The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: FireBreather01 on March 13, 2005, 03:10:27 AM
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Check this out - http://www.jsonline.com/news/wauk/mar05/309035.asp
This wacked-out bad guy just opened up on his fellow church goers that were meeting at an area hotel - mowing them down, (11 shot, 7 dead) then killed himself. I will never understand the mentality of taking down others and then committing suicide - why not just cut to the chase and do suicide first??? Leave the innocents alone!
Why am I bringing this up here? I don't mean to make political hay out of others' pain but when I think of the Mark Wilson story in Texas where Wilson, a CCW holder, intervened in another mass-murder situation somewhat similar to this and likely prevented many others from being killed. Here in WI we have a governor who actually said that he was 'afraid', and citizens should be as well, that CCW holders carrying guns into a church and little league games would be randomly pulling out our guns and killing people. He stated that as one of his reasons for vetoing our CCW legislation.
How ironic that if CCW had passed and a member of that church was carrying, perhaps, just perhaps, this tragedy could have been prevented or lessened. Or maybe another CCW holder was in the immediate vicinity and could have responded to the same effect. I acknowledge that even with CCW legal in WI that maybe the outcome would have been no different. But I can virtually guarantee that without CCW laws murderous wackos of this kind are far more likely to succeed with their evil actions here rather than in other, gun-friendly, states.
I wonder when our governor will retract his statements that smear law-abiding citizens like myself and acknowledge that his CCW vetos enable evil to succeed. BTW - this is the second shooting like this at a Milwaukee area hotel in the last year.
Please pray for the families of the victims.
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That's why I really HATE gun-free zones because it's just an invitation for something like this to happen.
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Not so long ago local governments and law enforcment, local sheriffs depts., knew they could not respond to all areas fast enough so they deputized law abiding citizens that were empowerd to carry a gun and act if needed. When will law enforcment wakeup to the fact that responsable citizens that are armed are not only a deterant to crime but are also a valuable tool to stop an incident like this?
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I hope I am not mistaken, but I was told the shooter in the Wis. church shooting paused to re-load. That would have been the time to act for a gutsy CWW holder.. And a Bullet/shot counter...
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This blew me away - as ever I too cannot even begin to penetrate the mind-set of someone who does this.
There are always so, so many ''if only's'' but for sure - someone with CCW could perhaps have ended it way quicker. I am perpetually sickened by ''gun-free zones'' because yes - they are an invitation to bad guys ... might as well have notices some places ...
"This is a gun-free zone but - if you are a bad guy - come on in - we will not attack you - so bring a gun why doncha''.
There will always be fruit-cakes around, who can get or have guns. No reason to try and limit those of us living within the law - who just might have the ability to minimize or even neutralize such scum. 99 times out of 100 - the cops sure won't be there - they can't be everywhere.
If all legal firearms were gone tomorrow - there would still be incidents like this.
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>>I've always wondered how CCW folks on this forum interpret / carry out no carry areas and how/when you "carry when you aren't carrying". In reality it's probably not something to put in print, but I've always wondered. I have my own "understandings" of these things...TW<<
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Much TW - is down to ''understanding'' - eh!? ;)
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The only things that ever stop me from carrying in a "No carry" zone is a Metal detector, or being in one of those dreaded "NO tolerance" areas, like in the Airports. or Court House, Federal Buildings. Lookout WalMart, Target, Church, I'm packin'..........
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RJ:
And the choir said, "Amen!"
RS
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Greeting's to All!
A terrible tragedy indeed, .. I agree that the situation could have had a different outcome if there had been a person with a ccw among the gathering. How many times I've wondered what would I do in a situation like this one, I'd definately would try to do something, otherwise I have no business with a ccw, of course there would be many things to consider before the shooting started ( on my part).
Do all the states pretty much follow the same guide-lines and rules when a ccw is issued to a person? In my state you are not allowed to have your weapon on you in just about all the places you would want to have it with you, restsurants that serve liquor, theaters that hold more that 2500 people, church, etc; I have to agree with R.J. I pretty much carry along with his idea on where and when.
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The prohibitions on carrying a gun in restaurants that serve alcohol drive me crazy. Exactly how am I supposed to know which restaurants serve alcohol before I walk into the restaurant (thereby breaking the law already) and looking at the menu? We don't have such a law here in PA and we don't have any problems with concealed handgun license holders getting drunk.
Churches are on the criminal-free list in many states, and unfortunately many Christian denominations actively support gun control, for example, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalean, Lutheran, and Catholic. Many Jewish groups also support gun control. The leaders of such groups need to read the Bible they pretend to know how to teach, and see what it actually has to say on the issue. Taken in its entirety without selectively picking and choosing verses, it clearly recognizes and encourages self-defense. My gun came with me to church this morning.
Fortunately for our education, and unfortunately for our being armed, many churches also have schools therein, so if carrying into a church is legal, carrying into those churches is not.
Every Christian who carries a gun needs to read the book "Shooting Back: The Right and Duty of Self Defence" by Charl Van Wyk. The author was attending a church in South Africa when five terrorists armed with AK-47 (full-auto, not the semiauto clones) and grenades started killing people. Although he was armed with only a .38 revolver and the 5 rounds it contained, he engaged the terrorists, hitting one and hastening their departure. The scriptural case for self-defense is made quite well by that book.
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>>In my state (Virginia) the only time it is legal to pull and use a handgun is in self defense of self or a family member. My wife and I have taken in and cared for various friends and teenagers over the years. I once posed the following real life situation to a chief of police teaching a CCW class... I asked if I had the right to use a hand gun in a situation where we had a 15 year old girl from England living with us for a year and we came home to find her being attacked/raped by an intruder...? After all, her parents had entrusted her life and safety with us and in essence she had become family. The chief said that by the letter of the law we could not use a gun on that intruder, because she was not really family. But...he noted this was one of those gray areas where you had to let your conscience be your guide. You would think any sensible jury would fine you innocent in the long run...but you would likely be in jail waiting that verdict and may or may not get your gun back...may or may not be labeled a felon. Go figure. Anyone care to add their thoughts / conclusions on this scenario...?...TW<<
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In my thinking TW - your scenario - sudden discovery of an armed rapist - whether or not the victim was family per se, or not - could IMO immediately put you personally in the potential line of fire. Who is to say (if perp taken out!!) that he was not aiming gun at you.? SELF defence?!
Let's face it - decision-making time might be milli seconds - and conscience and instinct have to fire up real quick. We, each and every one - would in extremis have to do what we felt best. many in LE when asked such questions, often hedge and beat around it - usually saying .. ''you do what you gotta do''!!
I sincerely hope to never have to put this to the test (as Mr Wilson did and lost - in TX Courthouse drama).
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TW:
I agree with Chris. And it brings to mind the old maxim --
"I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six."
RS
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Although the story you mention is probably preventable, I think the Fulton County Sherrif's Department in Atlanta will forever own the dubious honor or "Preventable Tradegy". There are so many errors in judgement and common sense it is impossible to know where to begin. It is another sad story that didn't need to occur.
I suspect that a lot of procedures will be changed in the Sherrif's department in the forthcoming days. But now, imagine you receive a summons for jury duty in Fulton County Court. Given that one can not carry in a court, coupled with the fact that the Sherrif's Department has proven that they cannot ensure the safety of anyone there (themselves included), I suspect there will be a lot of "no thank you" replies coming back from prospective jurors.
Hopefully the Fulton County Sherrif's Department, along with the rest of the nation will learn something from this. Again, it just goes to show that you are ultimately responsible for your own safety. Our founding fathers knew this, and another lunatic just proved them correct (again, unfortunately).
God bless the Rohrbaugh brothers for giving me something in my pocket that gives me and my family a fighting chance.
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I truly wish that it was possible to say "thanks but no thanks" to a jury summons in Fulton County (or any other for that matter). If you do that, some folks with guns escort you to stand in front of the judge that you "dissed" and explain your actions.
I have had three in the past five years. The last one I received on the Friday before last Fridays murder rampage.
With my law enforcement background, I thought that I would not be called much less serve - WRONG!
To add to the problems in the Fulton County Court, the only armed personel allowed in the court are the Fulton County Sheriffs Deputies and the Fulton County Prosecuters Investigators.
The pucker factor is very high while trying to get from the parking building (where one of the four jihackings took place) across the street (where Sgt. Teasley was gunned down) to the court house.
I'm not looking forward to being in that situation again on March 28th when I must next appear for jury duty.
I am thankful to those before me that sacrificed all that they did so that I can fuss about appearing and to have the opportunity to serve - I would prefer to be availed the opportunity of self protection while there.
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I really get upset when I hear stories like these, about the innocent people getting killed by some loser, when a CCW authorized person might have prevent it, or at least saved a few of the victims. I'm a LEO, but I will say this, and take it for what it's worth.
If you carry a gun legally in your state under a CCW, carry it at all times. Short of a medal detector or hand search, no one knows you're carrying. Do you think a jury would have convicted someone who had a CCW in that church, if they'd stopped that nut? I doubt it ::)
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Living in WI as I do it is a tough call to make as to being armed. Without CCW I would be breaking the law anytime I carry but with news like this it just pushes me to make the obvious choice. The NRA and other groups are just waiting for a 'test case' due to a recent WI Supreme Court decision in which the justices all but begged for CCW legislation. That, and the fact that our state constitution guarantees RKBA would make for an interesting outcome. If the test case is me, so be it!!!
I now rely on the 'Doctrine of Competing Harms' - whereby one is allowed to break the law in the rare instance that following it would result in great bodily harm or death to innocents if the law is kept.
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In Texas before CCW became legal many carried anyway. Including judges, attorneys,doctors, salesmen and various business people. It was not a big deal back then. Something to be said about carrying ALL the time. Tom
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May judges still carry (in the courtroom, that is). "Professional courtesy". Too bad for the rest of us. :-/
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I make a thing of this I know - but, if you can CCW - then DO it - all the time that you can. I am probably 100 times safer than many - and work from home etc - very low risk. But I still carry 16/7. I am not possessing of any pre-cognitive powers.
Furthermore, another point - when it is there all time - there is no awful surprise, as you reach for it - only to find - ''oops, left it off today''!! I regard mine as I do a wrist watch. I can always check time - I can always access my piece.
Further (boring) reiteration ... to consider.
"Do not assume."
"Expect the unexpected."
"You cannot make appointments for emergencies."
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Learned today that the initial attack on the 51 year old lone female deputy who was transporting the guy in Atlanta was caught on camera - and two deputies were supposed to be watching that camera but apparently weren't. Quite a lesson here about entrusting your safety to others, and I'd hate to be the two who were supposed to be watching the camera.
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Two more things came out today:
1. The custodial deputy had followed proceedure and locked her weapon in a locker before she unshackled Nichols. That was when he attacked her, beat her, took the key to the locker and got the gun. All on tape and supposedly monitored.
2. Nichols then went to the target judge's courtroom, judge hits the hidden panic button. Nichols then does the judge in the back of the head and then the court reporter. One timeline has the first response to the panic button to be ten minutes, where upon the responder is disarmed by Nichols. Nichols then exits the premises with two guns.
About two dozen Atlanta and other jurisdiction officers were in the grand jury room where they were gathered, unarmed with their weapons locked up while they waited being called to their various cases. When the alarm went off, they were abandoned, unarmed, while their "guards" responded.
Have no fear, because the high sheriff announced that he is going to form a committee to study security measures at the courthouse.
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It gets much worse. I'm not clear if it was the same panic alarm, but some type of silent alarm was pressed by one of the deputies. The person monitoring the silent alarm immediately contacted the deputy to verify he didn't sound the alarm by accident. It is not clear if Nichols himself responded to the call by indicating is was an error, or instructed the officer to do so. Either way, the alarm was cancelled. They're investigating this also.
It was a 51 year old 5' 0" female who was guarding a 6' 33 year old ex-college football player in excellent shape. While no one was monitoring the camera, she was getting attacked for 3 full minutes. That's a long time to be getting assaulted.
When the investigation is finished, there will be many unbelievable lapses in common sense and judgement. Like why would a female officer be present while a male suspect was undressing? Why didn't she just exercise good judgement and ask for someone to back her up? Again, these are people that are responsible for your protection in the court.
I think Chris has it nailed.
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This will all be on my mind when I answer a jury duty summons in the very same Fulton County Court House on March 28. ::)
Sure wish it was in the jurisdiction of my old department. I had full confidence in our court security proceedures.