Hornady Critical Defense

[tracker]

I agree with the combination theory but when I was involved in my discussions with Hornady and others the talk centered around the hard S&B primers they were using at the time.

[Reinz]

Ok, I am not the engineer here but there are some facts that I DO know.  Whether hard primers Or soft primers.

First of all, after the gun is fired all primers back out.

When the casing slams back into the bolt the primer gets pushed back in (reset).

The R9 has More recoil than other nines.  Thus more force/energy ?

Now to swithch gears -

I reload with two Dillon 1050's and one 550.  The 1050's won't work for this example because ot the two alignment rods  and they insert the primer on the down stroke.
The 550 inserts the primer in one operation at the up-stroke.  
Now if you are not aligned well and push too hard you can do some deformations to the primers.  And at not near the force and acceleration that the R9 is doing.

I don't know what you reload on MRC, but I hope this makes sense to you.

Now to put it all together-

The R9 is the smallest nine out there, with the most recoil.  The headspace may be out by a few thousands, but in spec.  However within these parameters, it is just enough wiggle room to cause the primer NOT to reset perfectly due to excessive force and misalignment due to the wiggle room of headspace and/or recoil management of the shooter.

If you have reloaded enough and squished enough primers, then this might make sense to ya.

That's how ya fry an egg - redneck style!



edited for spelling

[MRC]

I follow you Reinz.

The R9 also has the lightest slide by far relying on a stiff spring to absorb all the recoil energy.  My spring is about 90% of the way to 200 rounds.

Soft case brass can cause loose primers.  (Seen more often in high pressure rifle loads).

Lots of things to think about.  Pulled my Colt Pocket Nine out of the safe today for next round.  That is the only other firearm I have ever seen this happen with.  Going to take them both down to the gunsmith tomorrow and see if he can check headspace.  I know he is building 9 mm hardball guns now.

[Reinz]

Sounds like a good plan.

Not sure what you mean by a 9mm "hardball" gun.

I have full size 1911 9mm's as well as compact.  

Also full size competition 9mm's.  I would think that is as "hardball" as it gets. (Sig X-5, CZ Sport, Stoeger model 85(?) ).

By the way, in my above post, I edited the dillon 550 to read if (not) aligned.  sorry about that.

[kjtrains]

MRC & Reinz.  You both have some very good thoughts; thanks!

[tracker]

Here is another input from the S&W Forum:




      
Rule3  
Member
                     
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,351
 Well folks, after several e mails and phone calls....
I finally got Hornady to issue a call tag to pick up the ammo, took three e mails and at least as many phone calls. here is their reply. I will have the gun checked out but for a 25 round box of ammo with 4-5 live ones returned I find the response well, so so.




I recently got the opportunity to look into your return of 9mm 115 grain Critical Defense ammunition. Misfires in a self defense handgun can be very unsettling and it is definitely a problem worth some attention.

In complaints of misfires there are a few measurements I look at that can give obvious cues as to what the problem is. The first measurement I took was cartridge headspace. Headspace is a measurement of a specific dimension of the the cartridge case that determines how the round will "seat" in the chamber. If a headspace is too long than the cartridge may not chamber at all. If it is too short there can be problems with misfires. SAAMI specification for headspace of the 9mm cartridge is .744" - .754". I measured the headspace of the misfired rounds you sent in and determined the headspace values to be .747", .747", .747" and .748". These are within specification and therefore I ruled out headspace as the culprit of this problem.

Next I checked the primers. To start with I will explain the term "all fire." An all fire is the depth that a firing pin must penetrate a primer for 100% reliable primer ignition. The requirement for an all fire is .017". I carefully measured the depth at which your firing pin struck these primers and found the depths to be .013", .014", .014" and .015". These strikes are very close to all fire limit and I think very well explain your situation. I'm assuming that the remainder of the box was shot successfully and the only misfires were sent to us.

Next I sent the misfired rounds down to our lab to be test fired. We do not have the specific model of Kahr in our inventory that you have. However, we do have a Kahr MK9 which seems to be a very similar design. All four of the misfired rounds fired on the first primer strike and functioned the gun flawlessly.

The .017" for an all fire is not like crossing a magic line and being able to say, "These are .016" and will never fire." Ammunition fired from guns that are striking primers in a very borderline manner can show this flip-flop behavior. Your firing pin penetration depths on the misfires were very close to the requirement for an all fire and I think the issue is simply that your firing pin is striking primers right at or slightly under the requirement causing an occasional misfire but usually firing successfully. Lastly this is also likely the explanation for why different ammunition works fine out of the gun as different manufacturers use different primers that can have slightly different hardness's. Our primers, while still in spec, are very likely a little harder than those in the Speer and Remington that you report as functioning fine. In short I would strongly suggest taking your firearm to a gunsmith or sending it in to Kahr for a quick look over. A few small tweaks to the firing pin or its spring is likely all it will take to make this gun 100% reliable with all types of ammunition.

As a result of being unable to find any defect in the ammunition itself I must hold off at this time in issuing a return. However, if you have the firearm checked and it comes back with a clean bill of health with no findable faults I would be more than happy to send you out a new lot of 9mm Critical Defense ammunition.

Here is most of what I wrote back:


I can not dispute your information as you have the instruments, technology and experience in measuring such things. But look at it from a customer practical standpoint.. You also "assumed the rest fired" which they did not. I rechambered several and restruck them, then they fired
As I believe I mentioned in my letter, I have fired over 400 rounds of ammo through this gun of many different brands, plus my own reloads using CCI, Winchester and Wolf primers and have never had a failure to ignite a primer. I buy your new brand and have a problem. Not a problem with feeding or ejecting which occurs with some guns/ammo combination, but failure to ignite which I have never had in a factory load. Photographs of the primer strikes shared with experienced reloaders all concurred that the strike was hard and deep enough that it should have ignited. I also mentioned that I re- chambered some of the misfires and yes, they did go off on the second strike which to me indicates a high primer. You did not mention this possibility in your report.

So the bottom line is that Remington, Winchester, PMC, Fiochi, MagTech, Speer, Federal, Blazer Brass, Speer, and reloads all fire, but only the new Hornady CD does not, therefore it's the gun? I find that difficult to comprehend.
I have every round fired written in a log by date, quantity and any noted failures.

I will relay your information to the members of several reloading forums I belong to as they were interested in the outcome.

[Reinz]

Thanks for posting Tracker.

Hornady had a good a argument.  But  at times,  a techno-geek can not see the forest for the trees.  Common sense can be difficult.

Considering how much ammo they give away to gun writers and other promos, satisfying a customer would be a drop in the bucket.

Just Dumb.

[tracker]

Keep in mind they told MRC that no one had returned any defective ammo to them. Their answer to me was to send another box of bad ammo in return for mine. Denial and self justification is a killer in customer relations.

[MRC]

A few more thoughts.

I got the impression from the guy at Hornady that he personally had talked to only one customer about CD ammo and Rohrbaughs and was not talking about the whole company when he said that the customer was going to return tha ammo and did not.

The headspace on the ammo that fired in my gun was shorter than yours and fired but had strange looking primers.

I know that the firing pin penetration appears much shorter on all the ammo that I have fired in the R9 than with the PM9.  In fact these are the lightest hits I can ever remember on any handgun.  This has been a constant concern of mine in carrying this gun, but I have had no failures to fire yet.  It is still on my mind constantly and affecting my confidence.

[Reinz]

I know that the firing pin penetration appears much shorter on all the ammo that I have fired in the R9 than with the PM9.  In fact these are the lightest hits I can ever remember on any handgun.  This has been a constant concern of mine in carrying this gun, but I have had no failures to fire yet.  It is still on my mind constantly and affecting my confidence.

I know what you mean.  I own a lot of handguns.  And my R9's are the only ones that I have had to use the multiple strike feature on to detonate some rounds.

[tracker]

MRC,

Your confidence level will go up with practice and other ammo than CD. There is nothing that inspires confidence like success.

[kjtrains]

MRC,

Your confidence level will go up with practice and other ammo than CD. There is nothing that inspires confidence like success.

Excellent words, for sure!

[MRC]

I know what you mean.  I own a lot of handguns.  And my R9's are the only ones that I have had to use the multiple strike feature on to detonate some rounds.

I wish you good luck Reinz, but when a gun requires double strikes to fire, it does not go in my pocket any more.  I have others that go on the first pull always.  Just my opinion.

[Reinz]

I carry mulitiple guns, so it's not as big of an issue  to me as you would think.

Also, I KNOW that I am not the only one that has had this happened to.  Especially with two out of three guns so far.

[MRC]

Finally got to the Gunsmith's shop yesterday to check the headspace on the R9, Colt Pocket Nine, and the PM9 as a comparison.

The results are I suspected with all being well within specifications.  The chamber of the R9 was cut a little deeper than the PM9 but still within specs.  The Hornady CD ammo is on the "short side" of the tolerances also.  The result was about .010 inch free play which in my Gunsmith's opinion should not cause problems.

Soft primers could also be a factor but that is just speculation on our part.