Author Topic: ALLELUIA!  (Read 8348 times)

Offline justin2992

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ALLELUIA!
« on: September 11, 2004, 01:26:07 PM »
The 1938 Nazi Weapons Law is alive and well in the United States, and is called, "The Gun Control act of 1968", and is enforced by the modern day gestapo, known as the BATF.

Offline DDGator

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2004, 06:05:52 PM »
Yep -- just think about the profound effect the AWB and the 10 round limit has had on the industry.

It has lead to the development of far more compact and semi-compact guns, and was responsible--at least in part--for the rejuvination of revolvers and single stack 1911s...

It will be interesting to watch the possible resurgence of the hi-capacity Wonder 9s.

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Offline R9SCarry

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2004, 10:49:59 PM »
I am watching - and waiting ........
Chris - R9S
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Offline flyandscuba

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2004, 03:51:55 AM »
Yep -- a great time indeed.  To celebrate tonight, I ordered a NIB Bushmaster M4A3 -- once LEO, but now "ban free".  The best part was it's $875 shipped!!! ;D
I'm not a gun expert -- but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night...


Offline RJ HEDLEY

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2004, 10:32:54 AM »
Fly
It's so neat to have that dumb law gone, but I imagine there are plans to replace it with something else.

Are you in the path of Irene on it's present track?
RJ=


 
 

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2004, 11:55:59 AM »
I went to a local dealer who told me they would be selling LEO marked Glock mags to civilians after the expiration of the ban for $24 each.

I went there this morning and they snubbed me.  They said their reading of the law is that it expires at midnight tonight (Monday).  A tried to argue with them, but they acted like I was stupid and/or trying to con them.  I think I am going to buy my regular dealer's "pre-ban" leftovers instead.

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Offline BillinPittsburgh

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2004, 05:52:14 PM »
The "renewal" of the ban would ban far, far more guns.  All the more reason why we need to re-elect Bush.  Kerry recently received a semiauto shotgun that would be illegal under a law he supported in his attempt to distort his record on guns.  The ONLY vote he has made this year was to extend the ban.

As much as I hated the ban, the combination of the ban and the success of nondiscriminatory concealed handgun licensing laws has definitely resulted in better defensive guns than would otherwise be available.  For example:

1)  More single-stack guns that are thin and easy to conceal.

2)  The mini-Glocks, like the 26 I carry.

3)  Full-size guns carrying fewer rounds of harder-hitting ammo.  Regardless of what I am up against, I'd rather be able to deliver fast, accurate, hard-hitting shots than deliver a larger number of less effective shots.

10 years ago I couldn't understand why the single stack 1911 was so popular.  Now I consider it, along with Glock and the HK P7M8, to be among the best handguns ever devised.  My wife shoots a Beretta 92 better than anything else so that is the better choice for her, but all things being equal, even without the ban, a 1911 with 8+1 rounds of .45 will still be a better fighting handgun than a 15+1 round 9mm.
Gentleness can only be expected from the strong.  Ancient Chinese proverb.

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2004, 05:56:28 PM »
Bill,

I agreed with everything you said, right up until the last sentence.  That may be true -- but I wouldn't necessarily say a 1911 is a better fighting handgun than a (you say 15, I say:) 17+1 9mm.  It really depends on the person and the application.  
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Offline BillinPittsburgh

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2004, 06:16:36 PM »
To a certain extent, the best gun is ultimately the one the shooter shoots the best.

Let's look at the worst case scenario:  something from the Al-Quaida training tapes.  Four opponents armed with AK-47's and grenates, with the attackers forming back-to-back pairs.  Not a situation any sane person would want to enter with a handgun and alone, but still worth examining to see what will enable one to best survive it.

Clearly the problem here is that you have to neutralize 4 opponents before they figure out who is shooting at them and start shooting at you.  Assume that whatever gun is chosen the shooter immediately heads for whatever cover is available, and that the attackers are distracted by the 50-100 other people in the immediate area - which is quite realistic.  So, if you place your first 2 shots well, you have two opponents hit and hopefully down before the others realize what is happening.

The best chance of surviving is to minimize the amount of time required to neutralize each opponent.  You need fast, accurate, disabling hits.  Ideally you want a 1-shot stop, although I realize that such things are not easy to achieve with any handgun.  So, you want the most accurate and hardest hitting handgun you can have, so you can make each shot count for its maximum potential.  If the fight is still going on when you have reached round 10 or 12, you are in deep doo doo if not already dead.  I'd want the .45 1911 instead of the 17+1 Glock because it gives me the best chance of ending the fight with 4 shots.

Consider another situation:  you have time for 1 shot before your attacker reaches your wife with a knife.  What do you want that one shot to be?

Consider the situation of a soldier in Afghanistan or Iraq, who has to carry maybe 80-100 lb. of gear and needs to maximize the amount of ammo while minimizing total weight.  He may be quite some distance from being able to be resupplied.  Now, the 17+1 shot 9mm makes a lot of sense.

Consider my wife.  She is a novice shooter who is becoming less recoil-sensitive and muzzle-flash sensitive, but it is still an issue.  She shoots well with big, heavy .38 spl. and 9mm guns, and shoots my 1911 with less complaints than she does most 9mm's, but she does her best shooting with a big, heavy Beretta 9mm or K-frame S&W.  I'd rather see her place a 9mm or .38 in center mass than see her make peripheral hits with a .45.  The 9mm makes sense.

Consider concealed carry.  A 1911 with thin grips is a very easy to conceal gun, even in full-size configuration.  Same with the magazines.  However, a Glock 17 is only 1/10 inch thicker (and is actually thinner if standard grips are used on the 1911), and 17+1 rounds basically eliminates the need to carry spare ammo.  A 9mm can always be made smaller than an equivalent .45.  The 9mm makes sense.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2004, 06:38:14 PM by BillinPittsburgh »
Gentleness can only be expected from the strong.  Ancient Chinese proverb.

Offline DDGator

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2004, 09:47:03 PM »
I don't think we really disagree on any of that stuff.  But your scenarios are self-limiting -- i.e., by reducing the amount of time available to shoot, the scenario emphasizes sheer stopping power over capacity.  Of course, bigger is better -- but a premium 9mm +P or +P+ JHP is no slouch either.

It depends what we mean by a fighting handgun.  If we are discussing nightmare worst case scenarios, consider both the 1911 packer and the Glock 17 (you assumed it was a Glock -- not me  ;) ) packer with two spare mags.  Now our 1911 guy has 9+8+8=25 rounds while our G17 guy has 18+17+17=52!

All that being said -- its mostly for the intellectual debate.  I am not one to believe that capacity solves all ills, as least as far as concealed carry is concerned.  I now carry an R-9, but have been known to carry a 5-shot J-frame for a long time.

However, I think 16 rounds in my G19 would handle most conceivable situations!   8)
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Offline flyandscuba

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2004, 12:00:43 AM »
I think what we all DO agree upon -- is that this "lady" is BAD NEWS...

I'm not a gun expert -- but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night...


Offline R9SCarry

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2004, 12:12:09 AM »
Quote
[size=13]I think what we all DO agree upon -- is that this "lady" is BAD NEWS...[/size]

Fly - that ''person'' ..... makes me want to .. ummm ...... sorry .. can't stop it ........


Ahhrrrr.
Chris - R9S
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Offline shooterjb

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2004, 10:15:21 AM »
And to think that a couple of short years ago I could have bought what she is holding for a lousy $325. She drove the price way up. I can't stand her either.

Hi Bill and Duane,

I am enjoying the classic debate between the two of you over the advantages of a Colt .45 versus a high-cap 9mm spray and pray weapon. Can you guess which one I favor?

While the two of you are debating, I am going to slip my R9S in my pocket and head on down to my local dealer to get some Butler Creek steel lipped 25, or higher, round magazines for my Ruger 10/22. Life is wonderful. I already have hi-cap mags for all of my more serious guns that will accept them.

Best Regards,

Frank

Offline DDGator

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2004, 11:08:29 AM »
Yep -- .45 v. 9mm is a classic debate that was somewhat on the shelf the last few years with the Clintonized mags.  Now it can rear up again.  Frankly, I could argue either side of the debate, depending upon my mood.

Having been the first in line this morning to buy formerly LEO normal capacity magazines at a local gun shop (they would not sell them yesterday, interpreting the ban as exipring at the end of the 13th), I am more attuned to the Wonder Nine argument right now!

I hate the phrase "spray and pray," which connotes that the user of the high capacity firearm will not care or bother to make his or her shots count.  I certainly do not believe that capacity is a cure for lack of skill...or foolishness.   ;D

This morning I purchased 3 G17 mags and 1 G19 mag -- brand new -- for $106.  Pretty cool.   8)
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Offline shooterjb

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Re: ALLELUIA!
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2004, 06:16:25 PM »
Hi Duane,

Just kidding about the "spray and pray". I know that the people on this forum know better. No offense intended.

Frank