Preventable Tragedy?

[FireBreather01]

Check this out - http://www.jsonline.com/news/wauk/mar05/309035.asp

This wacked-out bad guy just opened up on his fellow church goers that were meeting at an area hotel - mowing them down, (11 shot, 7 dead) then killed himself. I will never understand the mentality of taking down others and then committing suicide - why not just cut to the chase and do suicide first??? Leave the innocents alone!

Why am I bringing this up here? I don't mean to make political hay out of others' pain but when I think of the Mark Wilson story in Texas where Wilson, a CCW holder, intervened in another mass-murder situation somewhat similar to this and likely prevented many others from being killed. Here in WI we have a governor who actually said that he was 'afraid', and citizens should be as well, that CCW holders carrying guns into a church and little league games would be randomly pulling out our guns and killing people. He stated that as one of his reasons for vetoing our CCW legislation.

How ironic that if CCW had passed and a member of that church was carrying, perhaps, just perhaps, this tragedy could have been prevented or lessened. Or maybe another CCW holder was in the immediate vicinity and could have responded to the same effect. I acknowledge that even with CCW legal in WI that maybe the outcome would have been no different. But I can virtually guarantee that without CCW laws murderous wackos of this kind are far more likely to succeed with their evil actions here rather than in other, gun-friendly, states.

I wonder when our governor will retract his statements that smear law-abiding citizens like myself and acknowledge that his CCW vetos enable evil to succeed. BTW - this is the second shooting like this at a Milwaukee area hotel in the last year.

Please pray for the families of the victims.

[Fud]

That's why I really HATE gun-free zones because it's just an invitation for something like this to happen.

[Newt]

Not so long ago local governments and law enforcment, local sheriffs depts., knew they could not respond to all areas fast enough so they deputized law abiding citizens that were empowerd to carry a gun and act if needed. When will law enforcment wakeup to the fact that responsable citizens that are armed are not only a deterant to crime but are also a valuable tool to stop an incident like this?

[RJ HEDLEY]

I hope I am not mistaken, but I was told the shooter in the Wis. church shooting paused to re-load.  That would have been the time to act for a gutsy CWW holder..  And a Bullet/shot counter...  

[R9SCarry]

This blew me away - as ever I too cannot even begin to penetrate the mind-set of someone who does this.

There are always so, so many ''if only's'' but for sure - someone with CCW could perhaps have ended it way quicker.  I am perpetually sickened by ''gun-free zones'' because yes - they are an invitation to bad guys ... might as well have notices some places ...

"This is a gun-free zone but - if you are a bad guy - come on in - we will not attack you - so bring a gun why doncha''.

There will always be fruit-cakes around, who can get or have guns.  No reason to try and limit those of us living within the law - who just might have the ability to minimize or even neutralize such scum.  99 times out of 100 - the cops sure won't be there - they can't be everywhere.

If all legal firearms were gone tomorrow - there would still be incidents like this.

[TW]

>>I've always wondered how CCW folks on this forum interpret / carry out no carry areas and how/when you "carry when you aren't carrying".  In reality it's probably not something to put in print, but I've always wondered.  I have my own "understandings" of these things...TW<<

[R9SCarry]

Much TW - is down to ''understanding'' - eh!?

[RJ HEDLEY]

The only things that ever stop me from carrying in a "No carry" zone is a Metal detector, or being in one of  those dreaded "NO tolerance" areas,  like in  the Airports. or Court House, Federal Buildings.   Lookout WalMart, Target, Church, I'm packin'..........

[Richard S]

RJ:

And the choir said, "Amen!"

RS

[mismatch]

Greeting's to All!

   A terrible tragedy indeed, .. I agree that the situation could have had a different outcome if there had been a person with a ccw among the gathering.  How many times I've wondered what would I do in a situation like this one, I'd definately would try to do something, otherwise I have no business with a ccw, of course there would be many things to consider before the shooting started ( on my part).  
  Do all the states pretty much follow the same guide-lines and rules when a ccw is issued to a person? In my state you are not allowed to have your weapon on you in just about all the places you would want to have it with you, restsurants that serve liquor, theaters that hold more that 2500 people, church, etc;  I have to agree with R.J. I pretty much carry along with his idea on where and when.

[BillinPittsburgh]

The prohibitions on carrying a gun in restaurants that serve alcohol drive me crazy.  Exactly how am I supposed to know which restaurants serve alcohol before I walk into the restaurant (thereby breaking the law already) and looking at the menu?  We don't have such a law here in PA and we don't have any problems with concealed handgun license holders getting drunk.

Churches are on the criminal-free list in many states, and unfortunately many Christian denominations actively support gun control, for example, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalean, Lutheran, and Catholic.  Many Jewish groups also support gun control.  The leaders of such groups need to read the Bible they pretend to know how to teach, and see what it actually has to say on the issue.  Taken in its entirety without selectively picking and choosing verses, it clearly recognizes and encourages self-defense.    My gun came with me to church this morning.

Fortunately for our education, and unfortunately for our being armed, many churches also have schools therein, so if carrying into a church is legal, carrying into those churches is not.

Every Christian who carries a gun needs to read the book "Shooting Back:  The Right and Duty of Self Defence" by Charl Van Wyk.  The author was attending a church in South Africa when five terrorists armed with AK-47 (full-auto, not the semiauto clones) and grenades started killing people.  Although he was armed with only a .38 revolver and the 5 rounds it contained, he engaged the terrorists, hitting one and hastening their departure.  The scriptural case for self-defense is made quite well by that book.

[TW]

>>In my state (Virginia) the only time it is legal to pull and use a handgun is in self defense of self or a family member.  My wife and I have taken in and cared for various friends and teenagers over the years.  I once posed the following real life situation to a chief of police teaching a CCW class...  I asked if I had the right to use a hand gun in a situation where we had a 15 year old girl from England living with us for a year and we came home to find her being attacked/raped by an intruder...?  After all, her parents had entrusted her life and safety with us and in essence she had become family.  The chief said that by the letter of the law we could not use a gun on that intruder, because she was not really family.  But...he noted this was one of those gray areas where you had to let your conscience be your guide.  You would think any sensible jury would fine you innocent in the long run...but you would likely be in jail waiting that verdict and may or may not get your gun back...may or may not be labeled a felon.  Go figure.  Anyone care to add their thoughts / conclusions on this scenario...?...TW<<

[R9SCarry]

In my thinking TW - your scenario - sudden discovery of an armed rapist - whether or not the victim was family per se, or not - could IMO immediately put you personally in the potential line of fire.  Who is to say (if perp taken out!!) that he was not aiming gun at you.?  SELF defence?!

Let's face it - decision-making time might be milli seconds - and conscience and instinct have to fire up real quick.  We, each and every one - would in extremis have to do what we felt best.  many in LE when asked such questions, often hedge and beat around it - usually saying .. ''you do what you gotta do''!!

I sincerely hope to never have to put this to the test (as Mr Wilson did and lost - in TX Courthouse drama).

[Richard S]

TW:

I agree with Chris.  And it brings to mind the old maxim --
"I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six."

RS

[Wayne]

Although the story you mention is probably preventable, I think the Fulton County Sherrif's Department in Atlanta will forever own the dubious honor or "Preventable Tradegy".  There are so many errors in judgement and common sense it is impossible to know where to begin.  It is another sad story that didn't need to occur.

I suspect that a lot of procedures will be changed in the Sherrif's department in the forthcoming days.  But now, imagine you receive a summons for jury duty in Fulton County Court.  Given that one can not carry in a court, coupled with the fact that the Sherrif's Department has proven that they cannot ensure the safety of anyone there (themselves included), I suspect there will be a lot of "no thank you" replies coming back from prospective jurors.

Hopefully the Fulton County Sherrif's Department, along with the rest of the nation will learn something from this.  Again, it just goes to show that you are ultimately responsible for your own safety.  Our founding fathers knew this, and another lunatic just proved them correct (again, unfortunately).

God bless the Rohrbaugh brothers for giving me something in my pocket that gives me and my family a fighting chance.