The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Gunsmithing or Modifications for your Rohrbaugh => Topic started by: Woo_Woo on December 07, 2005, 11:10:41 PM
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Hey everyone, I know it has been a while since I have posted, but I finally made it to the range, recently. I had an interesting experience.
I loaded my R9s, being my first time firing it, I pulled the trigger back very slowly. Finally, the hammer drops, and nothing. I pulled again, and again, nothing. I ejected the round and looked at it, and there was a very faint mark on the primer. I tried it again with another bullet. Same results.
I put it away, but then decided that I didn't come to the range for nothing. I wondered if the slow trigger pull took any blame, so I reloaded it and pulled the trigger quickly. It fired with no problem. I reloaded and did it again, and once again, no problem.
Has anyone else experienced a failure to fire, and if so, has it been recurring or an isolated experience? Please let me know. It was near freezing outside. No idea if that had an effect. The ammo was regular old Remington JHP from Wal-Mart. I was so excited to shoot it that I didn't take the time to track down the recommended ammo.
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Do yourself a favor and buy the Speer GDHP. How many
times does it take to put the message across? No offense,
just pay minimal attention.
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What is it with pulling the trigger back very slowly?
That makes no sense; maybe you should take a basic
course in something unless you're putting us on.
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Somewhere I read that it was recommended by one of the Rohrbaugh boys that pulling the trigger slowly could result in a failure to fire.
I've only used Winchester Silvertips and Speer 115 GDHP in both of my R9s. If you ever have to use the gun you will not be pulling the trigger slowly. Hard to say why a slow pull would be a problem. Others have had problems with the Remmington primers.
Dave
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Tracker, I don't know about you, but the first time I fire a new gun, I squeeze the trigger to find the breaking point (the point at which the hammer drops and the gun fires). I was taking a long shot as well and wanted to test the accuracy at a distance. Same thing I've been doing with guns for the past 17 years. In any case, even after the first trigger pull, I pulled a couple more times with the same bullet in the chamber and nothing happened.
As for the ammo, like I said, the primer only had a mark on it, and unless the primers are made of iron, it should have had a dent. Using Speer Gold Dots would not have made any difference at all, IMO, unless they use thin aluminum primers. I would have used Speer, but in my excitement to shoot the thing, I did not spend the time finding a gun store who had it in stock, because, for whatever reason, the several I went to were sold out.
The reason for posting this was to get some feedback to see if anyone else had a similar problem or knew what was going on. People on this forum tend to be helpful, but you are clearly not one of them.
I realize that in a situation where I need the R9s, I won't be taking my time on accuracy and I will pull the trigger back quickly, but in any case, the fact that it didn't dent the primer after several pulls (one slow, the rest fast) is what concerns me. If it fails to fire once, how can I be sure it will fire when I need it. The simple fact is, a gun (especially a self defense pistol) should fire every time you pull the trigger, regardless of ammo.
Thank you MountainMan for your constructive feedback.
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Woo_Woo,
I think the pistol should fire normally, even if the trigger is pulled slowly.
I always thought you should pull the trigger slowly when doing target practice. Otherwise, I think the muzzle might jump around a little bit.
Of course, this pistol is meant for up close defensive usage, where the trigger might be expected to be pulled quickly.
However, I still think slow pull should work.
Bill
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I'm sure that the first time I pulled the trigger on mine, I did so very slowly and carefully to see where it let off. However, mine went bang as it was supposed to.
Unless my grasp of how a gun is built is all wrong, I just don't see how the speed of the trigger pull should have any effect on the final strike. Can I ask you to try to reproduce that? I will certainly try it when I go shooting next, which will hopefully be Saturday.
My bet is that it is an ammo problem, not a gun problem, but it certainly would raise my eyebrows if it happened to me.
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Woo_Woo;
Sorry, I apologize for my caustic comments. You are right;
we should only try to help each other.
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I agree that the speed of the trigger manipulation should have NO bearing on the force with which the hammer falls...
Not sure what to make of this... if you rule out ammo, its a gun issue. Try some high quality defensive ammo before you rule out ammo though.
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>>Hi Woo...
The R9 is a very purpose built gun and does best with reccomended ammo. For pratice I use Blazer .115gr with either aluminum or brass cases and Win White Box .115. For carry I use Speer GDHP in .115 or Win Silvertip HP in .115. And very important...stick to the factory reccomended clean and lube every 50 - 80 shots for best results.
Good luck with your new critter & enjoy...!...TW<<
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I don't know how this might work considering that once the hammer reaches it's set point - it should have as much stored energy whether it is pulled fast or slow. PERHAPS, with the freezing weather the grease on your hammer was less viscous and by pulling slowly it didn't have enough inertia to overcome the friction of the cold grease.
(Hell - I don't know - it's a theory :-/)
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IMO..
Should not make a bit of difference if we pull fast, slow,or anywhere between.. ::)
I have done both, and never had a problem as yet..
In an act of "urgency" one may use any matter of speed of trigger pull!! ;)
I believe if you have tried different ammo-gotta be the gun..
Hope you find out soon..
Brenden
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Brenden,
Be that as it may, I cannot in my wildest dreams using
a slow trigger pull in an urgent, self-defense situation.
Barring hesitation on a possible unidentified target, why
pull the trigger slowly? In practice, it should be done at the
same rate for consistency. Yes, Woo_Woo, I do check
for trigger break but not on a live round; usually on a snap
cap or if you desire, a dry fire. Shooting is a lot like flying:
do your experimenting in a simulated situation. I tried a lot
of things in a flight simulator that I would not even consider
in an airplane.
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Tracker,
Understood..
I try ALL ways to make sure everything that "may" occur-is OK..
When I practice-I shoot for fun, and also for "real"..Never hope to do this though..
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Indeed, hammer fall is from same point in theory and so impact energy should be same fast or slow.
But - and not tested this and not sure if I could - but theory suggests that extreme speed with trigger pull could impart enough velocity to hammer against main spring to let it compress said spring a minute amount more than slow release.
This could then impart just a shade more energy at release.
Overall tho ammo choice is what I place most importance on. regular misfires tho might suggest a gun problem tho it is not one I would expect at all.
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Brenden,
Thanks, I agree that we hope to never have to use this little
creation in anger or defense. The good thing about it is that
we can have fun while training for an undesirable ultimate use.
As some wise old bird said, "The definition of a superior pilot
is one who never puts himself in a position where he has to
use his superior skills". The same might be said of us shooters.
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I'm happy to see the mood on this post has lightened. :) I remembered seeing something about FTF on the last round in a clip on other posts, but I do not recall specifics. I assumed it meant failure to feed. As I recall, when I fired my R9s, it was so cold that I could only stand to load a couple of rounds at a time. After trying the first two rounds, there was no dent on the primer and I actually put them back to try later, but it was bothering me too bad, so I took them back out and it was then that it fired (same bullets that didn't fire before). The first round fired fine, but it was the second (last in the clip) that would not fire. I have only fired a few rounds through it and wanted to go this weekend but won't get the chance. I hope it was a combination of break-in and temperature (no carry gun will ever get that cold in your pocket). I hope to go shooting when I return home for Christmas. I'll let you all know what I find. Thanks for the help, everyone.
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This is an interesting post. I too have had some failures to fire and attributed them to not resetting the trigger fully. But I do have a tendency to pull the trigger very slowly since I am also interested in accuracy potential. When people say that you would never do that in an emergency situation, I disagree. Not every threatening situation will be at 5 yards. There may be, heaven forbid, a situation which calls for a superbly placed shot at 15 yards requiring careful aim with whatever pistol you happen to have with you. A defensive pistol must fire every time and convince me that it will until I totally rely on it. I am going to check to see if I can recreate the condition by purposedly slow firing and then purposedly not resetting the trigger to see which is the likely culprit. Will repost.
RTOhio
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Brand new to this board, so excuse me if I step on a couple of toes.
Simple engineering supports the fact that the hammer spring stores the same amount of energy, redardless of the rate of trigger pull, excepting only rearward inertia of the hammer, which has minimal mass.
Ohio, unlike Texas, gets COLD in the winter; cold enough to stiffen grease, and other lubricants, as might be found in the firing pin bore, or on the firing pin spring.
Another possibility, and a more likely one, is headspace/ case dimension.
I'm very interested in this pistol, so accurate resolution of this issue is also of great interest. Is there any chance the Brass still exists, identifiably, for measure???
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Almost every issue anyone's had has been resolved, I believe the concensus on the couple cases that weren't were most likely due to the shooter's hands not fitting the gun. I've never had a problem -- everytime I've pulled the trigger, it's gone bang -- with that said, my main suspiscion on these cases would be improper lubrication/cleaning --IMO, and having taken apart the trigger mechanism a couple times -- the only way cold would affect the firing of the gun would be ammo defects (I've noticed I have more FTFs and squibs from all guns if it's below freezing) and if you're using a lubricant that isn't rated for the temperature around the firing pin -- personally, I only let the tiniest bit of Mobil 1 0-30? near the pin to wick in, before I wipe it away -- or sometimes some break-free -- either way, I don't let much in -- the grease isn't anywhere near the firing pin -- and it worked wonderfully for me the couple times I shot it in PA during the winter.
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stash247,
Welcome to the forum!!
Lots of info here!! http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/
I know that I have not had a bit of problem with the pups that I have shot to date.. :) Cold or warm weather..
Thanks again for joining us!!
Brenden
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Stash - welcome from me also :)
Agreed re hammer energy - same spring so has to be! My only small rider to that is - there is IMO potential for an ultra rapid trigger pull to accelerate the hammer so fast to rear that on release it has actually travelled back a minute amount further thus compressing the mainspring a tad more - and so has imparted to it a small extra acceleration. Unlikely but I could see that as a possibility. Semantics too probably! ;)
I am certainly in the camp that places some possible blame on occasions toward lube. In my case altho I acknowledge that low temps can have an effect on grease - am more concerned over grease ''pollution'' - as I had a period of seeming problems with my SIG 226 - which turned out to be due to serious grease crud collection and significant stiffening effect.
Bottom line with the pup is - maintain recommended cleaning intervals.
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Sorry it has taken so long to repost. I haven't had too many chances to shoot lately, but last weekend I did manage to get out. Out here in Colorado it gets pretty cold. I saw the reference to Texas and wasn't sure if that was directed at me or not.
Here is the update (and background)...In response to the lube comments...I was shooting the first box of ammo through the brand new pistol...so it wasn't anything I did. I have continued to use the same ammo just to see how it worked out (I have no other 9mm anyway). I had a couple failures to fire, but continued to pull the trigger. At most it took three pulls (maybe 4) before it fired. The first time it did not fire was right after I pulled the trigger slowly. It was followed up by quick pulling and eventually it fired. Another shot was after a quick pull. Basically, it is not 100% consistent.
Once I get my hands on some gold dot I will let you know how things go. In closing, I found that while it does not always fire on the first trigger pull, follow-up pulls still work. Of the two or three rounds that did not fire on the first pull, all of them fired after subsequent pulls.
On a side note...this thing is still in the breaking in stage...has first 50 shots through it and now requires a cleaning/lubing.
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Keep us up to speed woo_woo - and hope things improve but - thus far I am considering the apparent light strikes as possibly a problem.
Either rounds are not settling fully into battery or, firing pin is short - something is affecting this somehow. Should not occur IMO even on a new gun.
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Woo_Woo -
First of all "ICK..; is the first thing that comes to mind...!"
Then I'll say I'm not clear as to why some folks find it necessary to give you a hard time about pulling the trigger slowly; it's not the wrong thing to do; it's a quite common thing to do, (IMHO..!) when things are right. (This DOES include high quality ammo by the way...) I've personally NEVER had a misfire w/ a combination of a properly operating handgun, and "Silvertips". "It should fire despite that technique!"
It's a simple fact "Small handguns w/ short barrels are difficult to fire accurately..", and MANY folks tend to take their time in THAT sort of a range training/ savoring-the-moment/ testing & practice type scenario. People confuse at times the difference between (Again IMHO..) primary combat type handguns, and what I consider to be more or less instinctive fire/ defensive/ last ditch/ OH C_AP..! - type handguns... This is honestly not a reflection on the quality, etc.. of these fine pistols, and really really not meant to get peoples "Dander" up..! Simply put "That is my take on it; I expect that High Quality handguns should do what we expect them to do; function always..! Our lives or those of our loved ones, may one day depend on it..!
Everyone - PLEASE believe me; this is NOT a "Battle Cry"; I like it here very much, and don't EVER want to get into it with ANY of you in a "Negative" way... Ever!
(erh)
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erh,
Welcome to the forum. Please come back often.
Yes, I agree with you. A pistol should always fire, regardless of how fast the trigger is pulled.
The good news is the factory will gladly correct any defects. Most of us have zero problems.
On very rare occasion, a shooter will not be compatible with the R9S, but that can happen with any small pistol.
For example, I think there have been a couple of occasions where multiple shooters at the factory found the gun to work perfectly, but the owner continued to have problems with the returned firearm.
Bill
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woo-woo, welcome to the forum. Your posts are fine and the info is important. Let us know how Gold Dots work when you get them. Also take it slow during the cleaning process and notice everything.
Tom
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erh - nice to have you on the forum. We don't always agree here - but we always respect each other. Post often.
Dave
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Well said, Dave.
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Just wanted to say "Thank you" to all the pleasant & understanding comments made in my direction; I will return often - Already feel right at home..!
Respectfully,
(erh)
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Bad cartridges to occur once in awhile...primer could be seated to deep due to a casing out of spec or could be a bad primer.