The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: cargaritaville on September 27, 2014, 03:37:33 PM
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I just got back home from the local Gun Show. I decided that I would ask 20 individuals whom I have dealt with over the years, and whose opinions I value when it comes to firearms advice, what they carry personally as their trusted carry piece. The results are as follows:
1.) .45 cal.-12
2.) .40 cal-5
3.) 9mm-1
4.) .357 mag-1
5.) 44 mag.-1
A number of these individuals are ex law enforcement and military. Their attitudes all seemed to be the same…sometimes you're only going to get one shot off…it had better be good, and lethal. Interesting.
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I would imagine that by the nature of their job experience, military and LEO opinions would be weighted in favor of larger calibers (and larger handguns with longer sight pictures) because the engagements more common to LEO and military would often be at greater distances than the average citizen would expect (assuming reasonable use of situational awareness to avoid conflict, an option not available to the military and LEO in their line of work).
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I'm quite surprised to see that many big calibers.
All I have been reading lately says shot placement, penetration and permanent wound cavity in that order. Of course .45 in a good platform doesn't necessarily "muzzle flip" like .40 and even 9 in some small packages.
If I carried OWB I would feel more comfortable carrying a bigger piece, but being an average citizen I try to be a bit more concealed. That may be part of the equation. If I carried OWB for 30 years I doubt I would change as I migrated into more of a civilian role. Some may even still be working some security or still thinking like a cop (I would).
Interesting insights to me.
I also have read in the Glock magazine lately that more departments are going to the .45. Perhaps a trend that's been in the making for a while.
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Also, the 9mm cartridge wound cavity ballistics are quite different than they were a few years ago.
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The first gun I was taught to shoot with was a Colt Gold Cup National Match 45. It was beautiful to handle and very accurate to shoot. I miss it. I am very accurate with a 45. My accuracy deteriorates with each lower caliber. With a .25, I cannot hit a bus. I am the most accurate with a 44 magnum or a 357 magnum. I am extremely comfortable at not over anticipating the boom. With lower calibers, I feel like the firearm is going to fly off. The big guys don't fly off…they stand their ground. I think that I am going to look into a Colt Defender to carry. I have a Springfield Armory XDS 45 that is still unfired. It's light and looks like a squirt gun I had as a kid. What was I thinking? I just bought a new Sig P220 Carry Elite Stainless 45. My new toy for the range…need a hand truck with it to carry it CCW.
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I have a weak kneed fondness for the Colt Gold Cup NM, especially the 70 Series; right behind it is the Browning High Power 9mm.
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I would say 9mm is the best but that is my opinion (ret. military), in fact my last 6 deployments the M9s we had were 9mm. Maybe I am bias or I just own too many. ;D
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Shot placement, penetration.
That's it.
I use 9mm.
Be cool. Accept death. That is the ideal of personal combat.
-No kidding.
It is much easier to just hand over your stuff. Why do you want to fight over a few bucks? You will not be responsible for your credit cards. You can get a new driver's license online...
If you elect to deploy a handgun, you will step up to the big leagues.
I posted this report recently.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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I don't recall hearing anyone say that the loss of watch, wallet, money clip, car, or other replaceable items are worth a violent encounter if otherwise avoidable. There is no doubt that one's life will change forever if anyone is shot in a gunfire exchange even if it is legal and/or unavoidable. The price of concealed carry can be quite heavy if exercised in a situation. Conversely, not many of us want to become a victim if we can prevent it.
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I will agree, you can have my stuff, but when my or my families life is on the line things change. If you ever deploy your weapon, you better be ready to use it, hopefully I will only deploy my R9 at the range for practice.
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The problem with a strong-arm robbery for the armed individual is that along with your watch and wallet the attacker will very possibly get your firearm and may then use it on you.
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For me, the operative word in the CCW acronym is "concealed." When wearing clothing permitting me completely to conceal a handgun chambered for .45 ACP, I do so. Even then, I have the 9mm R9 in my right front pocket. In response to the subject question my answer would therefore be the largest caliber one can effectively conceal.
Edit: Corrected typo.
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I definitely want to be concealed too.
Thinking of this .45 post, I ended up with my XDS out at the range today along with my solo.
Perhaps the next important question to ask is "how many rounds are best to carry?". Obviously as many as you can, but with the threat of something weird going down evolving daily, would you anticipate one attacker or two or do I just watch too much tv? Is a mag in the handgun and a spare in the pocket enough? I feel as though it is, but unless I'm carrying a double stack Glock I don't like less than 2 mags.
Is anyone else thinking he may be more likely to deploy a handgun on a terrorist than an armed robber or other threat? I know I may look weird for asking, but it does cross my mind.
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No.
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No.
For civilian CCW, one magazine in the piece and a spare in the pocket.
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Well I am somewhat comforted to hear you guys aren't too concerned about the terror situation. I do live in a metro area, but sometimes it's good to hear other's perspectives. Thanks for the feedback.
Also good to know the spare single stack in the pocket should be plenty. I really don't want to be cumbered about with more than that.
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I heard that ISIS is rebuilding some refineries and have cancelled their planned invasion of Indianapolis.
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I think some of your buddies with wings may have had a little something to do with that change of plans.
Well we all know that we already have radicals living here in the states. Who knows what tomorrow will bring?
Reminds me of a verse of scripture...
Don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will worry about itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof.
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And besides, if in the ordinary course of civilian life I can't handle a "crisis situation" with 6+6, I figure I'm pretty well screwed anyway.
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While this may not be your most poetic posts Richard I think it may sum up the way it is quite effectively and efficiently.
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Ok here is an opinion about compact or ultra compact pistols and their effectiveness. Please let me know if I error in some of these surmisings.
Based on this excellent link that Douglas posted newtab:http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
It seems that what the fbi and other law agencies have deduced from their extensive studies is that the 3 main components for stopping a threat are
1) shot placement
2) penetration (minimum of 12")
3) permanent wound cavity
...in that order.
With that thought I looked at 3 popular compact carry guns (solo 9, shield .40, and XDS .45) in 3 different popular rounds on Bruce's mouse gun addict blog.
The results make me shy away from the .45 in the compact platform personally
It appears that either the .45 didn't expand therefore making it a gross over penetrator or when it did expand it fell short of the 12" desired minimum penetration.
The particular ammo used in both the 9mm and .40 expanded and penetrated wonderfully.
My take away is that with the proper ammunition a 9 is an excellent choice based on the following reasons...
1) Lots of rounds and it's the most accurate for me to shoot from a small platform = shot placement (hopefully)
2) the +p golden sabers were penetrating very well At 17.75" through 4 layers of denim and gel
3) the Average expansion of .524 was answering the wound cavity problem better than a non expanded .45
Looks like a 9 mm is a very effective weapon with the proper ammo and decent shot placement. I wonder if the venerable .45 in the short barrel (probably all changes with a full size 1911) is just not as effective as the 9 or .40 (while using hollow points) based upon the fbi criteria.
Thoughts?
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Analizis the average self defense situation -
It's close in, and it happens fast. The truth is the best defense is 'Situational awareness' (avoid the conflict). But, if you can't, at least don't have a hair trigger, jam-a-matic in your pocket. You need a pull and shoot gun. I prefer DA/SA types. I had an LC9, but the safety was too hard to get off.
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That's interesting. In the recent hospital shooting the defending Doctor used the .32 Seecamp and was able with the help of others to stop his attacker. I'll bet he was happy he had a .32 Seecamp. And if that's all he could deep conceal daily into the hospital then more power to the .32 Seecamp. However in retrospect IF I had a was not working in a hospital environment and had the ability to carry a firearm large enough to utilize a .380 or better yet a 9mm it seems as though a potentially bad deal of having his attacker conscious and able to reload or ??????????
And all of this is after being shot 3 times with the .32 Seecamp.
Seems like a handgun battle in close quarters is risky business. I think that if a bigger, dependable firearm is available I want it. If not I'll take what I can get. Even if it is my Seecamp .32.
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I think that any caliber is better than none at all. I would rather have my 25cal than nothing. I prefer my R9 but sometimes that is just too big or I don't want to risk losing it due to my location.
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Agreed.
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I've never owned a .25...was told years ago by someone who should know that the .25 was more likely to irritate an attacker, especially one wearing heavier clothing, than to incapacitate him...the fellow though a .22 magnum would actually be a better round. Anybody have any real info on this thought?
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I hear that, but I don't really like depending on a rim fire cartridge. That being said, I do still have a NAA little 22 mag.
I think I will look on Bruce's mouse gun addict to see penetration on a 22 mag vs a 25 acp.
I know the .22 mag doesn't expand well, but a .25 would probably require a head shot to protect against a serious attacker IMO.
I think their are enough other decent little .380 and bigger guns that the conversation shouldn't have to take place.
I would still take a 22 Magnum, 25 ACP, or 32 ACP over nothing though if it came down to it.
The .22 mag and .32 acp fmj far surpass the .25 acp in penetration according to Bruce's ammo tests. The .25 reputation is well deserved from the looks of it.
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Jeff Cooper summed up his thoughts on a 25 ACP for protection this way:
"Your attacker having a face full of 25 slugs will probably give you an advantage in the fist fight that occurs after the gun fight."
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The men kicked in the locked door, and the mother, armed with a .25-caliber handgun, demanded that they leave. When they refused, police said, the mother shot Mendez in the abdomen as he came toward her.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/crystal-lake-cary/chi-intruder-shot-by-homeowner-near-crystal-lake-20140903-story.html
;)
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There was probably at least 3 inches of fat penetration in his abdomen.
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I read an article where a woman shot an intruder in the head with a .25 and he died. I think it was in FL. I'll try to find the article. I still want more than that if practical. The Kahr .380 is a decent handgun and not much (if any) larger than a lot if .32's aside from the Seecamp.
I would take the Kahr .380 over any small handgun I think
A 9mm would certainly be much more effective as long as you always have it and you can hit what your aiming at.
I guess these are elementary observations. Sorry.
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A head shot is a different matter. About 30 years or so ago a childhood friend of mine was found dead in a motel room with a single shot between the eyes from a .25. His killer was never found but there was a female suspect.
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To quote my gunsmith: "More people have been iced with a .38 Special and a 9mm than anything else." Other than a Glock 36, which is a bit too heavy for CC, I don't see many viable options for pocket carry other than 9mm.
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DO NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO IF YOU HAVE A WEEK STOMACH. SERIOUSLY.
http:-REMOVED-
This is an interesting and informative (yet graphic) video done by a doctor who has worked on many patients with gunshot wounds.
Most of it isn't graphic. If you are interested but don't want to see it there are warnings of when the scene will get ugly.
More than ever, I hope I never have to use a firearm to defend my family.
Duane, feel free to remove this if you want to.
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I don't have a weak stomach but I don't need to look at it, either.
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I am alright that I saw it once. I don't want to ever see something like that again.
If you are a veteran or an LE agent and have witnessed such gruesome things in life I am all the more humbled at your service to our country and communities.
If folks find it offensive I do not mind it being removed.
The data contained was very relative to the topic I feel.
It really helped me to think in a different (more serious) way about the concealed carry permit I have and the weapon I holster, not to mention what would happen to one of my children if they were involved in an accident.
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Relevant? Yes.
Appropriate? No.
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I will take it off then. Sorry Tracker.
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Thanks, Josh.
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No problem. I confess I posted it with mixed emotions. I appreciate you giving your honest opinion. I think you are right, it's best.
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I did not watch it, but did not need to do so, having seen it all before (and sometimes I still awaken with mild PTS issues, not from my military experience, but from my training in a big city emergency room!).
Nevertheless, I grew up at an age where the cowboys and detectives fired 30 rounds without loading, and the bad guys all fell dead without a groan or even with any evidence of real injury or blood. The good guys got a "flesh wound" and were back in action in 5 minutes. People got hit on the head with a club or a gun but and were up and at 'em in just a few minutes. My generation had no clue what it is really like...THAT JUST ISN'T THE WAY IT WORKS!
I personally feel a video similar to this might just be the best thing for any prospective carrier of a weapon, concealed or not. It would work both ways inasmuch as the person would now have an understanding of the consequences of shooting a human being, but would also have a crystal clear awareness of the consequences of losing a gun gunfight through timidity. Just sayin'
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I don't disagree with you but there are multiple youtubes in other venues showing all of the gore anybody wants to see, including beheadings and such. It just doesn't seem appropriate to air all of this wisdom on this forum, but 'tis only my opinion.
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I like 9mm.
Most of the shootings we've had were quick stops, or DRT; every one that I can remember was low round count.
So I'm generally satisfied.
We use a round that many keyboard commandos claim is ineffective, because it has an anecdotal "history" of penetrating more than expanding. It has been very effective for us.
The truly ironic part of it is, we use the load we do because somewhere in the distant past (and I remember when) an administrator chose it because it wasn't supposed to "over penetrate."
I'm also a big .38 special fan. We still use FBI loads, with a potential switch to the NY load on the horizon. I've shot both and am comfortable with either.
Either way, I plead guilty to getting tied up in internal knots over "how many rounds is enough." It sometimes keeps me from carrying the J frame that I love as a primary.
Sometimes it doesn't.
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What ammo do you carry Douglas?
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147 grain Hydra Shoks.
They're subsonic, so they won't over penetrate. ;)
That's what people said back then.
They run great in the R9! 8)
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* Situational Awareness - Avoid the conflict
* Get the upper hand - Don't go head-to-head, wait until their guard is down
* A dependable gun - A double action pocket gun with no safety
* Caliber - At Self Defense distances, it's not critical
The R9 seems pretty close to the ideal pocket gun. If you go to a holstered gun, then there a lot of good choices. A Kimber Ultra 9mm isn't bad. As far as caliber, my car gun is a Browning HP 9mm. I got to think that range time is important because it tests a gun dependability, and you get familiar with a certain gun.
At the end of the day, I carry a 32 seecamp, because of size, safety and dependability.
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I'm also a big .38 special fan. We still use FBI loads, with a potential switch to the NY load on the horizon. I've shot both and am comfortable with either.
Either way, I plead guilty to getting tied up in internal knots over "how many rounds is enough." It sometimes keeps me from carrying the J frame that I love as a primary.
Sometimes it doesn't.
A bit of followup, for my area, at least:
I tell you what: I've been watching some recent surveillance videos of robberies. That is, a bunch.
My opinion? 5 rounds may just be enough.
The robberies tend to be strong arm. Some do have weapons, but largely not. They are four or five young guys (men or boys, depending on whether you are a reasonable person, or the NY Times) pounding the hell out of a victim who should have known it was coming, but usually seems to have have chosen (that's CHOSEN) not to recognize their situation.
The repeated scenario: five male blacks surround a victim in some public place at midnight. The victim does not react at all. (Maybe they think that to do so would be racist?) So they don't react at all; like the bad guys are not there. No kidding. It's bizarre.
Then the bad guys beat the crap out of the victim and take his stuff.
Now obviously (here, at least) you can't shoot them all. They are not "armed."
Afterwards, you will have shot "five unarmed black teens."
We've all seen these situations repeatedly; and I've seen for two-plus decades what it would be spun as.
But if you had to shoot one of them, I believe (my opinion, based on how "flighty" the perps generally appear) it would disrupt the robbery, and the rest would flee. And that is defensible.
If you have to fight multiple perps armed with firearms, there seems almost no way you could prevail.
You may survive, if you're lucky.
But... you can't use suppressive fire to move to cover or escape, since naturally you are responsible for every round fired.
So are they of course. But they don't care.
Even if you have a "reasonable" amount of ammunition... if they have guns, they have that, times three or more...
...and they don't worry about stray rounds.
I'm beginning to think that five rounds isn't as crazy as it sounds. :-\
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Just curious, why would you prefer a .38 over a Glock 26 for instance?
I don't shoot my j frame very well.
The Glock 26/27 is more accurate, very reliable, more ammo, faster reloads (I usually don't carry a backup mag when using a double stack though), thinner. This doesn't even touch on the trigger issue. Also lighter unless the j is an airweight snub nose) and then I really don't shoot that well due to recoil and the short barrel.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are other good semi auto options to be used as an example, but the G26/27 came to mind due to its popularity with LE.
You are obviously seasoned and have a reason for your liking to the J frame. Not trying to do more than figure out your train of thought. Thanks sir.
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Josh,
I think nutnfancy on YouTube calls it "the second kind of cool" or something similar. He means when you use something just because you like it. I do like the wheelgun for lots of reasons, many that are completely emotional.
Rationally, I think you're exactly right: besides ease of carry, there's very little to justify a J over a G. Once you actually need the gun, that very little may even shrink to nothing at all.
That's why I spend too much time thinking about it. There's what you know, what you think, what you wish, what you're not sure of... It all competes for primacy when making choices. I'm as guilty as anyone of doing things that I know are probably not the smartest things to do. :o
Doug
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If I may add a comment or 2, Josh...
As you know, not all J frames are air weights. I personally believe that the air weight revolver with +P or .357 is a major contributor to many peoples' belief that J frames are inaccurate. The dreaded "flinch" during the long trigger pull is easily developed simply because of the pain of shooting a hot round out of a gun that was designed more for "carrying comfort" than shooting consistency. Weight = shock absorption. Lack of shock absorption = flinch. It's very difficult to overcome the mental aspect of the anticipation of pain. For every 10 rds. fired that were painful...I'd guess it might take 50 rds of no pain to erase the damage from the mind.
Additionally, the "inaccuracy" seems to be more from practicing more with short trigger pull semi autos than with the longer pull guns like revolvers, Rohrbaugh and Seecamp semis.
Just guessing here but if the same thought process and care was used in firing a lighter recoil ammo in a revolver as would be used in a R9 or Seecamp 32, much of the inaccuracy would disappear.
A side benefit to practicing double action only with revolvers is that when the long, straight trigger pull becomes accurate, just about all firearms will be more accurate because of muscle memory re-enforcement.
I've found all of the above to be true for me...you may find differently.
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I get it Douglas. I was kind of thinking it had to do with an overall attachment to the old school favorite of so many for whatever reason rather than pure scientific blah, blah, blah.
Thanks for the candid answer. I have the same thing going on. Constantly trying to balance between wants, needs and how it all comes together.
That being said, I would say you are making a smart decision if you decided to carry your j frame. You are carrying an effective handgun you like and have a confidence will take care of you and yours in a bad situation. I respect that.
Thanks for the help sir.
Oh also, I really like nut-n-fancy. He does a very good job in his reviews IMO. Very thorough. The only thing I don't relate to is that he doesn't really review from a EDC in a metro environment as much as in the desert on his really cool course decked out in fatigues. I really like him though.
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If I may add a comment or 2, Josh...
As you know, not all J frames are air weights. I personally believe that the air weight revolver with +P or .357 is a major contributor to many peoples' belief that J frames are inaccurate. The dreaded "flinch" during the long trigger pull is easily developed simply because of the pain of shooting a hot round out of a gun that was designed more for "carrying comfort" than shooting consistency. Weight = shock absorption. Lack of shock absorption = flinch. It's very difficult to overcome the mental aspect of the anticipation of pain. For every 10 rds. fired that were painful...I'd guess it might take 50 rds of no pain to erase the damage from the mind.
Additionally, the "inaccuracy" seems to be more from practicing more with short trigger pull semi autos than with the longer pull guns like revolvers, Rohrbaugh and Seecamp semis.
Just guessing here but if the same thought process and care was used in firing a lighter recoil ammo in a revolver as would be used in a R9 or Seecamp 32, much of the inaccuracy would disappear.
A side benefit to practicing double action only with revolvers is that when the long, straight trigger pull becomes accurate, just about all firearms will be more accurate because of muscle memory re-enforcement.
I've found all of the above to be true for me...you may find differently.
Thanks Hedrock. Makes sense. I wasn't trying to call all j frames inaccurate really. Just saying that a true carry size (debatable term) .38 with a double action trigger, 5 shots, short barrel, short site radius and no recoil spring would be hard for this guy to shoot well compared to a good auto.
I see your points as valid though and also understand some guys just like revolvers and can shoot them well. And if we are talking magnums, they have an unrivaled (unless we are talking about one of MRC's or Richard's little beauties) ability to deliver much force to their destination.
Great points you make IMO. I'll bet I could shoot pretty good at a piece of paper with some practice, but multi shots while moving at multi targets out of a comfortable, concealed holster carry scenario... I think I know why militaries and LE have donned reliable semis.
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Just about the only reason ANY gun is inaccurate should be first attributed to "operator error." Many say Glocks are accurate...but certainly not for me. Eight or so years ago when I switched away from Glock, it was like walking into a new world. But...that's me.
My hand is small and the contours of certain rubber grips on say, a 940 S&W mate up perfectly. The smaller Glocks like the 26 & 27 fit very well for several guys I know...but they also say the 940 fits them better. But, they still carry the Glock because they've decided that they were more mentally comfortable with more rds. and spare mags. I get that completely...and agree in the case of R9s which I shoot as well as the snub wheelies.
It's interesting to note that the sight radius is close to the same. Moon clips can be close to as fast as mags to reload in 9mm. But, don't forget...in all probability...very few rounds will be fired.
Police and military are challenged with a completely different set of circumstances than we, as non-authority wielding citizens are including parts , service and commonality of mags and ammo for operations involving more than just one person.
Other folks that I've talked to seem to make a lot of their decisions based on what their clothing must be for their jobs. I'm fortunate in that I can dress any way I want, so I don't need to make concessions in concealing a firearm...within reason, of course.
Note: The ONLY reason I don't carry my R9 is simple...I don't want to lose it because of a need to protect self and others. I can get another 940...not so with a unique R9. The same is true with some special # Seecamps...I carry the one I own that's "off the shelf" when I'm forced to go that small. Just sentimental, I guess... :-[
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I like the 940.
I couldn't argue with ya. Sounds like everybody has preferences and that's great. Keeps the gun market spinning : )
My problem is that I have too many preferences. Haha. I get pulled this way and that. I guess i will settle in one day soon (I hope).
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I can honestly say that its taken me a loooong time of intense experimentation, practice, hearing the latest, greatest whoop-t-do gizmo (or so "everybody says") and settle in on what works for me and convince my wonderlustful eyes to shut up,do as you're told and watch the front sight. ;D
I guess my self talk goes something like: ten-HUT....eyes FRONT!!!...STOP DROOLING !! Get your hands OUT of your pockets !!! ;)
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Oh also, I really like nut-n-fancy. He does a very good job in his reviews IMO. Very thorough. The only thing I don't relate to is that he doesn't really review from a EDC in a metro environment as much as in the desert on his really cool course decked out in fatigues. I really like him though.
That's funny. We're as urban as can be here, and I watch him run around out there and think, "How great would it be if I could just do that?"
But of course, you're right: covering the Bernie Goetz scenario, he ain't.
(-Who did, by the way, just fine with 5 rounds in a situation thirty years ago that was almost exactly what I described and is still the common one here today.) :-X
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When my seecamp started coughing (crap ammo), then I bought a SW 642. Inaccurate, nasty recoil, and certainly no pocket gun. And it had to go to SW to replace a bad firing pin. I can see an auto going click, click, but not a revolver.
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Keep in mind that Bernie Goetz fired a S&W.38 Special when they were high quality and well made revolvers. According to my expert gunsmith of 35 years the S&W revolver quality today, particularly the internals, is inferior to that of 30 or 40 years ago.
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Keep in mind that Bernie Goetz fired a S&W.38 Special when they were high quality and well made revolvers. According to my expert gunsmith of 35 years the S&W revolver quality today, particularly the internals, is inferior to that of 30 or 40 years ago.
I have a 90 yr old Broomhandle, and the quality is amazing. The machine work was done before CNCs, or visual readouts. Today's guns are polymer, with stamped metal inserts. The old 1911s and Browning HPs are way past 50,000 rounds, and it's all minor repairs to keep them running.
The 1911s are still the gun of choice for SWAT, and any active agency.
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Keep in mind that Bernie Goetz fired a S&W.38 Special when they were high quality and well made revolvers. According to my expert gunsmith of 35 years the S&W revolver quality today, particularly the internals, is inferior to that of 30 or 40 years ago.
Perhaps.
My revolvers, Smith and Colt, have run between fifteen and forty-some years old. I wouldn't buy a new Smith with a lock for a number of reasons, but I wouldn't have much concern about a non-lock one made inside the last thirty years going bang when I pressed the trigger.
In Bernie's case, he certainly didn't ask anything particularly challenging from his snub; it's not like the shooting was after weeks in the desert or the jungle. I have no doubt that, with some time machine shenanigans, we could put a c.2000 model Bodyguard in his hands and the result would have been the same.
Even more (and admitting that I don't know what load Goetz used,) as a rule the ammunition available today is far superior to what was common then.
No, for me snub-related concerns center almost entirely on capacity. I expect it to fire, and I have no problem with accuracy, but on a two way range five shots doesn't inspire confidence.
As discussed, it probably is enough for personal protection, but oh boy, no one wants to find out the hard way that it wasn't. Something happened around here last night (I was not involved) that had me get up, toss the .38 and speed loader I was carrying back into the gun cabinet and pull out a Glock.
Who knows? You pays your money and you takes your chances, I guess. :)
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If you have to fight multiple perps armed with firearms, there seems almost no way you could prevail.
You may survive, if you're lucky.
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I tend to agree.
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?topic=3404.msg36724;topicseen#msg36724
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If you have to fight multiple perps armed with firearms, there seems almost no way you could prevail.
You may survive, if you're lucky.
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I tend to agree.
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/index.php?topic=3404.msg36724;topicseen#msg36724
Oh my. I remember that story! Your wife is, of course, probably right. If you had produced a weapon, and failed to kill every single one of the new arrivals, you would be dead.
Maybe you would have gotten them though. My money is on you.
-You have balls of the finest brass sir! I salute you. 8)
This is here, last night.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/tortoise/airship.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tortoise/media/airship.jpg.html)
Ghetto bird!!! He hovered there for thirty minutes, a frankly stunning period based on my training and experience. He orbited for an hour-plus. That means, "We're serious."
Who says that they're "solar-powered"?!?! ;)
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Those of us who weren't there can only imagine what things were flying through your mind with that going on... :o :o With all the information about your surrounding area, people, history...W O W !! Sleep much after that??
Have you found out what the commotion was about?
If it happens again, call me - I'll let you borrow my Vietnam era trench gun - with bayonet attached - has a FANTASTIC visual impact. 8) 8)
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Sent PM Douglas.
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Those of us who weren't there can only imagine what things were flying through your mind with that going on... :o :o With all the information about your surrounding area, people, history...W O W !! Sleep much after that??
Have you found out what the commotion was about?
If it happens again, call me - I'll let you borrow my Vietnam era trench gun - with bayonet attached - has a FANTASTIC visual impact. 8) 8)
I appreciate the offer, we're covered! 8)
Obviously a perp search, but I was off, not my call, no radio, so no idea of the details.
The worst part was that we weren't out on it. -And the best part was that we weren't out on it. ;)
Either way, no big deal.
The only thing that made it worthy of note was the extended hover. I mention it here because that made me ponder how, had I walked up to the store for milk, I might have ended up in the middle of whatever.
And that would be just fine, but I know I'd chuckle an, "Of course..." to myself if I had the snub on me instead of one of the semi autos. ???
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Whatsa matter U ????? You don't like the "heart in your throat" feeling???
And he answers...YES !!! I DO love my "heart in my throat" ;D ;D ;D
I had guessed you were retired LEO....didn't know you were still having fun.
Thank you for your service.
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Douglas:
What Hedrok just said. Thank you indeed for your service. Stay safe and "watch six."
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Thanks for the kind words fellas. :-[
-Entirely unnecessary, I'm just a cog in a wheel.
I do have the time to retire, but what would I do then, get a job? ;)
I'm kidding. I'm fortunate to be in a spot that I love and have some success.
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Special Ops in NYC is not just a cog in the wheel in my book; especially, for now at least, since my two granddaughters round trip across Central Park to and from school almost every day.
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Thumbs. That's all I have going for me.
If the dog could drive, I'd be out on my butt. ;D
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Don't forget that you can always retire but you can't always go to full hover.
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...you can't always go to full hover.
No one has ever even let me try. :'(
When we've been lucky enough to get a ride, we pretty much just sit in the back. Some crews that were very accustomed to canines on board were comfortable with a head poked up front; others... less so. Also depends on the type, I suppose. Obviously, some are pretty tight.
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Do you train Malinois?
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We have some GSD/Mal mixes in the unit. Off the top of my head, I don't think we have any straight Mallies right now. Many of the other agencies that we train/train with certainly do. A buddy of mine in another unit just re-treaded with a Dutchie.
Better him than me!
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A good friend bred Mallies in N.C. but I think they became too much for her to handle, especially long distance.
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I've seen them really "wired for sound" and I've worked with some that were very laid back (still high drive workers.)
On a detail with U.S. Secret Service Uniformed Division, they had a bunch of single purpose Mals that would search all day, but were lambs to be around. Really nice dogs.
I see that I've really taken this topic far afield. Sorry folks.
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Oh, no...No apology needed!! THAT'S why this forum is so valuable. Great back & forth conversations that are kind of between more informed folks and those who are not so informed. We can "listen in"...but don't need to prove we don't know what we don't know ???
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Well, thank you.
I have been trying to take Josh, et al's advice and try to contribute more to keep things lively here. But... this is cargaritaville's thread on the best caliber for CCW, not about dogs, or counter-terror, or the City of New York and its metro area. That's on me.
Next time I think I'll try to remember to start another thread on whatever the digression is. Maybe that'll work even better for the forum; more thread count! :)
So, let's reset, especially since I'm still trying to influence a policy change relative to this stuff.:
I just got back home from the local Gun Show. I decided that I would ask 20 individuals whom I have dealt with over the years, and whose opinions I value when it comes to firearms advice, what they carry personally as their trusted carry piece. The results are as follows:
1.) .45 cal.-12
2.) .40 cal-5
3.) 9mm-1
4.) .357 mag-1
5.) 44 mag.-1
A number of these individuals are ex law enforcement and military. Their attitudes all seemed to be the same…sometimes you're only going to get one shot off…it had better be good, and lethal. Interesting.
There's not a single guy carrying .38 spl. on that list. Since it's on topic for the real thread here, I'm curious about this:
I'm not sure where cargaritaville is, but I bet that here in NY, you'd see some .38 spl., especially if the people you asked were, shall we say, of a certain age. I am not a subscriber to the "only one shot, it better count" school of thought. It's why I'm not a .44 Magnum fan. I believe accurate shots with fast follow-ups win gunfights.
The new (-ish) Speer 135 grain +P Gold Dot Short Barrel has been doing well for the large agency here that commissioned it. And that's largely in off-duty (most closely mirroring private citizen) shootings.
Capacity is clearly an issue with typical revolvers. I've discussed it often here. Still, the difference between a 5 shot .38 spl. and a 6 shot .45 in terms of "confidence-of-carry" is close to negligible for me; faster reloads for the .45, the snub is easier to carry and less prone to operator-induced failure. I think I'd opt for the .38 over the truly "sub-compact" .45s.
-That's not to mean the Glock 30 or similar, you understand!
But I got a chance to shoot a buddy's XD-S. It was fine, but for it's size and shape, for six rounds, I think I'd choose my 642.
Nobody here likes .38 spl.? :(
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You mentioned Bernie Goetz and his S&W Airweight .38 spl. He shot four of them on the subway with five shots and said that he would have fired more if he had more rounds. He bought the Airweight in Florida because he had enough of muggings, holdups, etc., and I would guess that he had very few, if any, range trips with his revolver. .38 spl. will definitely work, especially in close quarters.
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Yeah. He's a little wacky. I've seen him once or twice, but never spoken to him.
It was the wackiness that got him in trouble. The shoot would've been good, in those days even with the "illegal" gun.
The .38 worked fine, and as I've said before, "modern" ammunition is superior. His marksmanship was adequate.
It was what he did after the shooting that kind of bit him in the ass.
-A new thread, perhaps? ;)
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Your ball.
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I'll go back to what I said earlier...A S&W 940 5 shot 9mm on moon clips is almost as fast on reloads as a semi auto and has all the penetrating power needed to do the job. With good, properly expanding ammo I'm not convinced it's not one of the better carry options. Yes...that gun is tough to find...but is well worth the effort and $$ in return for peace of mind.
As Douglas referred to, "operator induced error" is not a factor with revolvers. And, if matching the 940 or 640, with their long, DA trigger, at 50 ft. against any sub-compact semi-auto with a similar barrel length and sight radius, I'll bet on the wheelie all day, every day.
In a crisis situation, a person (myself) who has never been in a gunfight, should probably have the least complicated, idiot proof firearm on the planet if he or she is to survive.
If there's 3 or 4 or 5 guys with guns...call Jack Bauer...he'll tell you you're running out of time. ;D
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Nobody here likes .38 spl.? :(
On March 8, 1995, while having lunch in a restaurant across from a county courthouse in East Tennessee, I first laid eyes on the lady who is now my wife. She was about to try a case in the courthouse and I was there to file an oil and gas lease. I was just passing through Tennessee working on a joint venture with Chevron while waiting for a certain government to change back in Africa where I had left hurriedly "for reasons of health" following a military coup, abandoning a lot of unfinished business on the ground. In any event, upon seeing the lady in question I immediately stalled, crashed, and burned, and then began a year-long hot pursuit that resulted in my becoming a Tennessean in 1996 after she had finally agreed to marry me.
With my new domicile established, I promptly applied for a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit. The course required qualification with some suitable handgun. On the day of the qualification, I looked through the possibilities in the gun safe and pulled out a Smith & Wesson Model 36 3" .38 Special. Even though I tend to favor a semi-automatic handgun, I seem to recall reminding myself at the time of the old "KISS" maxim.
I qualified.
One of my step-daughters now has that S&W. However, I still have a supply of .38 Special cartridges because they can be loaded in my IMI Timber Wolf pump carbine chambered for .357 Magnum.
I've always had a healthy respect for the venerable .38 Special. If I were to carry a wheel gun, it would be chambered for that cartridge.
Edited syntax.
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About 30 years ago, I visited a fellow in a state prison. Something I have done on a regular basis over the years. Anyways, this man had been shot 5 times(all at once) in the chest and stomach area, with a 38 special. Lucky for him that didn't happen with today's hollow point technology or it might have been a different outcome for him. Moral of the story,,,,two things. 1) Shot placement, center mass is critical with any gun weather a 38 or 45. 2) Type of ammo used,,,,in his case it was FMJs. R
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+1 on the modern hollow points. In my opinion, FMJ is not suitable for civilian self-defense use and should be limited to range work.