Second time with my new R9s - problems!

[Guinnessdog]

I was back at the range yesterday after waiting a whole week since the first time I fired my new pup. Had a few problems the first time around, but had major headaches this time.

I added some skateboard tape to the front and back straps in the manner illustrated on R9 FAQ, and stoked it with 115gr Gold Dots. It was clean and well lubed. I maintained a very strong grip.

Almost without exception, I had feeding problems on the 3rd and 5th rounds. This occured with both magazines. I ran 110 rounds through it, and had malfunctions every magazinefull, with a few exceptions.

The malfunctions would look like this: the round would be stuck in the chamber at about a 45 degree angle, the nose of the bullet up and the base of the cartridge still in the magazine. What was interesting was that the breechface was riding up over the top of the round. In other words, the slide seemed to skip over the base of the cartridge as it pushed the round into the chamber, and then get stuck as the angle of the round going in got too great.

To me, this seemed to indicate that the magazine did not have enough time to present the cartridge before the slide began to strip the round off.

Interestingly, the problem became somewhat less frequent the longer I shot. My theory is that as the gun became more dirty, the slide velocity was slowed enough to allow the fresh round to be presented properly.

Any ideas? Comments? Suggestions?

[R9SCarry]

Welcome - I am sure I have not yet issued a greeting

Let me say I am disappointed for you - as it sounds as though all should be fine - tape, good grip etc.  As with any problem situation, I dearly wish I was able to grab the gun - shoot and inspect.

[size=13] My theory is that as the gun became more dirty, the slide velocity was slowed enough to allow the fresh round to be presented properly.[/size]

As matter of fact I think the opposite!  IMO when dirt slows slide then possibility of full excursion to rear is compromized due to drag and so greater chance that fresh round not picked up efficiently and potential for tip-up and jam.  Also less ''oomph'' to guarantee going into battery as well.  I can tho see some logic in thinking of the slowing aspect - but with that will go IMO a travel reduction - the more important aspect.

If this improved somewhat towards end of session I am thinking that the recoil spring easing in rate a shade could be a factor - so allowing slide to make greater rearward travel and then be better able to strip off top round properly - evening giving another msec or two for next round to fully rise up mag into position.

As slide comes back after firing it must glide over the next round which is compressed in mag' - this next step is part of a semi's critical timing and then distance travelled, velocity, dwell, all come into play.

Hard to say all this well in words - but just wish I could see that pup to evaluate.  115 GD's should be fine too    I have no further useful thoughts for now tho - sorry.

[sslater]

Guinnessdog,
+1 on R9SCarry's Welcome to the Forum.
A few observations based on my own experience (coming up on 550 rounds thru my R9S) and what R9SCarry has stated:
1. The Rohrbaugh is a very tightly fitted gun and really does need to be cleaned / lubed every 60 to 80 rounds. Otherwise, strange stuff happens.
2. You really have to keep after the recoil spring.  My first 200+ rounds were trouble-free.  I changed the spring a little early (Owner's manual recommends 250 rounds) because it had shortened up two full coils compared to a new spring.
  2A. Then my troubles started - several FTF exactly as you described.
  2B.  After 50 rounds or so, my R9S settled down - only an occasional FTF.  I think the recoil spring relaxed a bit.  So now I "exercise" a new spring before installing it.  50 cycles seem to shorten the spring about half a coil.
  2C.  We take it for granted, but there's a complex interaction between recoil spring tension, magazine spring tension, slide velocity, & lube/cleanliness.  
3.  I now stick with GDHP in 124 or 115 grain loading for carry.  And use mostly Blazer brass case FMJ fior practice, but try an occasional box of other premium stuff just to see what works reliably.
4.  I also have duct taped a hunk of wooden chopstick to my pocket holster.  To clear one of those jams you described, a good poke of the stick on the rim of the next round in the magazine allows the slide to nudge that goofy round into the chamber.  The stick can then be yanked out of the breech and you're good to go.  Just make sure that muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.

[Michigunner]

Guinnessdog, I would also like to welcome you.

Steve, thanks for the fine comments.

[Guinnessdog]

Thanks for the comments. I'm going to continue to shoot the pup and try different loads to hopefully sort out the problem.

Usually I could clear the jam by simply pulling back slightly on the slide until the breachface cleared the cartridge rim, then let the slide go to chamber the round. I will get myself a chopstick to aid clearing, sounds like a good trick.

What I found most puzzling is the first time out with the gun, I had 3 feeding malfunctions out of 50 rounds, the second time out it was like every 3 rounds would jam... I hope it is the spring. If it jams a lot the next time, I'll try the other spring that came with the gun. I don't believe in drawing too many conclusions until a gun is well broken in, but this was a factory refurb and the frame shows a fair amount of wear already, so I really don't think it is slide to frame tightness being the issue.

[GeorgeH]

Mickey Yurco also reported some problems. I saw him at the Wolverine knife show last month in Novi, Michigan.  These problems were not as common in the early guns, and are still uncommon for the most part, but when they do arise--the complaints are more alike than not.

We need to come-up with a way to track and solve these types of problems.

[harrydog]

I'm one of those who have had ongoing FTF problems with my gun. I have 320 rounds through it over about 8 range sessions, so break-in is not the issue.
It's been back to Rohrbaugh twice. This last time they changed out some parts on the recoil mechanism. I've been to the range once with it since then and fired 38 rounds all of which fed perfectly with the exception of the 6th round. That round entered the chamber but the gun didn't go fully into battery, but only by about 1/8th of an inch. Dropping the magazine caused the slide to go fully into battery. After that there were no further problems.
I'm reserving judgment until after another couple of range sessions. After having as much trouble with a gun as I've had with this one, it takes awhile to regain confidence in it, especially if it's a carry piece. I really hope it is now reliable for me.
What I would like to know is has there been anyone who has had a problem R9 who has shot someone else's R9 and had no problems with it? Conversely, has anyone with a trouble free R9 shot someone else's trouble prone R9 and found it to work perfectly?

[capt.koolaid]

Guiness Dog, You are not alone my friend! Lets work together on this! My "PUP" (spelled P.O.S.) is doing the same thing yours did. Ive researched this site and have been unable to find any "followups" to the NUMEROUS people that have had these issues so Im wondering if they were ever worked out.  Since my last post, I have cleaned and lubed mine as per ownersmanual, with the super-lube, and shot the wonderful Gold dots. I could not make it thru an entire magazine without a failure of some sort. After 100 rounds I tucked my tail between my legs and put the thing away, keeping my ear muffs on to drown out the "Dude, you paid how much for that?" hecklers, and polished of the rounds left with a Kel-Tec. Pretty sad when a gun less than half the price out performs the "pup"! Guess ya dont get what ya pay for! Yea, Im hoppin mad to say the least! I do apologize in advance for offending anyone however, It seems to me this "gun" has more than its share of "issues" and while im sure the "brothers" would make it right, after plunkin down $888.00 im not thrilled with the inconvienance to say the least! MR> ROHRBAUGH IF YOUR LISTENING: Ill gladly pay more money if you'll swap me out a gun that works. Like the one in the video.

[Michigunner]

capt.koolaid,

I don't blame you for being annoyed about the malfunctions.  I vividly remember the first firing of my new Beretta 92FS Inox at the CCW class.  It would not fire more than two consecutive rounds without failing.

Please remember that almost all owners have trouble-free performance.  Otherwise, we would have negative reports from many, many people.  The board would be swamped with complaints.

I know the factory folks will do their best to make it perform correctly.

Bill

[capt.koolaid]

Im totaly baffled at this point. I dont want to ship the gun back, ( shouldnt have to!)  >:(due to the fact it was a "factory reconditioned" gun in the first place so I would think Rohrbaugh already "fixed" anything needed fixed. It appears to be a rather old pistol, Serial number R-3##. Im curious Guiness dog, what serial number is yours? Supposedly our guns came from the same "reconditioned" lot, according to Aregos they were buy-backs that a "group of women owned who could not handle them".  At any rate, Ive heard on this forum of shipping the gun back for service, only to have it returned with the same problems. In addition, Ive already lost a great deal of confidence in this piece already.

I want this gun to work! BAD! thats why I got it! I own or have owned handguns from Sig, Beretta, Smith & Wesson, Glock, Ruger, Tauras, Rossi, Walther, Seecamp, Browning, Colt, Davis, Raven, Kel-Tec, Steyr, Heckler & Koch, Harrington & Richardson, Forehand & Wadsworth, North American arms, And a couple names I forget. Ive returned a few guns before, ( Davis, Kel-tec, Beretta, and a S&W.) The only company that ever "made it right" with me was Smith & Wesson.  Kel-Tec is great for customer service but the gun never worked right till I "tweaked" it.  I assume the R-9s been "broke in" by now as it was "used" when I got it, and thus far Ive shot approx 100-150 rds thru it. I guess the only thing left to due is either quit whinning and keep shooting, or ship it back but I must admit, Ive buyers remorse a go-go with this thing!

[capt.koolaid]

For those interested Ive shot the R-9 with some unique occurences Id like to share. First off, I dont think Im "limpwristing" but if any of these things ring true with that, Id like your feed-back.  At 243 pounds im hardly a small guy, and I wear a large size glove, ( are my hands too big?) I feel my grip strength is more than ample. The following are my malfunctions:

Lube issues: when I shot the gun the first time, It was lubed from the factory. Nothing feed except Gold-dots. I only fired one mag of Gold-Dots and that was after everything else failed. After that I ran out of range time. So I left. It should be noted Winchester 147 grain L.E.O. SXTs would NOT feed at all.

I cleaned and lubed the pistol, then lubed with super-lube as per the owners manual instructions and info from the forum here. Then I shot it. this time NOTHING would feed. This includes the famed "Gold-Dots".

I cleaned the pistol again but did not lube it in ANY way. No grease, oil, or anything. I then shot it again. This time it worked very well! even the Winchester 147 grain L.E.O. SXTs would feed! towards the end however, the gun began jamming.

I then cleaned and lubed it with only gun oil, and the first magazine of Gold-Dots ran fine. After that, it went back to jamming. It would appear this gun functions best with NO lubrication of any kind! I know this to be in contrast to manufactures instructions however, Im desperate at this point.

The malfunctions were the typical 3rd or 4th rounds, sometimes it would be the second round. usually they were failure to feeds, with a couple rounds standing straightup in the magazine looking skyward. On a couple occasions, the round would remain in the magazine and the weapon would cycle, however when I thought I had a  hang-fire, opening the chamber revealed no round in it with rounds remaining in the magazine. In addition, thier were a couple hangfires with indented primers, but failure of ignition, and on a couple occasions, the magazine would drop out of the weapon despite being fully seated.

Both magazines were used with one being slighty better in performance than the other, however both certainly had thier share of "jams". I dont think my hand bumped the mag release during recoil to jettison the mags and im sure they were fully seated before firing. In addition, the mag catch seems to be rather postive so Ive no idea what that issue is!. Im certain the ammo was o.k. and from good stock as it was testfired in other weapons without fail, AND the Winchesters were approx two years old!  Any suggestions?

[Ubik380]

Could be:
1- A result of limpwristing or grip alignment (Maybe but probably not). Test this by having others fire the gun, see if they have the same problems.
2- Bullet misfeeding due to length or shape. FMJ should always work, so I'd use this for testing until the issue is resolved.
3- Mis-timing of the bullet feeding process: I'd bet on this one.

As the makers of small 1911 autos found, timing is a tricky matter. It involves the magazine presenting the round at the right time and proper angle, and the slide opening the ejection port at the right time and for enough time for the case/cartridge swap to occur. The extraction has to be delayed until the chamber pressure has dropped but soon enough and quick enough so that the ejection port opens all the way.

If not lubricating seems to improve the situation, try a stiffer recoil spring. An unlubricated gun is an unstable dynamic system, while the recommended grease will keep carbon and other particles in suspension, making the system dynamically consistent for a longer time. I might even stretch one of the magazine springs a little to get the cartridge in position faster. But you don't want too much pressure in the magazine which could slow down the slide when it drages on the next cartridge in the stack.

Try one solution at a time and give yourself a way to go back to the beginning. Good luck!

[capt.koolaid]

More testing is in order to be sure. Ive been trying FMJ ammo as well with similar results. Ive also passed it around and so far, out of 4 of us shooting it, one guy has been able to get thru 3 magazines without a jam. He wouldnt shoot anymore than that due to it being "uncomphortable" for him. IM puzzled by this though and he has agreed to acompany me on another outing. we shall see. Im not sure if its a timing issue how that could be repaired, and as far as stronger recoil springs, Im unable to locate any. Only source I know is Rohrbaugh but i will try the other spring supplied with the gun.

Im leary of the limpwrist agrument because I have a Kel-Tec P-40 that was unreliable and the common response was the limpwrist arguement. I replaced the recoil springs and magazine followers however and the gun worked fine.

Seems to be a common denominator with unreliable guns. They always sight limpwristing and improper lube as culprits. Outside of the Kel-Tec, this is the only gun Ive owned were grease was recomended. Im convinced if kel-tec had used wolff 22 pound recoil springs and a 9mm follower in thier P-40 it would have been recieved much more favorably.

Likewise, Im convinced the R-9 is a great idea, with good construction. If It only worked for me id be delighted!

[Guinnessdog]

As I write this, the intrepid Jack Bauer is once again saving America from evil terrorists and a feckless President. Perhaps if he was packing an R9, everything would turn out differently...

Anyway, I just got back from the range, having run 140 rounds thru the pup in my third session with my new (used - it was a factory refurb, # 168) tool. Things went much better this time, but not flawlessly.

I checked the length of the recoil spring against the spare that came with the gun. It was one full coil shorter than the unused one, so I swapped it out. I was hoping this was the source of the problems.

I had 50 rounds of 115gr WWB ball. I fired these first. Round #3 did not go all the way into the chamber, but a light push on the back of the slide sent it home, and I burned up the rest of the box without any problems until round #48, which also didn't quite go home. Again, a light push and the round went into the chamber. I may have limp-wristed that one, I was getting a little giddy by this point so I may have lapsed concentration.

At this point I'm thinking "The spring is the thing!"

I then switched to the 40 rounds of 115gr Gold Dots I had on hand. These did not fare so well. The 4th round in every magazine failed to go fully into battery. These were not the hard-to-clear jams that I had previously experienced, but simply a round not going all the way in. Sometimes they hardly left the magazine, but always I could clear the malfunction by simply pulling back on the slide and letting it go.

It could be that this gun simply does not like Gold Dots. I'm not particularly troubled by this, as I'm amazed any gun will feed these bullets. They have a very long and relatively straight ogive, which seems to catch on anything. However, it is odd that the jams always occured on the 4th round in the magazine. This leads me to believe the magazines are somehow suspect. Tired springs?

I then burned up 50 rounds of Agila 115gr ball. I had two failures to go fully into battery in the last few rounds. By now the gun was very gunky, so I would attribute those failures to the fact that the gun was very dirty.

As an aside, this ammo seemed very "hot" in comparison to the WWB and Gold Dots. Maybe it was, or maybe my hand was getting sore by then.

So where does that leave me? Once again, further testing is required. I'm going to shop around a bit and find every different decent hollowpoint I can find. I'm encouraged, but not confident. Reliability in a defensive arm is critical. I want a gun that goes bang every time.

Clearly, the recoil spring and magazine springs are critical pieces in the puzzle. I'm going to lay in a supply of springs and swap them out frequently.

Egad! Chloe has an ex-husband!

[capt.koolaid]

Thanks for the update Guiness dog! Its nice to see someone following up on thier issue. I too have had more "testing". Like you, Im not thrilled with the gold-dot or its performance in the R-9. My last test was with 25 rounds of Blazer 115 grain. It worked flawless so now im REALY confused. Im rapidly approaching the 250 round limit for this spring and dont wanna break in a new one but im glad it worked this well.

It doesnt sit well with me getting excited over a gun costing this much going thru three magazines trouble free but, id be happy if it would be reliable the first mag thru, every time since I dont carry extra mags for it. At anyrate, ive got one or two more "tests" planned, then ill make a decision as to either keep it, or dump it. ill probably fire off 50 rounds or so wednesday, then another 50 next week. Those will be the tell tale rounds.

Even though it was a factory re-furb, it didnt appear to have been shot alot. (at all) so im wondering if it needed a "break-in".