The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Gunsmithing or Modifications for your Rohrbaugh => Topic started by: DDGator on May 29, 2004, 12:58:45 AM
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I wonder if something like the NAA guttersnipe sights could be done to the R-9 by the right gunsmith?
(http://www.naaminis.com/pix/gutsightrear.jpg)
NAA has a lot of cool aftermarket sight options for the Guardian pistols.
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I would imagine a good smith could make some interesting changes but - ya know .... I still come back to the same thing here ..... use in extremis is probably gonna be very ''close up and personal'' .... so even the std sights on the ''S'' version .. well may not be used that much.
I am getting to the stage now with R9 where I plan to practice point shooting ... a means to control the pup with no sight useage (to speak of) ... and still get useful hits at 7 yards.
I still tho do want to dry and apply some mini dots of ''BrightSights'' paint ....... and see how it seems. I think the dot on foresight will be most useful .... and will probably not wear off easily .. rear - not so sure.
If i get good results with an application I'll post pics.
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Gutter Snipe style sights are ideal on a firearm like the Rohrbaugh. They serve more as an aiming aid than a traditional sight. Perfect with a BUG intended to be used at close range.
What I did with my NAA Guardians is to purchase a second slide and have that slide machined for the Gutter Snipe sights. My original slide I had rounded over, removing the metal zit factory sights, a la Seecamp.
This is an idea that Rohrbaugh should consider. Machine some slides and have the sights installed. They would acquire another profit center, and the customer would acquire an additional choice.
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I really like guttersnipe N/S and agree they would be perfect on the R9, I also would not mind a tritum insert in the front site if it could be done.
I am pleased with the site's on the R9S though, they are funtional and are the best milled on sites I have seen.
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under stress, point shooting is either slower than sighted fire, or misses the chest a lot, beyond about 10 ft, with full size and wt,SA autopistols. With a DAO pocket pc, that's probably true at 6 ft, too. There's no reason to be without the sights, unless it's FASTER than using the sights. It's rather easy to prove that pointing is not faster than sighting, at 4 yds and further. An average of 5 tries, on the electronic shooting timer, with, say, a year's pay bet on the outcome (for some stress you see) and making the shooter pivot in order to fire (to get rid of bogus, pre-shooting "alignment" of the body on the target. Such will never be the reality of the situation. I fyou had time to get all "lined up" on the attacker, why haven't you already shot him, eh? Without a timer, and an average time, you are only guessing about what's what. Those with timers have known that I'm correct about this, for 20 years now. :-)
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During WWII the SOE/OSS taught point shooting exclusively for an armed encounter at a range 15 feet or less in a combat enviornment. The SOE/OSS technique was more "indexed" than western movie style point shooting, but the technique was nevertheless effective in the field.
While aimed fire is more accurate, I think it is prudent for someone to learn point shooting, weak hand shooting, as well as shooting in low or no light situations.
In the early 1980's I had an opportunity to shoot in a totally dark range. What occurred is that the sound of footsteps over gravel were recorded on a loop cassette tape (the kind used in phone answering machines) and a speaker was placed on the floor under the target. The range was 30 feet. You fired once using to sound to "aim." You then observed the target location by means of the flash created by the first shot and then fired another shot.
In real life, I would never shoot in total darkness. But I was surprised that the shots hit the target in center mass.
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like I said, IF you can get all "lined up", and IF nothing is riding on the outcome, and IF it was before there were luminous sights. None of that is true anymore, and it wasn't done against TIME, nor was it done with a pocket gun. We DO have luminous sights these days, so only SPEED can be a reason to not use the sights. I agree about learning point shooting, but I do so because 85+% of all attacks on civilians occur at 10 ft or less, the ranges at which point shooting IS faster than aimed fire(average of 5 tries, hits on the 10" circle of the chest) That is, IF the pointing is done with both hands on the gun, at nearly eye level.
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Huh....
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DRC Custom Guns, David Clay I believe is the innovator of the Guttersnipe Sights. Although I may be wrong. Don't seem to be able to access his site right now, will try later..
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Seventrees, Ltd, of NYC, had Gutternipe sights on their "Asp" chop of the Smith M39, 35 years ago, man.
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Good bye. [Just to clean up the last post.]
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The original Guttersnipe was tacked onto the top of the ASP pistol. That might work on a Rohrbaugh. The trough type sight done by Clay will NOT work on a Rohrbaugh as the top of the slide is only .060" thick to reduce the overall height of the pistol.
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To read about the Guttersnipe system used on the "ASP" , link is below, when there, scroll about 3/4 down to "ASP"..
http://www.hmss.com/qbranch/qb0101.htm
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Hi RJ
Thanks for the link.
I have an ASP and find the sight system to work very well for me, even with my aging eyesight. At one time, when Kevin Parsons was still in production with the gun, I had one made with conventional sights as I had to qualify with it at 25 yards back in the '80s. I don't think it was a benefit and sold it later.
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I have the "Gutter Snipe" sight system on my G380 and have learned to use it effectively. There is also something comforting to wake up in the middle of the night and see those three tritium dots glowing on the nightstand. I would have the system installed on my R9s in a heartbeat.
RS
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Only Rohrbaugh can make that happen. The slide is thick enough at one point, before the sights are milled out.
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Wow, dr16
An ASP! :o Talk about a cult pistol! "Unseen in the best places," I think that is how it's described. Congratulations on being the original owner of a very special way-ahead-of-its-time piece of 20th century handgun history.
You must be very used to your Asp. How do you think it stacks up to the new 9mm compacts like Glocks, Sigs, H&Ks, Kahrs, etc?
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Hi 9 mil,
The ASP was my primary backup both in and out of uniform for many years. I bought a G19 just before leaving the old department and never considered it in the same light as the ASP. A bit bigger and heavier - same loads chronographed similiarly - although I had had that ASP Mag-Na-Ported.
Both my G27 and G30 are considered in a more "utilitarian" light - specific tool for a specific purpose ....
The PM 40 has yet to grow on me, but may well yet, once I have developed faith in it. It is definitely on my short list. It just came back from a visit with its maker.
I have had a R9S on order for a while and I feel that it and the ASP will make a great combination. Especially if a "GutterSnipe" like sight could be adapted to it.
Dave
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dr16:
I envy you. I would love to own an ASP. I don't know how I would justify the expenditure to my wife, who always requires an equal outlay of "discretionary income" for my "non-essential" purchases, but I would purely love to own one.
RS
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Hi RS,
Thanks for the kind comments.
Back when I got mine, if you already had a 39-2 and didn't mind a wait, it was less than half of the cost of an R9S.
Dave
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Wow dr16, an ASP is a great addition to any collection! You must really enjoy it!
Does it shoot as nicely as everyone says?
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The ASP has the gutter snipe site mounted on top of the slide. I wonder if such a devce could be made and then somehow connected to the top of the R9 slide? Maybe small holes could be drilled through the top of the slide and the site attached with screws.
It would make the pistol taller, but just a small bit.
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Hi Jim,
The ASP is a good shooter. However the trigger on the R9 is lighter and smoother than the ASP when it was in DAO mode. As much as I like the GS sights on the ASP, I don't feel they would add much to the R9 in its design duty cycle.
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ASP?
What is this?
Where can I see a pic of one? (OK just looked it up WOW NICE!)
[glb]What do they go for when you can find them?
Please tell me more![/glb]
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Good luck! Its a highly sought after, very limited piece. I have no idea what they go for... but I am sure it is quite substantial.
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Pics and info on the ASP:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg147-e.htm
http://members.aol.com/ASPGunner/
(http://www.bulmangunleather.com/green%20asp%20563X350.jpg)
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>>WOW...! That is a cool pistol...!! When someone finds the motherload stash...I'll take one too...!...TW<<
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OK, guys, thanks for more salt in the wound.
After reading the thread, I had to dig out my old inquiry about the ASP conversions. According to the December 3, 1981 letter I have from ASP the price for conversions at that time was $450 for a customer supplied M39 and $760 for a corporation supplied weapon. I already had the M39, and have kicked myself numerous times over the years for not going ahead with the conversion. But, that was 1981, and $450 was a LOT more then than it is now. I have seen the little beauty in person, and trust me, no picture can do it justice.
Every now and then I do a search for one and right now it looks like one of the auctions have one or two but I'm not sure that they are the original m39 conversions. They are listed between $4,000 and $5,000, depending on which one you like.
But, anyway, thanks for bringing up the topic again and making me pull out the ASP envelope. It was great looking over the magazine reviews and the ASP gun and accessories brochure.
Randy
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Wow, I’ve never seen see-through grip handles before, very cool idea! I wonder if there are any other custom pistol smiths that can do that nowadays.
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I'm sure you would be able to find one with out too much trouble. It's just a matter of milling out the frame and inserting Plexiglas or Lexan in a window opening the grips..
The "wait time" may be the "hard" part... ;)
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The ASP was designed as a deep cover gun. With the R9 you don't need the ASP. You may not need one but you still might want one. Tom
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A lot of threads discuss the R9's close tolerances of many aspects including bore gap, asymmetrical recoil springs, chamber pressure, and slide mass. SLIDE MASS! Why didn't you say so? Better not change the slide mass.
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I was involved in a shooting 8 years ago, I can tell you that I distinctly remember pulling up and seeing the sights. It did look however like slow motion but was not.