The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh Range Reports => Topic started by: MRC on August 20, 2011, 01:44:05 PM
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I went to the range on August 18th to test some Hornady FTX Critical Defense ammo that I had purchased just last week. I also chronographed 3 other brands in my R9 and PM9. The results are below:
115 gr GD R9 - 1089, 1094, 1084, 1080 fps
PM9 - 1161, 1100 fps
124 gr GD R9 - 1042, 988, 1011, 996 fps
PM9 - 1079. 1036 fps
124 Federal R9 - 937, 968, 970, 974 fps
PM9 - 992, 983 fps
115 gr CD R9 - 991, 999, 1030, 1004 fps
PM9 - 1025, 1026 fps
I fired the PM9 first and picked up all the brass before moving to the R9. All primers were struck solidly and showed nothing unusual,
I then fired the 16 rounds through the R9 and picked up the brass. Both Gold Dots and the Federal had normal looking primers and showed nothing unusual. The primers on all four Hornady were "fried egg" appearing. While chronographing I fire from a rest which can lead to some "limp wristing" so I fired eight more rounds off-hand for a further test and to check accuracy. All the primers showed signs of the "fried egg" look but not as bad.
All cartridges fed, fired, and ejected without any failure in both guns. Accuracy was also good.
I plan on contacting Hornady to see what their thoughts are on the problem with their CD ammo and the R9. I still have 11 unfired rounds and will not do anything with it until I talk to them. Everything appeared normal on the CD's fired in the PM9.
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They will probably give you the same song and dance they gave me a year ago. Caveat emptor.
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I am just wanting to find some one who can tell me what causes this "fried egg" look. I have a Colt Pocket Nine that does this also. I have been to two Gunsmiths and an Arsenal Armorer with this problem and no one seems to really know what it is. It still looks lke a high pressure problem to me, but I have no idea what would cause it just in certain pistols.
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As you have suggested the fried egg primer is associated with the smaller compact 9 mm. pistols. Apparently, they do not have the equivalent strike capability of larger pistols. The small guns do not mix well with hard primers. Also, Hornady told me that they would look into adjusting the primer seating depth. That is when I decided to let them do all of the research they needed, just without me.
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I talked to Hornady this A.M. about the odd looking primers. The gentleman I talked to told me they hear of this every so often but is not a common problem. He said he has heard from one other Rohrbaugh owner about it who was going to send the ammo back, but they never received it.
He told me there are many contributing factors, but headspace problems account for about 75% he felt. Other factors are soft or hard primers, seating depth of primer, and spring tensions.
After talking to him I measured the fired cases of the different brands I tested the other day, and the Hornady was about .004 of an inch shorter. I then removed the barrels from the R9 and the PM9 and inserted the various live rouds from the boxes I used for the test. I measured the distance from the head of the cartridge to the muzzle for all the rounds. The measurements in the PM9 barrel were +or- .001" for all four of the cartridge types measuring two from each box. The Hornady ammo in the R9 barrel was .003 to.004" less than the other three brands meaning it set into the chamber farther creating more headspace.
Is this enough to cause a problem? Probably not but add in an extra couple of .001's in the lockup of the R9 which is possible we could have a problem. My recoil spring is about due for a change so that is another variable.
He confirmed by lot number that the primers were Winchester. He said they specify a softer cup material from Winchester for the CD ammo.
After talking with Hornady, I really do no think there is a problem using this ammo in my R9. I ask him what he though and his opinion is if it goes off and the primers are tight in the fired case, he saw no problem.
I plan on getting my Colt Pocket Nine out and run some more tests with it, the R9 and the Hornady ammo.
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Thanks for the info, MRC. Good to know.
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There were several people including me who returned CD ammo to them. Their credibility was gone with me a year ago.
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Tracker - I do not know what problems you were having with the ammo, but mine were completely different from what Chihuahua's pictures showed. My rounds all fired but several showed no firing pin indentation and the rest were barely dimpled indicating the primer was pushed back against the breach face and flattening out. He and I both felt it was as much of a gun problem as an ammunition problem. All the rounds fired in the PM9 looked normal.
Sorry you had problems with Hornady, but everything he told me made sense and I appreciated his help.
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I bought the CD for the R9. Since it wasn't reliable for the Rohrbaugh all of its bells and whistles didn't matter. I not only had the "fried egg" look there were also numerous failures to fire. There are just too many manufacturers who make reliable ammo that function flawlessly in the R9 to risk the Hornady primer issue. Apparently, the employees spout the party line at the risk of retribution.
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I appreciate all your time, effort and money that your put into this MRC, especially the detailed feedback.
My thinking parallels Tracker's on this. Defense is critical and Critical Defense is questionable. With so many options available out there why risk it with something questionalble ?
It's just not worth it.
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tracker, Reinz
You aren't going to get any arguement from me on the reliability of this ammo. In my case I truly believe it is the guns fault and not Hornady. Your experiences and Chihuahua's are completely different than mine. I am not carrying this stuff in the R9 but I do not think it's Hornady's fault. It is well documented here on the forum about the likes and dislikes of the R9 as far as ammunition. The R9 is not the only good 9mm that I carry regularly.
As an engineer and an avid reloader, this stuff is very interesting to me.
If I have headspace problems with the Pocket Nine or the R9, I want to know.
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If it is the gun's fault, why does other recommended ammo work without a hiccup?
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MRC - so now it is more down to a puzzle problem ?
Being a reloader myself, that intriques me as well.
But we are at a slight disadvantage. We do not know the receipe of the CD. May not be necessary at all, but could be helpful.
For all we know, it can all come down to the "custom" primers that Winchester is making for Hornady. Being a softer cup material could be the whole crux of the matter. Could be inconsistences in material, some primers coming in too soft - which gives the fried egg appeareance. We could be getting some defective primers so to speak. Afterall, how many of these in proportion to their regular primers does Winchester make ?
2% ? - 5 % ?... Very easy to see mistakes here.
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MRC - something else, could be the gun's fault and the ammo's fault together.
One, the soft primers.
Two, being such a small gun shooting a big cartridge so to speak, think about how hard the slide comes back and thus recoils, especially compared to a full sized 9mm.
Quite a bit more force eh?
That cartrige case is slamming into the bolt face at the same time with that force.
Well add that force with softer primers and possibly that could be a reason for fried eggs?
At least popping out the primer dents.
Thoughts ?
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If it is the gun's fault, why does other recommended ammo work without a hiccup?
If it is the ammo's fault why does it work perfectly in other guns?
Reinz is probably right in saying it is a combination of ammo and gun. A too short cartridge and a too long chamber, both in spec, but add up the tolerances and problems could arise. Throw in a too soft primer and a very light hammer strike and more troubles show up.
You are right, we're guessing.
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I agree with the combination theory but when I was involved in my discussions with Hornady and others the talk centered around the hard S&B primers they were using at the time.
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Ok, I am not the engineer here but there are some facts that I DO know. Whether hard primers Or soft primers.
First of all, after the gun is fired all primers back out.
When the casing slams back into the bolt the primer gets pushed back in (reset).
The R9 has More recoil than other nines. Thus more force/energy ?
Now to swithch gears -
I reload with two Dillon 1050's and one 550. The 1050's won't work for this example because ot the two alignment rods and they insert the primer on the down stroke.
The 550 inserts the primer in one operation at the up-stroke.
Now if you are not aligned well and push too hard you can do some deformations to the primers. And at not near the force and acceleration that the R9 is doing.
I don't know what you reload on MRC, but I hope this makes sense to you.
Now to put it all together-
The R9 is the smallest nine out there, with the most recoil. The headspace may be out by a few thousands, but in spec. However within these parameters, it is just enough wiggle room to cause the primer NOT to reset perfectly due to excessive force and misalignment due to the wiggle room of headspace and/or recoil management of the shooter.
If you have reloaded enough and squished enough primers, then this might make sense to ya.
That's how ya fry an egg - redneck style!
edited for spelling
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I follow you Reinz.
The R9 also has the lightest slide by far relying on a stiff spring to absorb all the recoil energy. My spring is about 90% of the way to 200 rounds.
Soft case brass can cause loose primers. (Seen more often in high pressure rifle loads).
Lots of things to think about. Pulled my Colt Pocket Nine out of the safe today for next round. That is the only other firearm I have ever seen this happen with. Going to take them both down to the gunsmith tomorrow and see if he can check headspace. I know he is building 9 mm hardball guns now.
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Sounds like a good plan.
Not sure what you mean by a 9mm "hardball" gun.
I have full size 1911 9mm's as well as compact.
Also full size competition 9mm's. I would think that is as "hardball" as it gets. (Sig X-5, CZ Sport, Stoeger model 85(?) ).
By the way, in my above post, I edited the dillon 550 to read if (not) aligned. sorry about that.
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MRC & Reinz. You both have some very good thoughts; thanks!
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Here is another input from the S&W Forum:
Rule3
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,351
Well folks, after several e mails and phone calls....
I finally got Hornady to issue a call tag to pick up the ammo, took three e mails and at least as many phone calls. here is their reply. I will have the gun checked out but for a 25 round box of ammo with 4-5 live ones returned I find the response well, so so.
I recently got the opportunity to look into your return of 9mm 115 grain Critical Defense ammunition. Misfires in a self defense handgun can be very unsettling and it is definitely a problem worth some attention.
In complaints of misfires there are a few measurements I look at that can give obvious cues as to what the problem is. The first measurement I took was cartridge headspace. Headspace is a measurement of a specific dimension of the the cartridge case that determines how the round will "seat" in the chamber. If a headspace is too long than the cartridge may not chamber at all. If it is too short there can be problems with misfires. SAAMI specification for headspace of the 9mm cartridge is .744" - .754". I measured the headspace of the misfired rounds you sent in and determined the headspace values to be .747", .747", .747" and .748". These are within specification and therefore I ruled out headspace as the culprit of this problem.
Next I checked the primers. To start with I will explain the term "all fire." An all fire is the depth that a firing pin must penetrate a primer for 100% reliable primer ignition. The requirement for an all fire is .017". I carefully measured the depth at which your firing pin struck these primers and found the depths to be .013", .014", .014" and .015". These strikes are very close to all fire limit and I think very well explain your situation. I'm assuming that the remainder of the box was shot successfully and the only misfires were sent to us.
Next I sent the misfired rounds down to our lab to be test fired. We do not have the specific model of Kahr in our inventory that you have. However, we do have a Kahr MK9 which seems to be a very similar design. All four of the misfired rounds fired on the first primer strike and functioned the gun flawlessly.
The .017" for an all fire is not like crossing a magic line and being able to say, "These are .016" and will never fire." Ammunition fired from guns that are striking primers in a very borderline manner can show this flip-flop behavior. Your firing pin penetration depths on the misfires were very close to the requirement for an all fire and I think the issue is simply that your firing pin is striking primers right at or slightly under the requirement causing an occasional misfire but usually firing successfully. Lastly this is also likely the explanation for why different ammunition works fine out of the gun as different manufacturers use different primers that can have slightly different hardness's. Our primers, while still in spec, are very likely a little harder than those in the Speer and Remington that you report as functioning fine. In short I would strongly suggest taking your firearm to a gunsmith or sending it in to Kahr for a quick look over. A few small tweaks to the firing pin or its spring is likely all it will take to make this gun 100% reliable with all types of ammunition.
As a result of being unable to find any defect in the ammunition itself I must hold off at this time in issuing a return. However, if you have the firearm checked and it comes back with a clean bill of health with no findable faults I would be more than happy to send you out a new lot of 9mm Critical Defense ammunition.
Here is most of what I wrote back:
I can not dispute your information as you have the instruments, technology and experience in measuring such things. But look at it from a customer practical standpoint.. You also "assumed the rest fired" which they did not. I rechambered several and restruck them, then they fired
As I believe I mentioned in my letter, I have fired over 400 rounds of ammo through this gun of many different brands, plus my own reloads using CCI, Winchester and Wolf primers and have never had a failure to ignite a primer. I buy your new brand and have a problem. Not a problem with feeding or ejecting which occurs with some guns/ammo combination, but failure to ignite which I have never had in a factory load. Photographs of the primer strikes shared with experienced reloaders all concurred that the strike was hard and deep enough that it should have ignited. I also mentioned that I re- chambered some of the misfires and yes, they did go off on the second strike which to me indicates a high primer. You did not mention this possibility in your report.
So the bottom line is that Remington, Winchester, PMC, Fiochi, MagTech, Speer, Federal, Blazer Brass, Speer, and reloads all fire, but only the new Hornady CD does not, therefore it's the gun? I find that difficult to comprehend.
I have every round fired written in a log by date, quantity and any noted failures.
I will relay your information to the members of several reloading forums I belong to as they were interested in the outcome.
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Thanks for posting Tracker.
Hornady had a good a argument. But at times, a techno-geek can not see the forest for the trees. Common sense can be difficult.
Considering how much ammo they give away to gun writers and other promos, satisfying a customer would be a drop in the bucket.
Just Dumb.
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Keep in mind they told MRC that no one had returned any defective ammo to them. Their answer to me was to send another box of bad ammo in return for mine. Denial and self justification is a killer in customer relations.
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A few more thoughts.
I got the impression from the guy at Hornady that he personally had talked to only one customer about CD ammo and Rohrbaughs and was not talking about the whole company when he said that the customer was going to return tha ammo and did not.
The headspace on the ammo that fired in my gun was shorter than yours and fired but had strange looking primers.
I know that the firing pin penetration appears much shorter on all the ammo that I have fired in the R9 than with the PM9. In fact these are the lightest hits I can ever remember on any handgun. This has been a constant concern of mine in carrying this gun, but I have had no failures to fire yet. It is still on my mind constantly and affecting my confidence.
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I know that the firing pin penetration appears much shorter on all the ammo that I have fired in the R9 than with the PM9. In fact these are the lightest hits I can ever remember on any handgun. This has been a constant concern of mine in carrying this gun, but I have had no failures to fire yet. It is still on my mind constantly and affecting my confidence.
I know what you mean. I own a lot of handguns. And my R9's are the only ones that I have had to use the multiple strike feature on to detonate some rounds.
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MRC,
Your confidence level will go up with practice and other ammo than CD. There is nothing that inspires confidence like success.
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MRC,
Your confidence level will go up with practice and other ammo than CD. There is nothing that inspires confidence like success.
Excellent words, for sure!
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I know what you mean. I own a lot of handguns. And my R9's are the only ones that I have had to use the multiple strike feature on to detonate some rounds.
I wish you good luck Reinz, but when a gun requires double strikes to fire, it does not go in my pocket any more. I have others that go on the first pull always. Just my opinion.
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I carry mulitiple guns, so it's not as big of an issue to me as you would think.
Also, I KNOW that I am not the only one that has had this happened to. Especially with two out of three guns so far.
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Finally got to the Gunsmith's shop yesterday to check the headspace on the R9, Colt Pocket Nine, and the PM9 as a comparison.
The results are I suspected with all being well within specifications. The chamber of the R9 was cut a little deeper than the PM9 but still within specs. The Hornady CD ammo is on the "short side" of the tolerances also. The result was about .010 inch free play which in my Gunsmith's opinion should not cause problems.
Soft primers could also be a factor but that is just speculation on our part.
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Finally got to the Gunsmith's shop yesterday to check the headspace on the R9, Colt Pocket Nine, and the PM9 as a comparison.
The results are I suspected with all being well within specifications. The chamber of the R9 was cut a little deeper than the PM9 but still within specs. The Hornady CD ammo is on the "short side" of the tolerances also. The result was about .010 inch free play which in my Gunsmith's opinion should not cause problems.
Soft primers could also be a factor but that is just speculation on our part.
Thanks for the update, MRC.
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Just an update. I got ahold of a different lot of the Hornady 9mm CD ammo to run some more tests.
I took the R9. a Colt Pocket Nine, and a PM9 to the range to test. The results with the R9 were the same, 'fried egg' looking primers but all firing on the first trigger pull.
The Pocket Nine shot the CD's well with normal looking primers but on the light side. I have had trouble with 'fried egg' primers in the past with some ammo in this particular pistol but not with the CD's this time.
The PM9 shot really well with the CD's and showed good, strong hits of the firing pin to the primer typical of striker fired pistols.
I am 98% sure that the R9 would function well with the CD's but I will not take a chance with them. The CD's look like the ammo I will carry in the PM9 and the P380 though.
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Thanks for the update.
Don't know if we will ever solve this mystery. :-/
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I spent some time at the range yesterday and sent 50 rounds of Hornady FTX Critical Defense through my pup. Flawless and 49 centerd holes in the paper's head.......... ;D
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Great. Very good news on the Critical Defense. :)
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I also shot some guard dog and must say that it too ran flawless and with much less recoil. I just wish that round did better in the jello tests..............