 2011, 06:04:00 PM
First, I hope that was a photo shopped pup and not for real. 2nd, I think I will probably go with the NP-3, it was a tough decision but, well from what I understand it gives a little better protection against salt, and I am in Florida about 100feet from a rather large body of salt so NP3plus it is. I understand he does some nice custom work beside? I am going for the checkering, radiusing and polishing trigger. I would love to do just a touch of engraving or jeweling.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 05, 2011, 06:05:58 PM
Any other ideas? Anything but Camo?
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: FloridaCCW on January 05, 2011, 09:57:11 PM
I missed the last sale, so I am thinking that I may send both of my R9s for NP3 treatment before this sale ends. I only have one set of extreme grips though, so that means one pup would need to go with CF grips on it. Bad idea?
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 06, 2011, 07:53:58 AM
Does Robar do checkering?
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: FloridaCCW on January 06, 2011, 09:13:25 AM
http://www.robarguns.com/Robar%20Price%20List%20April%202010.pdf
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 06, 2011, 05:03:43 PM
Thanks, I have checked their price list before and I could not find it. I was just wondering if someone knew. Not everything is always on a price listand website several times before. I will give them a call tomorrow.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 07, 2011, 06:33:02 PM
Well I spoke to our friends at Robar today looking for information on having my pup groomed, one of my questions, due to the fact that it is not on their price list was, "do you do checkering and if so how much?" The answer came back $300 for the front strap. I said OK thank you, I will get back to you when I am ready. Needless to say my pup will keep it smooth legs for the forseeable future. Grip on a pup is what about 2". Unless I go another way. I think a good set of grips along with Johns mag extension shoul provide sufficient holding power. Could get the gunsmith work done elsewhere and then send it off to Robar. Maybe I will call Mr. Cogan tomorrow to see how quickly he can do a couple of little things.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 07, 2011, 06:50:28 PM

If you are not a purist 3M tape works quite well on the front and back strap.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Richard S on January 07, 2011, 08:07:54 PM
I look at friction tape for a handgun the same way I look at snow chains for a vehicle -- use if needed. I keep a roll of the stuff in my range bag in the same pouch which holds velcro straps, another one of those "survival tools" which make life a lot easier.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 07, 2011, 08:15:01 PM
Now that's an excellent way to put it.  Use it if you need it.  I like that.  For those who need it, I agree with the above two comments.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 07, 2011, 08:36:50 PM

I've gotten hooked on it: winter, spring, summer, and fall. It is like a seat belt; you only need it when you have an accident, but which time is that?
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 07, 2011, 09:16:35 PM
Good point!    :)
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: yankee2500 on January 07, 2011, 09:47:38 PM
Quote
Well I spoke to our friends at Robar today looking for information on having my pup groomed, one of my questions, due to the fact that it is not on their price list was, "do you do checkering and if so how much?" The answer came back $300 for the front strap. I said OK thank you, I will get back to you when I am ready. Needless to say my pup will keep it smooth legs for the forseeable future. Grip on a pup is what about 2". Unless I go another way. I think a good set of grips along with Johns mag extension shoul provide sufficient holding power. Could get the gunsmith work done elsewhere and then send it off to Robar. Maybe I will call Mr. Cogan tomorrow to see how quickly he can do a couple of little things.

That's the reason my pup has no checkering.::)
  I have some different ideas for my new pup when I'm ready to get it started. ;D

John
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 07, 2011, 10:15:55 PM
Well don't keep me in the dark, what are your thoughts. The R9s are pretty good as they came out of the factory. Whats John's Pup going to be wearing? I already have the grip extensions.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: yankee2500 on January 07, 2011, 10:34:45 PM
Sorry, I cant share this one until it's done ;D but it will definitely be a one of a kind. :D

John
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 07, 2011, 10:38:04 PM

Please say you're not porting it.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 07, 2011, 10:43:30 PM
There are some ported ones already out there!    ;)
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 07, 2011, 10:59:30 PM

I really don't understand ruining a perfectly good self defense weapon but there are always those who have to tweak, sometimes to excess.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 07, 2011, 11:07:11 PM
Quote
Sorry, I cant share this one until it's done ;D but it will definitely be a one of a kind. :D

John

More suspense!    ;D
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: yankee2500 on January 07, 2011, 11:21:32 PM
I see no need to port the pup unless you are recoil sensitive, which I am not. :D
No Porting on my pup.
  The stock pup is a superb pocket pistol with an excellent design, but for me there are a couple of areas that could use a little attention. :D and so they shall receive it. ;D
  I can't say that doing what one likes or wants to there gun is ruining it, there are some who would say putting skate board tape or any type of tape on a gun is ruining it. To each his own.

John
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 12:08:22 AM

The tape, not skate board, comes off very easily like a pair of shoes. Some want a functioning self defense weapon and some like a show piece.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 08, 2011, 07:36:50 AM
Well I am not porting, not enough muzzle jump to require that, pistol is very controlable as it is. I really do not see a need for for either really, a good set of grips maybe a little wider than the stock grips with some nice texturing should do the trick. I have a glove in my bag if necessary at the range. It never has been. I do not put that many rounds through it in one sitting. I would just like something in case I have sweaty hands, which is a possibility in a stressful situation, that will assist me in holding onto the pistol with me having to regrip after a round or two. I was taught to very firmly grasp, I mean very firmly grasp the grip in the same manner as soon as possible after getting it out of the holster. Never had a problem with the pup. Does not behave that badly.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 08, 2011, 07:39:00 AM
I think I can get VZ to build me a pair of grips that will fill my needs. It sounds to me like they understand the engineering required to build a good usable pair of grips.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: yankee2500 on January 08, 2011, 08:32:29 AM
   There is no reason you cant have a functioning self defense weapon that is a show piece also. ;D  A highly engraved Gold inlayed pistol will kill you just as dead as a factory stock model.
:o  

John
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 08, 2011, 10:40:11 AM
Yes, I agree. Bling is just not my thing. A couple of small conservative items polished, grooved, jeweled or even engraved migh work. First I am thinking about functionability including a couple or three milled dots for a decent quick sight picture withough having anything to interfere or distract the mission at hand.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 12:29:37 PM

The only point I was trying to make about the tape is the increased tactile controllability it gives me in gripping the gun. It is at least a 25 per cent  improvement in ideal conditions and more than that in wet, humid, cold, or under stress. To each his own in these enhancements, however. Most of them are subjective, anyway.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 08, 2011, 12:34:28 PM
Quote
  There is no reason you cant have a functioning self defense weapon that is a show piece also. ;D  A highly engraved Gold inlayed pistol will kill you just as dead as a factory stock model.
:o  

John

I like Gold!    ;D

(http://s575.photobucket.com/albums/ss197/kjtrains/golddeagle.jpg)
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 12:41:09 PM

You wouldn't even have to fire that one to scare them away, if they weren't blinded first.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 08, 2011, 12:45:47 PM
It is sort of menacing!    ;D
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 08, 2011, 04:42:03 PM
That goes with a 1959 pink cadillac with 24'" Wheels a fur hat and blue patten leather shoes. I have used tape and I keep a roll in my second bag in my closet with holsters etc. I have used it in fact with a seecamp. I have used the old style  electrical tape, flat black with cloth as part or its construction or make up. Works well for me, rarely use it though, it is non slick, comes off easy and I think it may absorb some of the sweat.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: yankee2500 on January 08, 2011, 07:05:12 PM
Quote
That goes with a 1959 pink cadillac with 24'" Wheels a fur hat and blue patten leather shoes. I have used tape and I keep a roll in my second bag in my closet with holsters etc. I have used it in fact with a seecamp. I have used the old style  electrical tape, flat black with cloth as part or its construction or make up. Works well for me, rarely use it though, it is non slick, comes off easy and I think it may absorb some of the sweat.

Where have you seen me in my Caddy and how did you see my shoes ?  ;D ;D

John
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 07:24:49 PM

Phsimone,

Are you saying the .50 AE Gold Desert Eagle is the pimpmobile of guns?
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on January 08, 2011, 08:16:04 PM
Yes, I actually laughed out loud on that comment....somehow the term oxymoron comes to mind. The desert eagle what a beautiful tool, pimpmobile? well to each his own.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 08:32:02 PM
The '59 Cadillac wasn't too shabby either but I liked the '57 better.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 08, 2011, 09:17:06 PM
Quote
Yes, I actually laughed out loud on that comment....somehow the term oxymoron comes to mind. The desert eagle what a beautiful tool, pimpmobile? well to each his own.

How dare you call the .50 Caliber as such!    ;D


Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 08, 2011, 09:18:56 PM
Quote
The '59 Cadillac wasn't too shabby either but I liked the '57 better.

I liked the '57 Chevy Fuel Injection the best!    :D    :D    :D    :D
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 09:23:53 PM
Me, too.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: kjtrains on January 08, 2011, 09:30:09 PM
You have great taste!    :)
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: flintsghost on March 17, 2011, 05:26:38 PM
The subject of porting has come up many times in the years since I began teaching and is still around since I retired.  The original was "magna porting" brand.  The touted advantage to porting is that it is supposed to help manage recoil on heavy recoiling weapons.  I believe the first pistols that Magna Port did were Model 29 S&W .44 mags, way back when.   While I have never personally owned or felt the need to port a pistol or use a device on any of my rifles,  I have shot a considerable number of weapons that were done by various companies.   One rifle smith of my acquaintance, knowing that I hunted a lot with a .375 H&H, asked me to try his latest recoil compensator on a .338 off the bench.  It actually unscrewed so that the rifle could be shot with and without same in place.   I could detect no difference in either mode.  I have found a lot of similar things in shooting pistols that recoil heavily.   The negative things that I have noted is that the muzzle blast is increased considerably so that hearing protection is absolutely mandatory or the effect is similar to a flash bang grenade....shocking in big bores.  The other thing I noticed on the indoor range where I taught was that the flash that normally would go straight forward is now directed up and out into the view of the shooter.    This is highly undesirable because it will totally negate any night vision you may have as your eyes adjust to low light conditions.

When one considers that for all the nice things about small handguns, they are principally made for concealment and self defence, one must then consider under what conditions those may be.   Obviously, if we could accurately predict when we were going to need to use a weapon,  we would bring more and better weapons than a small handgun and friends also so armed.   Since we can't accurately predict it's use we need a weapon that is functional under all conditions and won't hamper our ability to use it while in that act.   Porting does hamper your ability.    My stock answer in the past has always been that porting can be a detriment in a gunfight.  If you feel you need it for recoil control, then get a smaller caliber weapon that you are more comfortable using.   If you are thinking about it because you feel there may be an advantage to it on your side....reconsider.    The fact is that whether civilian or a LEO, most gunfights occur during low light conditions when perpetrators feel they have more of an advantage.   Don't help them out by blinding yourself.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Reinz on March 17, 2011, 05:51:48 PM
I went through a phase for about 10 years where I thought many of my guns just HAD to be ported or compensated.

I shot them at dusk to dark and in indoor ranges with the lights off.  I was never blinded.  In fact I never saw the porting flash.  My eyes were on the target.  Or - maybe I blinked when the flash occured.  Whatevrer, there was no negativitity as far as the flash for me.

Now as far as the noise, that is another issue.  I wore double protection, and I now have a weird hearing disorder along with major hearing loss.  I won't go into it here, it would take too long to explain.  But I will never shoot another compensated or ported gun again, or be around them.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on March 17, 2011, 06:38:04 PM
Maybe I am missing something but I don't understand drilling holes in the top of a perfectly good barrel [and slide] but I've never jumped out of a functioning airplane, either.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Reinz on March 17, 2011, 07:12:13 PM
Touche'
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: flintsghost on March 17, 2011, 07:37:34 PM
Quote
Maybe I am missing something but I don't understand drilling holes in the top of a perfectly good barrel but I've never jumped out of a functioning airplane, either.

Here's the theory.  When the  ports (such as magna porting) or holes (in other types of porting) are put through the slide and into the barrel,  a lot of the gas pressure is released in an upward direction,  thus forcing the muzzle down by that pressure.   That's the physics theory about porting.  In actual practice that happens so fast that it may be unnoticable.  Now with regard to the barrel itself there is some work done on the interior bearing surface or supposed to be so that the projectile is not deformed going by the ports.  Otherwise hollow base or lead projectiles might actually begin to expand into the ports under pressure as they go by.   Whether that is even possible is beyond my knowledge and expertise.

I have seen the blast and noticed it almost everytime I've fired one in low light or no light.   Now maybe that is because unlike Reinz,  my main focus is not on the target but on the front sight (even in total darkness by use of night sights whenever possible) and the flash has been noticable to me.  The flash on ported weapons will always be either adjacent to or behind the front sight.   Depending upon the caliber, propellant and charge the visible blast may be really large to only moderate, but it will be there.   A useful example is a flash hider on say an M14.  The flash hider is not designed to prevent someone from seeing the flash, that is impossible physically.   But it is there in front of the front sight and lower to redirect the flash so that the shooter is not bothered by the flash of his own weapon.  Looking at the target will not prevent the sudden glare of light from causing your pupillary reaction which is involuntary and could not be controlled physically by a person unless they close their eyes.  Many people shoot with one eye closed which is more common practice than with both eyes open.   That could help with a high light flash as you then switch eyes.   But when training officers to defend themselves, part of the training involves trying to get the officers to keep both eyes open so that their peripheral vision can help them account for some of the unexpected.  In any deadly force encounter, what you don't see will probably be the thing that does you in.

As far as the hearing side of things,  Reinz has that exactly right as far as I'm concerned.   Having been around enough firearms in my lifetime where my hearing protection was inadequate and having had a few flash bangs detonated nearby, even with hearing protection....I always ask people if the ringing in my ears bothers them where they are standing.  I don't want to be around ported firearms either.   Now when I'm shooting, I wear custom form fitted ear inserts and also muffs over top of them.   Makes it harder to hear anyone around me but my hearing doesn't get any worse either.   The only time I use anything else is my annual retired LEO qualification for my HR218 permit where I wear the special hearing protection that is hooked to the sound system in the indoor range.   But hearing protection is another story all together.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on March 17, 2011, 09:08:26 PM
So, we can answer one of Phil's initial questions, "to port or not to port?"
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: hdfb910 on March 18, 2011, 10:28:15 AM
I personally don't like the idea of porting a defensive gun.  As mentioned before you cannot predict the conditions in which the weapon will be used.  In the event of being overwhelmed by bad guy or in very close contact w/ BG and the pistol has to be fired from a low position close to your body, you run the risk of actually being burned.  Bad guys may not always give you the opportunity to get into your perfect shooting position with arms extended.  I also agree if recoil is a problem use a smaller caliber.  Just my opinion.

Pete
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: tracker on March 18, 2011, 12:38:16 PM

I agree, Pete.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: Phsimone on March 18, 2011, 04:57:06 PM
Not to port, I have similar issues. Firing while drawing quickly and avoiding a bad guy you neve know the position the weapon might be in. The benefit does not outway the possible negative repercutions in my opinion.
Title: Re: Help With Customization(same as previous post)
Post by: flintsghost on March 18, 2011, 06:53:34 PM
Just as a side note.  I received my American Rifleman today and inside is a short memorian to Larry Kelly, the original inventor and owner of Mag-na Port.